Clemens, Steroids, Media Scrutiny & Race

[WolvCub 17]

I think we've all by now learned that the most prominent name mentioned in the Mitchell Report that was not the subject of prior steroid investigations was Roger Clemens. Barry Bonds' name appears in the report under the BALCO category but his involvement with steroids has been public for a long while now. My question to the group is why do you think the media never scrutinized Clemens at nearly the same level as Bonds?

 

I understand much of the animus towards Bonds emanates from the fact that he is a dick and he was chasing after two of baseball's most cherished records - single season and career homeruns - but Roger Clemens was also eclipsing prominent pitching records while on the juice. Furthermore, the media had just as much reason to question why a late 30's pitcher was experiencing a renaissance, suddenly gaining pinpoint control, and adding 2-4 mph on his fastball. I've wrestled with this issue for a long while now and I don't like to make hasty race-based conclusions but the only explanation I have for why the media shielded Clemens but criticized Bonds is race.

 

Let's face it, the media that covers baseball is predominantly filled with white males and in this situation the baseball writers salivate at every opportunity to put Bonds down but they never throw any punches at Clemens. Why? If criticism naturally flows with who succeeds most than Clemens should have been scrutinized more heavily because he was the best pitcher in the Majors over the last 10 years. His pitching was exposed to a national audience because he's grew up with a big market team (Boston) and won championships with the biggest team of them all (Yankees). When the Red Sox traded Clemens to Toronto, Clemens was old, had no life on his fastball, and contemplated retirement. Then, all of a sudden, he resurrects his career at the same time everyone else was getting bigger. Hmmmm.

 

Also, look at Clemens' career in Houston. He started pitching for the Astros before the MLB instituted its steroid testing policy. After implementation of the test, Clemens would hold out until June. He always cited conditioning reasons - maybe he was conditioning by shooting up roids and avoiding the first round of testing. I also found it interesting that he would retire after every season until I realized that by retiring, he would not be subject to the off-season testing. Suddenly, it all starts to make sense.

 

If those sportswriters who hate Bonds and have suggested an asterisk be placed on his record have any intellectual integrity then they should demand an asterisk on Clemens' pitching records as well. After all, they are convicting Bonds in the court of public opinion based on testimony from trainers and teammates - why should they be any more responsible with convicting Clemens? There is no valid reason why the media turned a blind eye to a growing, fountain-of-youth experiencing Clemens while remaining so critical of Bonds other than the race of the two athletes.

 

If anyone else has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Laura
separate topic from mitchell report

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

because Roger isn't black? :-$

[third eye]

I think we've all by now learned that the most prominent name mentioned in the Mitchell Report that was not the subject of prior steroid investigations was Roger Clemens. Barry Bonds' name appears in the report under the BALCO category but his involvement with steroids has been public for a long while now. My question to the group is why do you think the media never scrutinized Clemens at nearly the same level as Bonds?

 

I understand much of the animus towards Bonds emanates from the fact that he is a dick and he was chasing after two of baseball's most cherished records - single season and career homeruns - but Roger Clemens was also eclipsing prominent pitching records while on the juice. Furthermore, the media had just as much reason to question why a late 30's pitcher was experiencing a renaissance, suddenly gaining pinpoint control, and adding 2-4 mph on his fastball. I've wrestled with this issue for a long while now and I don't like to make hasty race-based conclusions but the only explanation I have for why the media shielded Clemens but criticized Bonds is race.

 

Let's face it, the media that covers baseball is predominantly filled with white males and in this situation the baseball writers salivate at every opportunity to put Bonds down but they never throw any punches at Clemens. Why? If criticism naturally flows with who succeeds most than Clemens should have been scrutinized more heavily because he was the best pitcher in the Majors over the last 10 years. His pitching was exposed to a national audience because he's grew up with a big market team (Boston) and won championships with the biggest team of them all (Yankees). When the Red Sox traded Clemens to Toronto, Clemens was old, had no life on his fastball, and contemplated retirement. Then, all of a sudden, he resurrects his career at the same time everyone else was getting bigger. Hmmmm.

 

Also, look at Clemens' career in Houston. He started pitching for the Astros before the MLB instituted its steroid testing policy. After implementation of the test, Clemens would hold out until June. He always cited conditioning reasons - maybe he was conditioning by shooting up roids and avoiding the first round of testing. I also found it interesting that he would retire after every season until I realized that by retiring, he would not be subject to the off-season testing. Suddenly, it all starts to make sense.

 

If those sportswriters who hate Bonds and have suggested an asterisk be placed on his record have any intellectual integrity then they should demand an asterisk on Clemens' pitching records as well. After all, they are convicting Bonds in the court of public opinion based on testimony from trainers and teammates - why should they be any more responsible with convicting Clemens? There is no valid reason why the media turned a blind eye to a growing, fountain-of-youth experiencing Clemens while remaining so critical of Bonds other than the race of the two athletes.

 

If anyone else has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

 

 

Interesting ideas. I have no interest in defending Clemens, but I do want to offer some facts that seem contrary to the story above. The source says he first injected Clemens in late 1998. However, his first season in Toronto, 1997, he pitched 264 innings with an ERA+ of 221 and a WHIP of 1.03. Seems to me he was in no way washed up at that point. His worst season statistically was first one with the Yanks, while pitching in the same division as before.

 

Having said that, and in no way being a race-baiter, I think you do make some interesting points about his treatment relative to Bonds. However, it is far more likely a result of him having a much more media friendly persona and pitching in big markets. Also, I think it is reflective of the fact that the public generally doesn't associate steroids with pitchers. Huge byceps and home runs are better fodder for the media steroid frenzy.

[Mephistopheles]

I don't know how long ago I told people Clemens was a roider. People were like no, he's a workohaulic. I'm like no, he's classless jackass. god i hate clemens so much. i hope more dirt on him is turned up. it would be great. for the record, deer park has turned on andy pettitte (although the steroid thing is only going to add on to the rift there)

 

people should just learn to listen to meph yo

[jaydee]

obviously, race is a factor. this country will be quicker to judge and harsher on blacks than whites just because this is the USA, look at the history of the country

[TruffleShuffle]

bonds hits the ball really, really far and is really, really good at doing that. steroids add strength, and naturally one associates home run power with strength more than it associates pitching with strength. that's why probably half of the people who use(d) roids were pitchers, but you hear mostly about guys like bonds, sosa, mcgwire (pretty sure he's white) and giambi (probably also white). clemens was probably the most widely-rumored steroid user among pitchers, but you still heard way more about a significant number of hitters than you did about him.

 

not saying that race could have a little to do with it, but given that barry bonds is the best hitter of our generation and has broken the single-season and all-time home run records, it's natural that the spotlight has shone brightest on him. in fact, if bonds had kept cranking out about 40 homers a year, i'm fairly certain that mcgwire and maybe sosa would still be the most talked-about players when it comes to steroids. but bonds hit 73 in a year and was still cranking them out at an incredible clip during the few times that he got something to hit, and he invited the attention on himself.

[Wheelimus]

The biggest difference, I think, was that we didn't have the "in your face" quality with Clemens that we had with Bonds. I mean, just looking at Bonds you got the idea that something wasn't on the up and up. A mans head doesn't magically grow as he's pushing 40. And he doesn't just suddenly become Hulk Bonds. But Clemens never had that quality. The feeling I always got was "how does that fat dude throw so hard?"

 

And it's not like we had ongoing criminal investigations/BALCO to tie Clemens to anything.

 

Also the fact that Clemens suppliers and such apparently were better at keeping their mouths shut. It took the Mitchell investigation and threats of criminal penalty to get anyone to talk.

[biittner77]

What about Jason Giambi and Mark McGwire? They have both been named as steroid users and were trashed by the media. The difference is that McGwire didn't lie about it and Giambi accepted responsiblity for what he had done. Bonds lied to a grand jury. There's a big difference.

 

Race probably plays some role in all of this but how much we won't really know until we see how the media handles things with Clemens. He is arguably as big of a jerk as Bonds.

[CubColtPacer]

I think it's the pitchers/hitters thing. When a general fan talks about steroids, he wants to mention Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, etc. All of them are hitters. All the people Congress called to testify that they actually suspected were hitters. Even though more pitchers have been caught for steroid use than hitters, pitchers are much more easily believed that they are using it to "help with injuries" rather than to gain a true competitive advantage by being able to hit the ball farther. It's a double standard, but for some reason fans only care about steroids with sluggers, and not steroids with pitchers or steroids in other sports.

[jersey cubs fan]

http://images.jrcinteractive.com/binaries/FSImage/2007/12/13/1197605170784_web_12_14_page_one_EPS_copy.jpg

 

Race may be a factor, but I don't think it's close to the top factor. There are many.

 

First and foremost, there has been real dirt on Bonds for a long time, and really nothing on Clemens. That's kind of important.

 

But also, Bonds has treated the media like crap forever, and Clemens has more or less played the game. Is that some sort of justification? Probably not, but when you talk about how the media treats a guy, it matters.

 

The big hullabaloo has been about sacred records and all that nonsense people who are stuck in the past are infatuated with. And the HR was that sacred record. Bonds hits them, Roger's just a pitcher. HR records are very easily tied to steroid discussions. What is less a part of the story is how these drugs help put off the effects of aging.

 

There's been a backlash against the HR to some extent, with more people wanting to see what baseball supposedly used to be about. That means things like pitching, defense, small ball, and other things, are glorified, while big burly HR hitters are ridiculed.

 

It'll be interesting to see how the media handles this part of the story. It's pretty clear that so far Clemens' name has been the biggest part. Everything I've heard has been very anti-Clemens, guys calling for him not to make the hall, people calling him a fraud, asking for Cy Young awards to be returned, etc. Roger is most likely done with the game, so it will never be just like the Bonds situation, with him still playing after his news broke. It's really difficult to actually compare the two situations and come to any conclusion that strongly supports the idea that race played a significant role. But I'm sure there's a bigot or three out there who revel in the black Bonds downfall saga while ignoring the Clemens issue.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think it's the pitchers/hitters thing. When a general fan talks about steroids, he wants to mention Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, etc. All of them are hitters. All the people Congress called to testify that they actually suspected were hitters. Even though more pitchers have been caught for steroid use than hitters, pitchers are much more easily believed that they are using it to "help with injuries" rather than to gain a true competitive advantage by being able to hit the ball farther. It's a double standard, but for some reason fans only care about steroids with sluggers, and not steroids with pitchers or steroids in other sports.

 

Well said. I think it's that, along with the fact that there has been a lot of dirt on Bonds already out in the open, and very little, if any, on Clemens. The players have a "don't snitch" policy, and for the most part, the media has played right along. They all have names and stories they have chosen not to run with, some for journalistic reasons (burden of proof/credible sources), and some probably because they like some guys and don't like others, or are just trying to be part of the crowd.

[BigbadB]

The Clemens stuff just broke yesterday. Can we give it a bit more time before we determine who has been more publicly caned?

 

I'm almost certain that Clemens could be hated just as much as Barry Bonds before this is all over. But, to be hated as much as Barry Bonds is not such an easy task. Bonds crapped on fans long before the first steroid story broke.

 

I didn't watch most of the Mitchell report stuff yesterday, but the one thing that I did hear and struck me as rather stupid was Clemens stating that this trainer is lying to avoid jail time. If I am to understand Clemens correctly, MacNamee made a bunch of stuff up to avoid prosecution?

 

Wouldn't perjury and slander be a worse offense than buying some mail order steroids for someone else's use?

 

If there is one thing I hate more than guys who used steroids, it's guys who lie about whether or not they took steroids. THAT is what will end up being Clemens undoing.

 

I know, I know. Innocent until proven guilty. Not necessarily in the court of public opinion, however.

 

Some of these guys should think about how lying cost Pete Rose a whole lot more than just telling the truth.

[wade]

This is a heck of a topic and will be interesting to watch. I'm one of those who's wondered aloud whether Bonds' race plays a part in his villification. And I do stress "part" because his jerkness and "assault on the most hallowed records in all of sports" as Bob Costas would put it, certainly play a role.

 

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

[jersey cubs fan]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

 

I can tell you that the media in NY is ripping him to shreds. Local tv news is always the most tame, but they talked about it. Radio guys are shredding him. All the blowhards who blew hard on Bonds are blowing just as hard on Roger. So far.

[CuseCubFan69]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

 

I can tell you that the media in NY is ripping him to shreds. Local tv news is always the most tame, but they talked about it. Radio guys are shredding him. All the blowhards who blew hard on Bonds are blowing just as hard on Roger. So far.

 

Do you think that they would have been this hard on him if he was coming back to the Yanks? Is Pettite getting ripped as well there?

[SouthSideRyan]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor.

 

They aren't really accurate comparisons because Bonds was the 1st big name. The 1st one always takes it worse than the next guy because it's not as big of a deal anymore.

 

That said, Bonds was only the first because they seemed to hunt him down

[wade]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

 

I can tell you that the media in NY is ripping him to shreds. Local tv news is always the most tame, but they talked about it. Radio guys are shredding him. All the blowhards who blew hard on Bonds are blowing just as hard on Roger. So far.

 

Good. I admittedly haven't heard much because I'm busy at work- but on the way in this morning Peter Gammons, in the portion I heard, is very slow to judgemnent, almost blowing off Clemens' culpability. But, I didn't hear the whole thing either.

[UMFan83]

Race isn't a large factor at all. Bonds is ripped apart because he was the first really big name implicated to use steroids and he broke not one but two of baseballs most glamorized and hallowed records. Tell me why Gary Sheffield wasn't ripped very hard when he was caught up in this mess? I think Jason Giambi was hit harder than Sheff.

[jersey cubs fan]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

 

I can tell you that the media in NY is ripping him to shreds. Local tv news is always the most tame, but they talked about it. Radio guys are shredding him. All the blowhards who blew hard on Bonds are blowing just as hard on Roger. So far.

 

Good. I admittedly haven't heard much because I'm busy at work- but on the way in this morning Peter Gammons, in the portion I heard, is very slow to judgemnent, almost blowing off Clemens' culpability. But, I didn't hear the whole thing either.

 

It would be one thing if Peter was regularly ripping Bonds, but then went soft on Roger. But Peter has been among the more levelheaded in this entire debate.

 

Cuse, Pettite has taken a back seat, but he's being talked about. Mets fans are sending all sorts of "we got cheated in 2000" emails about all the Yankee pitchers on that team that juiced. It's going to hang around awhile.

[CuseCubFan69]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

 

I can tell you that the media in NY is ripping him to shreds. Local tv news is always the most tame, but they talked about it. Radio guys are shredding him. All the blowhards who blew hard on Bonds are blowing just as hard on Roger. So far.

 

Good. I admittedly haven't heard much because I'm busy at work- but on the way in this morning Peter Gammons, in the portion I heard, is very slow to judgemnent, almost blowing off Clemens' culpability. But, I didn't hear the whole thing either.

 

It would be one thing if Peter was regularly ripping Bonds, but then went soft on Roger. But Peter has been among the more levelheaded in this entire debate.

 

Cuse, Pettite has taken a back seat, but he's being talked about. Mets fans are sending all sorts of "we got cheated in 2000" emails about all the Yankee pitchers on that team that juiced. It's going to hang around awhile.

 

I'm sure they'll be creative as heck as well! When Clemens threw that piece of broken bat at Piazza has got to be used in some way or another.

[Soul]

If people call for Clemens' 300 wins to be wiped from the record books and talk about how he has basically taught young kids everywhere that it's o.k. to cheat in order to excel in life and whatnot, it'll be pretty obvious that race is not that big of a factor. However, if people say that they don't believe any of these accusations at all, or that he probably just took them to recover from injuries, or that he's never lied about it (I'm sure he made comments about Canseco citing him in his book - I think he was talking about suing for libel, etc), then I'll continue to wonder about race.

 

I can tell you that the media in NY is ripping him to shreds. Local tv news is always the most tame, but they talked about it. Radio guys are shredding him. All the blowhards who blew hard on Bonds are blowing just as hard on Roger. So far.

 

Good. I admittedly haven't heard much because I'm busy at work- but on the way in this morning Peter Gammons, in the portion I heard, is very slow to judgemnent, almost blowing off Clemens' culpability. But, I didn't hear the whole thing either.

 

It would be one thing if Peter was regularly ripping Bonds, but then went soft on Roger. But Peter has been among the more levelheaded in this entire debate.

 

Cuse, Pettite has taken a back seat, but he's being talked about. Mets fans are sending all sorts of "we got cheated in 2000" emails about all the Yankee pitchers on that team that juiced. It's going to hang around awhile.

 

I'm sure they'll be creative as heck as well! When Clemens threw that piece of broken bat at Piazza has got to be used in some way or another.

 

Roid Rage!!!! Oh, it all makes so much sense now!

[Guest]

One of the things that got Bonds in the news long ago was that there has been far more proof of Bonds doing steroids then there ever has with Clemens. Sure people speculated that Clemens did steroids but there was never anything linking him to the drugs. When BALCO got raided back in 2003, Bonds' personal trainer, Greg Anderson, was heavily embroiled in that whole thing and there was an automatic link of steroids->Anderson->Bonds. Things got even worse for Bonds when 'Game of Shadows' came out. I'm not surprised that Clemens has escaped vilification by the general public up to this point but I expect him to be criticized just as much as Bonds has been and think those two will be mentioned in the same breath when it comes to talking about steroids.

[bhogg]

the mitchell report has been out 3 days.

 

Were we supposed to let out years and years worth of hate on him in only 3 days?

 

give it time and people will dislike clemens as much as bonds.

[Wheelimus]

The Pettite confession is going to really hurt. It lends a lot of credibility to the informants information.

[Lockes Eye Scar]

Really suprised how Pettite basically threw Fat Roger under the bus.