Rosenthal: Reds, Cordero Agree on Deal

[UK1679666180]

And who exactly is this guy you speak of?

 

You think the salary difference between what Dotel likely will get compared to Cordero is worth what could've been used to lock up some of that offensive core?

[Yestheydo]

It's hard to defend a team dumb enough to hire Dusty Baker as manager (hint hint) but I think what Reds fans are happy about is that they finally decided to throw money at one guy who's actually a good player, rather than a few million here or there at the Stantons and Cormiers of the world. Say what you want about the contract, but this will make them a better team right away -- much like the Soriano contract did for the Cubs last year.

 

Was there a better way for them to get the pitching they need? Maybe, but I think it's interesting that Krivsky's big attempt to fix the bullpen through trade (Kearns/ Lopez) was met with similar know-it-all snottiness. Maybe, just maybe, other GMs simply won't make the trades the messageboard geniuses think they will, so in reality a guy with a mandate to win now and a track record for scoring good players for next to nothing sometimes has to hand out a bad contract. At least they're only stuck with Cordero for half the time the Cubs will be stuck with Soriano.

[UK1679666180]

Look at the upcoming contracts for Cincy, Arroyo is due for a raise after next year as his Harang, Griffey is set to make 4 mil more after this season and Phillips and Encarnacion will be due for a nice raise as they get into their arby years. Dunn will be a FA soon as well.

[nilodnayr]

It's hard to defend a team dumb enough to hire Dusty Baker as manager (hint hint) but I think what Reds fans are happy about is that they finally decided to throw money at one guy who's actually a good player, rather than a few million here or there at the Stantons and Cormiers of the world. Say what you want about the contract, but this will make them a better team right away -- much like the Soriano contract did for the Cubs last year.

 

Was there a better way for them to get the pitching they need? Maybe, but I think it's interesting that Krivsky's big attempt to fix the bullpen through trade (Kearns/ Lopez) was met with similar know-it-all snottiness. Maybe, just maybe, other GMs simply won't make the trades the messageboard geniuses think they will, so in reality a guy with a mandate to win now and a track record for scoring good players for next to nothing sometimes has to hand out a bad contract. At least they're only stuck with Cordero for half the time the Cubs will be stuck with Soriano.

 

Huh? How did the Kearns/Lopez trade work out for them? Maybe it was met with "know-it-all snottiness" because compared to Krivsky, my [expletive] three-legged dog knows it all. And I provided a list of players on the previous that were FAs. If the Reds wanted to improve their BP, they should have signed a couple of them for the same or less money than they gave to Cordero.

[SouthSideRyan]

lol @ Cubs fans talking about bad contracts.

 

Why? Because they Cubs didn't get him?

 

If the Cubs had signed him for that deal, this board would have melted down with the people who hated the deal. Many people on this board don't like committing a decent percentage of the payroll to the bullpen to the first place. They also don't like multi-year deals for relievers. They also don't like signing guys in their 30's to long-term contracts. Finally, many think the position of closer is overrated to begin with. Cordero fits under all of the above, and while he'll likely be pretty productive he's not productive enough to be that big of a percentage of the Reds overall payroll.

What? You are talking about a team that was 29th in baseball in blown saves last year.

 

With only 6 of them from the closer. Perhaps you should've spent less on a setup man and gotten the same value instead of pushing Weathers back into higher leverage spots where he'll undoubtedly inflict more damage.

[SouthSideRyan]

The last time Reds fans were ecstatic that they finally made a big splash in the FA market, and the team was showing a commitment to winning and plugging their most glaring holes they signed Eric Milton to a 3 year deal.

 

I think penciling Burton is as a lockdown reliever is a little risky after checking out his minor league #s.

[Post Count Padder]

Didn't Burton get shelled this season or am I thinking of another Reds reliever?

[Yestheydo]

Didn't Burton get shelled this season or am I thinking of another Reds reliever?

You must be thinking of all their other ones

[badnews]

At least they're only stuck with Cordero for half the time the Cubs will be stuck with Soriano.

 

Lame. Cordero is averaging, what, not enough $6 million less a year than Soriano on his contract?

 

This is stupid. Closer is the easiest high cost role you can bumble into cheaply. The Blue Jays spent a fortune on B. J. Ryan and he got hurt, and they found a great replacement in a cast-off from San Francisco.

[XZero771679666304]

At least they're only stuck with Cordero for half the time the Cubs will be stuck with Soriano.

 

Lame. Cordero is averaging, what, not enough $6 million less a year than Soriano on his contract?

 

This is stupid. Closer is the easiest high cost role you can bumble into cheaply. The Blue Jays spent a fortune on B. J. Ryan and he got hurt, and they found a great replacement in a cast-off from San Francisco.

 

 

The closer role is really such a transitory thing.

 

Outside of a handful of elite closers, you really have no idea what you are getting from year to year. I think paying any reliever that much money is just ridiculous. I would much rather pay Soriano 18 million than Cordero 12. And that's saying something.

[badnews]

What role can you fill most easily through dumpster diving?

 

1) Ace starting pitcher

2) Good hitting/defense shortstop

3) Franchise catcher

4) Closer

 

Yeah. I mean, where else in baseball can a guy in such a hyped up, well-paid role get injured, and you stick some bum in his place and lose nothing? If Russell Martin gets injured, you're losing something. If Grady Sizemore gets injured, the Indians are missing out on something. If elite closer B.J. Ryan gets injured... Jeremy Accardo does his job just as well? What about flamethrowing youngster Chris Ray? Oh! Apparently Jamie Walker can do his job just as well. Where was J. J. Putz two or three years ago? True or false: Bobby Jenks was picked up off the scrap heap? We've got Joe Borowski second in saves and Kevin Gregg picked off the scrap heap doing it well. This is a job so difficult to do that guys who have been mediocre all of their career can suddenly excel at relieving, like Salomon Torres from 2004-2006. Give me a break.

 

The Reds are just shell-shocked from that Danny Graves business so they have to make ridiculous trades and throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. This is an organization that was duped into thinking Todd Coffey was a closer because "he runs from the bullpen to the mound and we like that kind of spirit and gumption."

[SouthSideRyan]

The one thing I'll add is that Cordero had a horrendous defense behind him last year, so he'll likely improve as far as his AVG allowed on BIP, but I don't know enough about Cordero to know how much that affected him. And it's 5 AM so F that noise.

[badnews]

If every pitcher's opponent BABIP heads back toward the median the Cubs are in a crap ton of trouble.

[CubColtPacer]

The one thing I'll add is that Cordero had a horrendous defense behind him last year, so he'll likely improve as far as his AVG allowed on BIP, but I don't know enough about Cordero to know how much that affected him. And it's 5 AM so F that noise.

 

True, but Cordero also had the best defensive team that the Brewers could put out there because of Yost's endless defensive subs whenever the team had the lead. For example, he rarely had to pitch with Braun at 3rd.

[SouthSideRyan]

If every pitcher's opponent BABIP heads back toward the median the Cubs are in a crap ton of trouble.

 

The Cubs had a very good defense, that's the point.

 

And good point CCP, neglected to think about that.

[badnews]

I'm not sure how repeatable that good of a defense is next year though. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but what, Soriano was +19, Jacque Jones was +25 in center field, Aramis was +21 at 3rd, etc.

[Rob]

This is a hilarious contract.

 

Just to illustrate the closer thing, I thought I'd bring up the one aspect of Billy Beane's tenure that nobody can argue with... he's done a pretty good job finding closers for pennies on the dollar.

 

Beane took over in 1997. Billy Taylor was his closer. In 1999 he flipped Taylor to the Mets for Jason Isringhausen. He let Isringhausen walk before the 2002 season, pocketed the draft picks, and traded Eric Hinske (meh) and Justin Miller to the Blue Jays for Billy Koch. Koch became the new closer (after posting an ERA above league average the year before). He let Koch's value get pumped back up, and then traded him to the White Sox with a couple minor leaguers for Keith Foulke, a former first round catcher, and a couple other minor names. Again, Beane threw Foulke in the closer role (after he had lost it the year before), pumped his value way up, and pocketed the draft picks.

 

Even when he's failed, like with Octavio Dotel, he didn't give up too much. He gave up a couple prospects with limited ceilings in Mark Teahen and Mike Wood, aiming to hold onto Dotel until he got a good trade offer or could get the draft picks. Dotel got injured, but Wood is never gonna be missed, and Teahen had no place on the A's. It was certainly worth the risk.

 

And recently, he drafted a guy and put him in as the closer. Street is costing them basically nothing.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a good general manager will know better than to sink a good chunk of his payroll into a guy who pitches maybe 70 innings a year. In fact, closers are extremely easy to find, either from other systems or within your own. There's no reason you should ever sink that kind of money into a reliever, unless they're one of the extremely few that exhibit little to no variance in year-to-year performance and the club having enough already in their payroll that it's just a splash in the bucket (Rivera being one of the few).

[Yestheydo]

This is a hilarious contract.

 

Just to illustrate the closer thing, I thought I'd bring up the one aspect of Billy Beane's tenure that nobody can argue with... he's done a pretty good job finding closers for pennies on the dollar.

 

Beane took over in 1997. Billy Taylor was his closer. In 1999 he flipped Taylor to the Mets for Jason Isringhausen. He let Isringhausen walk before the 2002 season, pocketed the draft picks, and traded Eric Hinske (meh) and Justin Miller to the Blue Jays for Billy Koch. Koch became the new closer (after posting an ERA above league average the year before). He let Koch's value get pumped back up, and then traded him to the White Sox with a couple minor leaguers for Keith Foulke, a former first round catcher, and a couple other minor names. Again, Beane threw Foulke in the closer role (after he had lost it the year before), pumped his value way up, and pocketed the draft picks.

 

Even when he's failed, like with Octavio Dotel, he didn't give up too much. He gave up a couple prospects with limited ceilings in Mark Teahen and Mike Wood, aiming to hold onto Dotel until he got a good trade offer or could get the draft picks. Dotel got injured, but Wood is never gonna be missed, and Teahen had no place on the A's. It was certainly worth the risk.

 

And recently, he drafted a guy and put him in as the closer. Street is costing them basically nothing.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a good general manager will know better than to sink a good chunk of his payroll into a guy who pitches maybe 70 innings a year. In fact, closers are extremely easy to find, either from other systems or within your own. There's no reason you should ever sink that kind of money into a reliever, unless they're one of the extremely few that exhibit little to no variance in year-to-year performance and the club having enough already in their payroll that it's just a splash in the bucket (Rivera being one of the few).

This is all true, but you're talking about a team with a manager who needs as many guys as possible in well-defined roles, because he's horrible at assigning them himself.

[BigbadB]

It's actually quite entertaining watching the Reds spend talent and money on bullpen guys. I'm glad it's them and not us forking out big cash for Cordero.

 

But, I can see why Reds fans are happy with this deal. They don't have problems offensively. They have holes in their rotation, but there aren't many teams that don't have that problem.

 

It's always a bad move to spend big bucks on bullpen help. Relievers can't get anymore touch and go than they are now. Eyre certainly hasn't been worth the money. Who was the best reliever on the market last year and how did he do? Did he do better than Ryan Franklin, who flew way under the radar? The shelf life of a reliever isn't much more than the one good season they already tossed up, with a few limited exceptions.

 

Marmol could fall on his face next year. The Cubs bullpen could go from first to worst next year. It's a complete crapshoot. That's why that contract was horrible. But, you can't blame Cordero for wanting it. It may be his only big contract. And if he can continue being effective, he'll be doing it for the Reds. And if they can't find the arms necessary to fill out their rotation, they do have a chance to be in the thick of things next year.