Cubs will allow Prior to walk

[Sammy Sofa]

We're usually not so argumentative around here.

 

You're wrong, a liar and a stupidhead.

[NYF]

since he's the one making stuff up, i say he should have to prove himself right. why should i have to prove him wrong?

 

unicorns exist. prove me wrong.

 

1. Its an opinion, not someone "making stuff up."

2. There is no burden of proof on anyone initiating an opinion, as it is an opinion. This isn't a court case, and there are no incontrovertible facts related to situational opinions. The opponent of that person positing a qualitative opinion always has the burden of proof in proving them wrong, because they chose to challenge that opinion. If you feel that he's "making stuff up," the only two real options are either to (a.) ignore it, or (b.) disagree with it using identical qualitative premises. Disagreeing with it using incomplete quantitative measures doesn't really do much to prove it false.

 

ha! completely concur, dude. nice to see a bit of critical thinking tossed about.

 

lawyer, or law student?

 

either way, one must disclose that incontrovertible facts do not ALWAYS equate to obvious conclusions. in fact, the opposite is true.

 

and for the record: i'm glad Prior is gone.

 

peace...

[Outshined_One]

since he's the one making stuff up, i say he should have to prove himself right. why should i have to prove him wrong?

 

unicorns exist. prove me wrong.

 

1. Its an opinion, not someone "making stuff up."

2. There is no burden of proof on anyone initiating an opinion, as it is an opinion. This isn't a court case, and there are no incontrovertible facts related to situational opinions. The opponent of that person positing a qualitative opinion always has the burden of proof in proving them wrong, because they chose to challenge that opinion. If you feel that he's "making stuff up," the only two real options are either to (a.) ignore it, or (b.) disagree with it using identical qualitative premises. Disagreeing with it using incomplete quantitative measures doesn't really do much to prove it false.

 

Let me guess, you just took your Evidence final? :lol:

[Rob]

I'm not getting into debates with lawyers, as I treasure my soul.

 

However, I will say this and be off.

 

Over the course of a 162 game baseball season, a quantitative approach has significantly more value than a qualitative approach. Most people simply do not have the mental capacity to temper selective perception and cognitive dissonance over such a long and involved timespan.

[NYF]

since he's the one making stuff up, i say he should have to prove himself right. why should i have to prove him wrong?

 

unicorns exist. prove me wrong.

 

1. Its an opinion, not someone "making stuff up."

2. There is no burden of proof on anyone initiating an opinion, as it is an opinion. This isn't a court case, and there are no incontrovertible facts related to situational opinions. The opponent of that person positing a qualitative opinion always has the burden of proof in proving them wrong, because they chose to challenge that opinion. If you feel that he's "making stuff up," the only two real options are either to (a.) ignore it, or (b.) disagree with it using identical qualitative premises. Disagreeing with it using incomplete quantitative measures doesn't really do much to prove it false.

 

Let me guess, you just took your Evidence final? :lol:

 

spoken as a true Mod. let me guess, you couldn't find a bigger waste of bandwidth to use as a sig?

[WilcoFan]

 

lawyer, or law student?

 

either way, one must disclose that incontrovertible facts do not ALWAYS equate to obvious conclusions. in fact, the opposite is true.

 

and for the record: i'm glad Prior is gone.

 

peace...

 

No, not a lawyer or a law student. Decided to back out two weeks before classes began at Northwestern. Didn't have a spare $150,000 lying around.

 

That said, I love the logic related to the study of law. Unfortunately, I found that very little of that logic applies to the actual practice.

[NYF]

I'm not getting into debates with lawyers, as I treasure my soul.

 

However, I will say this and be off.

 

Over the course of a 162 game baseball season, a quantitative approach has significantly more value than a qualitative approach. Most people simply do not have the mental capacity to temper selective perception and cognitive dissonance over such a long and involved timespan.

 

great point you raise with cognitive dissonance. 'justification of effort' theory certainly applies here. we attempt to validate facts that disagree with the concept of 'self', or what we view as the 'norm', or our perception of 'norm'...

[WilcoFan]

I'm not getting into debates with lawyers, as I treasure my soul.

 

However, I will say this and be off.

 

Over the course of a 162 game baseball season, a quantitative approach has significantly more value than a qualitative approach. Most people simply do not have the mental capacity to temper selective perception and cognitive dissonance over such a long and involved timespan.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, and in 90-95% of the discussions related to baseball (especially discussions that involve predictive analysis), quantitative stats should make up the bulk of the assessment. The argument Cuse was making was unique, though, as it involved a very specific set of conditions that are difficult to replicate using quantitative stats. Most of the time, I would certainly side with quantitative stats (especially against those who want to argue that Prior "stole money for the last three years"-ugh).

[NYF]

 

lawyer, or law student?

 

either way, one must disclose that incontrovertible facts do not ALWAYS equate to obvious conclusions. in fact, the opposite is true.

 

and for the record: i'm glad Prior is gone.

 

peace...

 

No, not a lawyer or a law student. Decided to back out two weeks before classes began at Northwestern. Didn't have a spare $150,000 lying around.

 

That said, I love the logic related to the study of law. Unfortunately, I found that very little of that logic applies to the actual practice.

 

gotcha. i was close to law school at Marquette, myself. decided against it due to ethical reasons.

Psych major now, Human Services dual major. post more, dude.

 

peace...

[UK1679666180]

Fwiw, I didn't see enough from Prior from a negative standpoint to say that he was mentally of fell apart due to mental breakdowns.

 

I thought he was always tough enough both mentally and physically, just was overworked with bad mechanics and it caught up to him late in '03.

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

No, not .......student. Decided to back out two..... Northwestern. Didn't have a spare $150,000 lying around.

 

wussy your real name is Mark Prior, isnt it?

 

:P

 

while I agree statistics tend to be easier to rely on, and I question this intire arguement especially considering what could be conceived as VERY personal attacks from both abuck and Cuse, I think its time we get back to the threads title. Mods, ca you please clean this thread of the old tired crap? it was about Mark Prior being non-tendered. lets keep it there..

[minnesotacubsfan]

Fwiw, I didn't see enough from Prior from a negative standpoint to say that he was mentally of fell apart due to mental breakdowns.

 

I thought he was always tough enough both mentally and physically, just was overworked with bad mechanics and it caught up to him late in '03.

 

 

yea, but then there are pitchers who survive those conditions. maybe marks body isnt as strong as those other guys. maybe it isnt entirely physical, maybe it is partially mental. idk.

[UK1679666180]

I don't believe that for a second, you seen his stuff go down before he did. I doubt he was ever 100% healthy after '03, I still think that trying to pitch while fatigued and injured with that heel problem did him in. He wasn't the same in '04 as he was in '03.

 

Pitchers don't survive with the injuries had, they go under the knife, but 1st they try and pitch thru it and show lack of velocity and sharpness ala Prior.

[98navigator]

As for the steroid issue. That little bogus list of names that included Prior and Wood seems to be doing its job. CNBC commentators were talking about big names taking a fall, like Clemens, Pettite and "the entire Cubs pitching staff." And for effect, the host repeated the line, "The Chicago Cubs pitching staff."

 

 

It's a good thing we know for a fact that Prior did roids.

 

What a load of garbage. It's like they are trying to put the spotlight on the Cubs so as to deflect from what's going on with the Yankees

 

Yeah, I guess by entire Cubs pitching staff they are implying that everyone of the former Cubs on the Report, and the bogus list,were doing PEDs while Cubs... Nice assumption. :eyeroll:

 

Prior

Wood

Mercker

Farnsworth

Heredia (who was suspended under some other team's watch)

et al

[minnesotacubsfan]

I don't believe that for a second, you seen his stuff go down before he did. I doubt he was ever 100% healthy after '03, I still think that trying to pitch while fatigued and injured with that heel problem did him in. He wasn't the same in '04 as he was in '03.

 

Pitchers don't survive with the injuries had, they go under the knife, but 1st they try and pitch thru it and show lack of velocity and sharpness ala Prior.

 

could be, but then why wanst he screaming about it? bravado? if thats the case, he did himself in.

[UK1679666180]

He tried pitching thru it b/c they couldn't find anything. They'd repair minor fraying, he'd rehab, come back w/poor results compared to '03, shut him down and say he's needs rest, go thru the process again. Then, they finally find the damage and it's where it's at today.

 

I think people are reaching if they're upset with Prior for not pitching more since '03. As far as the non-tender, this was a business decision on both sides, people need to suck it up and deal with it.

 

He's gone, move on. Hopefully, he'll be in a spot to get healthy and get back to where he was and the Cubs can progress from last year and get further into the post-season.

Edited December 14, 2007 by UK

[questionmarkgrace]

I think there is a great chance that Prior's chronic injuries were a manifestation of compensating for an injured shoulder rather than just being injury plagued. Ive got to believe that his shoulder problems led to his achilles problems in 04 and 05. Wood is another great example. His arm issues eventually led to knee surgery. The body's reaction to a mis-alignment is amazing.

[minnesotacubsfan]

He tried pitching thru it b/c they couldn't find anything. They'd repair minor fraying, he'd rehab, come back w/poor results compared to '03, shut him down and say he's needs rest, go thru the process again. Then, they finally find the damage and it's where it's at today.

 

I think people are reaching if they're upset with Prior for not pitching more since '03. As far as the non-tender, this was a business decision on both sides, people need to suck it up and deal with it.

 

He's gone, move on. Hopefully, he'll be in a spot to get healthy and get back to where he was and the Cubs can progress from last year and get further into the post-season.

 

yea, ok. I dont dis-agree with you. thing is, none of us really know. all of that could have happened. and you are right, he is gone. that is hard to deal with.

[BigbadB]

As I said a day or so ago in another thread, I think the Cubs should have tendered him. There's a chance (not a guarantee) he'll pitch effectively this year, and there's a chance (not a guarantee) that, with a new regime in place by the end of the season, he might have reconsidered his willingness to return. I think it was a chance worth gambling on. However, given that the Cubs decided not to bring him back, I'm moving on. This isn't going to ruin the excitement of signing Fukudome for me. I was a Cub fan long before Prior joined them, and I will be long after he left. I'm a fan of the team more than of individual players. I really do think that ultimately there was blame to be placed on both parties, and both parties decided that a fresh start was needed.

 

My feelings also, pretty much. It sucks, but what can you do?

 

Hey, anyone want my Prior road jersey?

[Rob]

As I said a day or so ago in another thread, I think the Cubs should have tendered him. There's a chance (not a guarantee) he'll pitch effectively this year, and there's a chance (not a guarantee) that, with a new regime in place by the end of the season, he might have reconsidered his willingness to return. I think it was a chance worth gambling on. However, given that the Cubs decided not to bring him back, I'm moving on. This isn't going to ruin the excitement of signing Fukudome for me. I was a Cub fan long before Prior joined them, and I will be long after he left. I'm a fan of the team more than of individual players. I really do think that ultimately there was blame to be placed on both parties, and both parties decided that a fresh start was needed.

 

My feelings also, pretty much. It sucks, but what can you do?

 

Hey, anyone want my Prior road jersey?

 

Are you giving it away, or trying to sell it?

[Sammy Sofa]

As I said a day or so ago in another thread, I think the Cubs should have tendered him. There's a chance (not a guarantee) he'll pitch effectively this year, and there's a chance (not a guarantee) that, with a new regime in place by the end of the season, he might have reconsidered his willingness to return. I think it was a chance worth gambling on. However, given that the Cubs decided not to bring him back, I'm moving on. This isn't going to ruin the excitement of signing Fukudome for me. I was a Cub fan long before Prior joined them, and I will be long after he left. I'm a fan of the team more than of individual players. I really do think that ultimately there was blame to be placed on both parties, and both parties decided that a fresh start was needed.

 

My feelings also, pretty much. It sucks, but what can you do?

 

Hey, anyone want my Prior road jersey?

 

What size is it?

 

How funky is it?

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

How funky is it?

 

lol its coming from a guy named "BigBadB", what do you think??

[BigbadB]

As I said a day or so ago in another thread, I think the Cubs should have tendered him. There's a chance (not a guarantee) he'll pitch effectively this year, and there's a chance (not a guarantee) that, with a new regime in place by the end of the season, he might have reconsidered his willingness to return. I think it was a chance worth gambling on. However, given that the Cubs decided not to bring him back, I'm moving on. This isn't going to ruin the excitement of signing Fukudome for me. I was a Cub fan long before Prior joined them, and I will be long after he left. I'm a fan of the team more than of individual players. I really do think that ultimately there was blame to be placed on both parties, and both parties decided that a fresh start was needed.

 

My feelings also, pretty much. It sucks, but what can you do?

 

Hey, anyone want my Prior road jersey?

 

What size is it?

 

How funky is it?

 

Alright, I see I'm creating a windstorm. I'll send it to Laura to use as a future prize on NSBB. It's an XL and probably only worn 3 times.

[Rob]

As I said a day or so ago in another thread, I think the Cubs should have tendered him. There's a chance (not a guarantee) he'll pitch effectively this year, and there's a chance (not a guarantee) that, with a new regime in place by the end of the season, he might have reconsidered his willingness to return. I think it was a chance worth gambling on. However, given that the Cubs decided not to bring him back, I'm moving on. This isn't going to ruin the excitement of signing Fukudome for me. I was a Cub fan long before Prior joined them, and I will be long after he left. I'm a fan of the team more than of individual players. I really do think that ultimately there was blame to be placed on both parties, and both parties decided that a fresh start was needed.

 

My feelings also, pretty much. It sucks, but what can you do?

 

Hey, anyone want my Prior road jersey?

 

What size is it?

 

How funky is it?

 

Alright, I see I'm creating a windstorm. I'll send it to Laura to use as a future prize on NSBB. It's an XL and probably only worn 3 times.

 

I hope it's a dance contest. I'll win that jersey!

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

Sorry if this has already been posted but Hendry was interviewed on Comcast Sports Net and he said (besides indicating that he and the Prior camp left on good terms) that he talked to Prior's agent and that the Cubs wouldn't be opposed to bringing Mark back in the near future or at a later date. Hendry's certainly open to that.

 

One other thing I wanted to mention and I think it's already been expressed by others (besides that the Cubs did the right thing), is that it really would have been in the best interests of Prior to stay with the Cubs, rehab, hopfully pitch well and THEN file for free agency. He should fire his agent over such bad advice OR could it be that Mark could care less what the Cubs offered him--- he just wanted to get the "H" out of Chicago and sign with someone else.