Why are people in such a hurry to get Theriot out of town?

[jaxxradio]

USSoccer, Theriot's not fast?? What are you watching because it sure isn't Theriot, or baseball for that matter. Twenty-eight stolen bases and was only caught stealing FOUR TIMES this season. Not fast?? Please..

 

abuck, I can only tell you what all the scouts have told me when i chat with them. They are looking for defense first at SS, 2B, CF and C. If the player can't play defense in those positions, then he doesn't get a serious look, unless he puts up better than average numbers offensively.. and if he does.. he in all liklihood gets moved to a corner position.

 

As far as Theriot being "nice to me", I'm a broadcaster who doesn't care if a player likes me or not. My opinion of a person's worth as a baseball player isn't measured by how often I talked with the person or how nice that person was to me. Seriously abuck, you sound like a moron or a very insecure and jealous person when you make those stupid comments.

[USSoccer]

USSoccer, Theriot's not fast?? What are you watching because it sure isn't Theriot, or baseball for that matter. Twenty-eight stolen bases and was only caught stealing FOUR TIMES this season. Not fast?? Please..

 

abuck, I can only tell you what all the scouts have told me when i chat with them. They are looking for defense first at SS, 2B, CF and C. If the player can't play defense in those positions, then he doesn't get a serious look, unless he puts up better than average numbers offensively.. and if he does.. he in all liklihood gets moved to a corner position.

 

As far as Theriot being "nice to me", I'm a broadcaster who doesn't care if a player likes me or not. My opinion of a person's worth as a baseball player isn't measured by how often I talked with the person or how nice that person was to me. Seriously abuck, you sound like a moron or a very insecure and jealous person when you make those stupid comments.

 

He's not that fast. I'm glad he has a good CS%. It means he's smart enough to run only when he has a good chance of not getting caught and wasting an out. He hustles. But he's not "fast". He's probably not as "fast" as I used to be. But I appreciate the jab at my lack of baseball watching.

 

And I doubly appreciate the shot at abuck. Way to follow board policy.

 

Getting back to the subject, however, since you're so hell bent on defending a below average player, you tell us how we should evaluate Theriot. Because every way we do it, you object, without offering anything concrete of your own in it's place.

[Derwood]

i can't believe this thread is still going on.

[fromthestretch]

Can someone please explain why Theriot has a "limited ceiling?" Because he is 27 or 28?

 

The arguement seems to be that Ronny Cedeno is the better option - because he is younger? What did he do when the job was his to lose in 2006? He was terrible. He belonged in AAA. What did Cedeno do in the beginning of 2007 when the job was his? He got 2 or 3 hits. He is clueless at the plate. Overmatched.

 

Cedeno has TONS of potential, but so did Gary Scott. So did Mike Harkey. So did quite a few "can't miss" prospects the Cubs have had in their system.

 

Why shouldn't Theriot be the Cubs starting SS in 2008? I am all for playing whoever had the hot hand, like Lou did in 2007. Theriot did a fine job at SS, and I'd be willing to bet next year he'll hit around .280 and score around 90 runs with an OB around .340-.350.

 

Theriot has a limited ceiling based on his past performance and his age. He's in what are normally a player's prime years. His minor league numbers do not indicate any major improvement over his current numbers.

 

Compare these numbers:

 

Cedeno at AAA (age 22 and 24)

532 AB, .357/.413/.528, 18 HR, 50 BB, 77 K

 

Ryan Theriot at AAA (age 26)

280 AB, .304/.367/.379, 0 HR, 27 BB, 34 K

 

Cedeno has out-produced Theriot by a fairly wide margin at a younger age at the highest level of the minors. No one expects him to produce those numbers at the major league level, but being younger affords him a little more time to put it together before he reaches his prime years. If he can carry over some of that success to the major league level, he could be a solid player.

 

And I wish people would quit saying the job was his at the beginning of 2007. A few starts here and there is not a legitimate shot.

 

As for Gary Scott, he didn't put up anywhere near those numbers in the minors. Mike Harkey's lack of success was due in part to numerous injuries.

[Keener98]

Cub, defense is important in all positions.. but it's not the number one priority at 1B, 3B, LF and RF. Offense is the number one thing scouts are looking for in the corner positions. Defense is the number one thing scouts are looking for at C, 2B, SS and CF. If you get solid defense from the corners or solid offense from the middle, you got a special player.

 

As far as your enlightning comment about "the days of all glove, no get on base middle infielders are pretty much over", you get a gold star.. in other "enlightning" news, the sun rose from the east today...

 

Theriot didn't do anything this year to lose his job at short unless the Cubs get a better player via a trade or free agency, which probably won't happen until after the sale is completed.

 

As far as Cedeno is concerned, he is in the same boat as Felix Pie. Until they do something offensively at the major league level (and not in the hitter friendly Pacific Coast League), they don't have a future in this game.

 

Where is the difference between Izturis and Theriot? Izturis had a better all around year, where Theriot had 1 astrnomical month with 5 below average months.

[jersey cubs fan]

We agree to disagree on this subject. .

 

I don't.

 

If people don't realize that Theriot was bad this year and needs to be replaced, there's no disagreement, there's just a lack of understanding on their part. It's not opinion, it's cold hard fact.

[Keener98]

Can someone please explain why Theriot has a "limited ceiling?" Because he is 27 or 28?

 

The arguement seems to be that Ronny Cedeno is the better option - because he is younger? What did he do when the job was his to lose in 2006? He was terrible. He belonged in AAA. What did Cedeno do in the beginning of 2007 when the job was his? He got 2 or 3 hits. He is clueless at the plate. Overmatched.

 

Cedeno has TONS of potential, but so did Gary Scott. So did Mike Harkey. So did quite a few "can't miss" prospects the Cubs have had in their system.

 

Why shouldn't Theriot be the Cubs starting SS in 2008? I am all for playing whoever had the hot hand, like Lou did in 2007. Theriot did a fine job at SS, and I'd be willing to bet next year he'll hit around .280 and score around 90 runs with an OB around .340-.350.

 

Did you like Cesar Izturis also? Seriously all these people talking about how Theriot had a fine year at SS need to realize he had the same year as Izturis.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Keener98

[abuck1220]

let me make sure i'm getting this straight.

 

 

As far as Cedeno is concerned, he is in the same boat as Felix Pie. Until they do something offensively at the major league level (and not in the hitter friendly Pacific Coast League), they don't have a future in this game.

 

and

 

 

abuck, I can only tell you what all the scouts have told me when i chat with them. They are looking for defense first at SS, 2B, CF and C.

 

you realize that pie is a cf and cedeno is a ss, right? and that they're both (pie especially) above average defenders?

 

so offense isn't important at ss or cf when you're talking about theriot, but when we're talking pie or cedeno they need to "do something offensively" if they want to play.

 

Seriously abuck, you sound like a moron or a very insecure and jealous person when you make those stupid comments.

 

insecure and jealous of what? my inexperience broadcasting minor league games compared to you?

[jersey cubs fan]

Can someone please explain why Theriot has a "limited ceiling?" Because he is 27 or 28?

 

The arguement seems to be that Ronny Cedeno is the better option - because he is younger? What did he do when the job was his to lose in 2006? He was terrible. He belonged in AAA. What did Cedeno do in the beginning of 2007 when the job was his? He got 2 or 3 hits. He is clueless at the plate. Overmatched.

 

Cedeno has TONS of potential, but so did Gary Scott. So did Mike Harkey. So did quite a few "can't miss" prospects the Cubs have had in their system.

 

Why shouldn't Theriot be the Cubs starting SS in 2008? I am all for playing whoever had the hot hand, like Lou did in 2007. Theriot did a fine job at SS, and I'd be willing to bet next year he'll hit around .280 and score around 90 runs with an OB around .340-.350.

 

Did you like Cesar Izturis also? Seriously all these people talking about how Theriot had a fine year at SS need to realize he had the same year as Izturis.

 

Theriot is grittier.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

It's good to see I got this thread moving in the proper direction...

 

 

[Keener98]

USSoccer, Theriot's not fast?? What are you watching because it sure isn't Theriot, or baseball for that matter. Twenty-eight stolen bases and was only caught stealing FOUR TIMES this season. Not fast?? Please..

 

abuck, I can only tell you what all the scouts have told me when i chat with them. They are looking for defense first at SS, 2B, CF and C. If the player can't play defense in those positions, then he doesn't get a serious look, unless he puts up better than average numbers offensively.. and if he does.. he in all liklihood gets moved to a corner position.

 

As far as Theriot being "nice to me", I'm a broadcaster who doesn't care if a player likes me or not. My opinion of a person's worth as a baseball player isn't measured by how often I talked with the person or how nice that person was to me. Seriously abuck, you sound like a moron or a very insecure and jealous person when you make those stupid comments.

 

Wow namecalling how enlightening.

[USSoccer]

So, let me sum this up:

 

-Theriot did nothing to lose his job

-Cedeno and Pie's AAA numbers mean nothing

-SS winning % is the best way to evaluate who should start.

-Theriot is fast

-You don't need to be any good offensively if you play SS, C or CF.

-Scouts look for defense first.

-abuck is an insecure moron

-I don't watch baseball

-You are a AA broadcaster.

 

Have I missed anything? No? Good. Now, onto the truth:

 

-Theriot is a below average SS by any measurement or evaluation

-Cedeno is much younger with more potential

-The Cubs had exactly an average offense. They need to get better

-The Cubs need to upgrade prduction from C, SS, CF and RF.

-Theriot should not prevent an upgrade at SS.

-Matt Murton has nothing to do with Ryan Theriot

[Derwood]

it's clear that it's impossible to make an objective assessment on a player who you know personally

[NewUserName]

If the Cubs had a big 3 of ARod, Matt Holiday and CFielder, I wouldnt mind Theriot at SS.

[Omar]

it's clear that it's impossible to make an objective assessment on a player who you know personally

 

or that you like. Sports management is a business. You have to look past your feelings and realize what's best for the team.

[USSoccer]

If the Cubs had a big 3 of ARod, Matt Holiday and CFielder, I wouldnt mind Theriot at SS.

 

Well, that's the point people have made. You have 4 spots that need improvement. If you improve at 3 of them, you can live with it, but you don't ever let Theriot's presence prevent any upgrade at that spot.

[Abe Frohman]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

I think the Cubs would be much better served spending whatever money they can to get better starting pitching and maybe resolve the OF issue (deal someone and have at least two everyday producers out there).

 

I would think that if $20 million was available to spend, I'd throw it at starting pitching before I would try and land a SS or OF (I used to think Murton wouldn't work in RF, but I am retracting that).

[USSoccer]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

Look at the title of the thread.

[abuck1220]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

I think the Cubs would be much better served spending whatever money they can to get better starting pitching and maybe resolve the OF issue (deal someone and have at least two everyday producers out there).

 

I would think that if $20 million was available to spend, I'd throw it at starting pitching before I would try and land a SS or OF (I used to think Murton wouldn't work in RF, but I am retracting that).

 

the cubs starting rotation had the 3rd best era in the majors this year and the offense scored the 18th most runs. why would you go after starting pitching instead of offense?

Edited October 15, 2007 by abuck1220

[Guest]

Why don't we all watch what we're posting. There are a few posters who are flirting with (if not actually) violating board rules.

[USSoccer]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

I think the Cubs would be much better served spending whatever money they can to get better starting pitching and maybe resolve the OF issue (deal someone and have at least two everyday producers out there).

 

I would think that if $20 million was available to spend, I'd throw it at starting pitching before I would try and land a SS or OF (I used to think Murton wouldn't work in RF, but I am retracting that).

 

the cubs starting rotation had the 3rd best era in the majors this year and the offense scored the 18th most runs. why would you go after starting pitching instead of offense?

 

Dude, pitching and defense wins championships.

[imb]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

I think the Cubs would be much better served spending whatever money they can to get better starting pitching and maybe resolve the OF issue (deal someone and have at least two everyday producers out there).

 

I would think that if $20 million was available to spend, I'd throw it at starting pitching before I would try and land a SS or OF (I used to think Murton wouldn't work in RF, but I am retracting that).

 

the cubs starting rotation had the 3rd best era in the majors this year and the offense scored the 18th most runs. why would you go after starting pitching instead of offense?

 

Dude, pitching and defense wins championships.

 

Question: Is it possible to have pitching that's even better than No. 1 overall? Like, what's better than No. 1? Because I think we should strive for it. True champions don't stop at only being the best.

[CUBZ99]

Its not like Cedeno hasn't been given extended looks.

 

What is an "extended look".

 

I really cannot understand the mentality. Cedeno will likely not be an all-star, however he's much more likely to improve than Theroit. But really, that is beside the point. It is not very wise to expect all-star level production out of a first or second year player, most of the time.

 

The problem with the Cubs is that they are constructed so poorly that they need a higher level of performance out of the rookies in order to compete. At least that is the only explanation I can come up with why some of the posts in this thread are so crazy.

 

And Murton? give me a break.

 

An extended look in my book would be over 500 ABs in 150+ games during a season. After 2006, the Cubs had to put Cedeno on a short leash, because if you think Theriot's .326 OBP was bad, Cedeno's .271 OBP was abysmal. During April this year, Cedeno was terrible hitting .097, .121 OBP. Sure it was only 31 ABs, but based on his numbers over the entire previous season there didn't appear to be any improvement.

 

The problem is deciding whether Cedeno is ever going to make the adjustment or continue to be a poor hitting SS. Based on the way Cedeno has played in the majors I certainly wouldn't criticize anyone for thinking that he is a lost cause. Likewise, he has shown flashes of brilliance in the field and at the plate. The Cubs can certainly not go another season with a .271 OBP SS. Theriot has at least shown a better approach at the plate than Cedeno.

 

As far as your Murton comment, I'm guessing that was directed at someone else or the overall sentiment of the topic?

[USSoccer]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

I think the Cubs would be much better served spending whatever money they can to get better starting pitching and maybe resolve the OF issue (deal someone and have at least two everyday producers out there).

 

I would think that if $20 million was available to spend, I'd throw it at starting pitching before I would try and land a SS or OF (I used to think Murton wouldn't work in RF, but I am retracting that).

 

the cubs starting rotation had the 3rd best era in the majors this year and the offense scored the 18th most runs. why would you go after starting pitching instead of offense?

 

Dude, pitching and defense wins championships.

 

Question: Is it possible to have pitching that's even better than No. 1 overall? Like, what's better than No. 1? Because I think we should strive for it. True champions don't stop at only being the best.

 

I agree. This should be the goal. Like, to be like #0.

[Abe Frohman]

Has anyone actually said they would prefer Theriot over a clearly better shortstop like Tejada, Rodriguez, etc? I haven't see that, only that some feel Theriot is a better option than Cedeno right now (including the Cubs organization).

 

I think the Cubs would be much better served spending whatever money they can to get better starting pitching and maybe resolve the OF issue (deal someone and have at least two everyday producers out there).

 

I would think that if $20 million was available to spend, I'd throw it at starting pitching before I would try and land a SS or OF (I used to think Murton wouldn't work in RF, but I am retracting that).

 

the cubs starting rotation had the 3rd best era in the majors this year and the offense scored the 18th most runs. why would you go after starting pitching instead of offense?

 

I'm assuming you are not serious because I am sure even you watched the NLDS. You don't think it is important to improve the starting pitching?

 

 

Look at the title of the thread.

 

OK, so?