Should Pie start next year?

[Guest]

I think there are better options for RF vs. Cameron in CF - would rather have that better player at RF w/ Pie than Cameron-Murton/Jones.

[Guest]

No. EqA isn't adjusted for position. It's only adjusted for park (read my thread to find about that) and league/time ---- even league and time is misleading. VORP is position adjusted, but it's EqA rate counterpart, MLVr is not.

 

yea, I thought that through as I finished typing that. I would play Pie in CF as I don't see any of those other options putting the team over the top.

[Mephistopheles]

I think there are better options for RF vs. Cameron in CF - would rather have that better player at RF w/ Pie than Cameron-Murton/Jones.

 

Cameron would WARP somewhere between 6-8. Murton-Jones would do about the same in RF. They would really be a good platoon if we used them correctly, but we won't. So we're looking at a 12-16 WARP from CF and RF.

 

If we put Pie in CF we're looking at a WARP from 4-6 so we'd have to get a WARP of like 8-10 in RF to make the difference. WARP isnt great but it shows you the difference. Adam Dunn wont give you a WARP of 8-10 in RF.

 

Cameron is the forgotten OF FA out there this year. With Hunter and Jones heading the list, he's going to be relatively cheap for value. Hes getting old so we wont sign him to anything longer than 3 years and really thats fine.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hardball Times had an interesting tidbit the other day about Andruw, something about his batted ball types being in decline for about 4 years I think. Not good news for him rebounding they were saying.

 

If it were me, I'd find the cheapest price(in players) for some of the potential RF targets without adding too much salary(I think Raw discussed them in the offseason thread in transactions), and let Pie, Theriot, and Soto play. It's not ideal to have DeRosa 6th instead of 2nd, but I think it works better than hitting Pie/Soto/Theriot back-to-back-to-back.

 

Soriano

Theriot

Lee

Ramirez

RF Target

DeRosa

Pie/Soto

Soto/Pie

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Fukudome.

[NewUserName]

I think he should be starting now. If the Cubs make the playoffs its not because they are good, its because the division is bad. Might as well let Pie play and develop. He is going to have a time where he doesnt do well in his adjustment to MLB. The sooner he gets past it the better.

[Backtobanks]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

[Banedon]

Yes, but I disagree with the notion he should be starting right now.

 

How about the notion that he should have been given the CF back at midseason and allowed to work through his "slump" from the get go instead of being in and out of the lineup, and up and down from the minors? Then starting him right now might not be such a terrible notion.

[XZero771679666304]

Yes, but I disagree with the notion he should be starting right now.

 

How about the notion that he should have been given the CF back at midseason and allowed to work through his "slump" from the get go instead of being in and out of the lineup, and up and down from the minors? Then starting him right now might not be such a terrible notion.

 

Starting him earlier in the season when Jones was terrible would have been ideal. But now that Jacque is hitting a bit, putting Pie in everyday would probably have a detrimental effect.

[rawaction]

The only reason for Pie NOT starting is if you trade him for a .900 (give or take .025) OPS RF in a trade for him, and you start Jones in CF 1 more year, before Patterson or Colvin take over.

[anabiono]

Yes, but I disagree with the notion he should be starting right now.

 

How about the notion that he should have been given the CF back at midseason and allowed to work through his "slump" from the get go instead of being in and out of the lineup, and up and down from the minors? Then starting him right now might not be such a terrible notion.

 

this is true, and we could currently have the ultimate RF platoon

 

lol

 

cliffy did good last night though...i think i may bash that old man a bit more than he deserves...

 

but when i watch him in the field, i just cringe

 

oh

 

yes, start pie next year

 

mmm...not right now

 

smiles and diamonds are doing alright in center right now

[Banedon]

Yes, but I disagree with the notion he should be starting right now.

 

How about the notion that he should have been given the CF back at midseason and allowed to work through his "slump" from the get go instead of being in and out of the lineup, and up and down from the minors? Then starting him right now might not be such a terrible notion.

 

Starting him earlier in the season when Jones was terrible would have been ideal. But now that Jacque is hitting a bit, putting Pie in everyday would probably have a detrimental effect.

 

I agree. But Pie in center wouldn't have meant that Jones couldn't still play either...we weren't exactly getting great RF production.

[NewUserName]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

 

 

FA is a bad investment. Thats why it is pivotal to develop players within your system. The last step of development is the majors. Players need to play to get better in the majors. This is why Pie should be playing.

[hardcorecubfan]

No, he should be part of the Johan Santana trade.

 

Then sign Fukidome

[Mephistopheles]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

 

 

FA is a bad investment. Thats why it is pivotal to develop players within your system. The last step of development is the majors. Players need to play to get better in the majors. This is why Pie should be playing.

 

 

 

this is completely untrue.

[jersey cubs fan]

They clearly need another bat somewhere, I think the easiest way to afford one is to play a guy like Pie in CF at minimum wage. But I wouldn't hesitate to trade him in a package for an impact bat instead.

[NewUserName]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

 

 

FA is a bad investment. Thats why it is pivotal to develop players within your system. The last step of development is the majors. Players need to play to get better in the majors. This is why Pie should be playing.

 

 

 

this is completely untrue.

 

 

In most cases Free Agents are signed at the end or past prime. They will in most cases get paid more than they were getting paid for declining production. Young players coming up get paid less while there production is improving. I know there is individual cases where players are still improving after free agency, but there are cases where it was better to not where a seat belt in a car accident. I would contend that the percentages tend to show free agency as a bad tool to build a winning ballclub(unless you are willing to spend like the Yankees).

 

As for the part of young players need time to develop in the Majors, I dont know what to tell you. For every Pujols and Braun there are 20 DLees and ARams. Most players dont have ROY numbers right off the bat. They need to play to get better.

[CubColtPacer]

I think he should be starting now. If the Cubs make the playoffs its not because they are good, its because the division is bad. Might as well let Pie play and develop. He is going to have a time where he doesnt do well in his adjustment to MLB. The sooner he gets past it the better.

 

2 1/2 weeks of development time for Pie is not going to be worth the drop of the Cubs playoff chances. In fact, one could argue that throwing Pie in there now could hurt his development.

Trying to make adjustments in the middle of a playoff race can lead to some bad habits just to get a quick fix, and it can also lead to a much faster loss of confidence if Pie struggles and the team doesn't make the playoffs.

In short, let him do what he's doing now, and then plug him in from day 1 next year (at worst have somebody to platoon with him against left-handers) and then don't remove him for the rest of the year.

[hardcorecubfan]

I think he should be starting now. If the Cubs make the playoffs its not because they are good, its because the division is bad. Might as well let Pie play and develop. He is going to have a time where he doesnt do well in his adjustment to MLB. The sooner he gets past it the better.

 

2 1/2 weeks of development time for Pie is not going to be worth the drop of the Cubs playoff chances. In fact, one could argue that throwing Pie in there now could hurt his development.

Trying to make adjustments in the middle of a playoff race can lead to some bad habits just to get a quick fix, and it can also lead to a much faster loss of confidence if Pie struggles and the team doesn't make the playoffs.

In short, let him do what he's doing now, and then plug him in from day 1 next year (at worst have somebody to platoon with him against left-handers) and then don't remove him for the rest of the year.

 

Could we not assume for any team that might be out of it might show us some kid from triple A that Pie is more familiar with than another veteran. would you play him then?

[CubColtPacer]

I think he should be starting now. If the Cubs make the playoffs its not because they are good, its because the division is bad. Might as well let Pie play and develop. He is going to have a time where he doesnt do well in his adjustment to MLB. The sooner he gets past it the better.

 

2 1/2 weeks of development time for Pie is not going to be worth the drop of the Cubs playoff chances. In fact, one could argue that throwing Pie in there now could hurt his development.

Trying to make adjustments in the middle of a playoff race can lead to some bad habits just to get a quick fix, and it can also lead to a much faster loss of confidence if Pie struggles and the team doesn't make the playoffs.

In short, let him do what he's doing now, and then plug him in from day 1 next year (at worst have somebody to platoon with him against left-handers) and then don't remove him for the rest of the year.

 

Could we not assume for any team that might be out of it might show us some kid from triple A that Pie is more familiar with than another veteran. would you play him then?

 

A pitcher that Pie has faced and had success with in the minors and Jones hasn't faced? Yeah, I'd start Pie in that scenario.

[NewUserName]

I think he should be starting now. If the Cubs make the playoffs its not because they are good, its because the division is bad. Might as well let Pie play and develop. He is going to have a time where he doesnt do well in his adjustment to MLB. The sooner he gets past it the better.

 

2 1/2 weeks of development time for Pie is not going to be worth the drop of the Cubs playoff chances. In fact, one could argue that throwing Pie in there now could hurt his development.

Trying to make adjustments in the middle of a playoff race can lead to some bad habits just to get a quick fix, and it can also lead to a much faster loss of confidence if Pie struggles and the team doesn't make the playoffs.

In short, let him do what he's doing now, and then plug him in from day 1 next year (at worst have somebody to platoon with him against left-handers) and then don't remove him for the rest of the year.

 

 

Your right. It probably wouldnt do much good now. He should have been playing since he came up though.

[CubColtPacer]

I think he should be starting now. If the Cubs make the playoffs its not because they are good, its because the division is bad. Might as well let Pie play and develop. He is going to have a time where he doesnt do well in his adjustment to MLB. The sooner he gets past it the better.

 

2 1/2 weeks of development time for Pie is not going to be worth the drop of the Cubs playoff chances. In fact, one could argue that throwing Pie in there now could hurt his development.

Trying to make adjustments in the middle of a playoff race can lead to some bad habits just to get a quick fix, and it can also lead to a much faster loss of confidence if Pie struggles and the team doesn't make the playoffs.

In short, let him do what he's doing now, and then plug him in from day 1 next year (at worst have somebody to platoon with him against left-handers) and then don't remove him for the rest of the year.

 

 

Your right. It probably wouldnt do much good now. He should have been playing since he came up though.

 

I think he should have been playing since he came up in June, and the Cubs would have seen the benefits by now. When they made the mistake of sending him down, by the time he came up in mid-August, I felt it was a little too late in the year for him to make his adjustments at that point (plus Jones was in his huge hot streak). So basically I agree with you that if they had played their cards right, they could have gotten his adjustment period to mostly be in 07, not 08.

[Mephistopheles]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

 

 

FA is a bad investment. Thats why it is pivotal to develop players within your system. The last step of development is the majors. Players need to play to get better in the majors. This is why Pie should be playing.

 

 

 

this is completely untrue.

 

 

In most cases Free Agents are signed at the end or past prime. They will in most cases get paid more than they were getting paid for declining production. Young players coming up get paid less while there production is improving. I know there is individual cases where players are still improving after free agency, but there are cases where it was better to not where a seat belt in a car accident. I would contend that the percentages tend to show free agency as a bad tool to build a winning ballclub(unless you are willing to spend like the Yankees).

 

As for the part of young players need time to develop in the Majors, I dont know what to tell you. For every Pujols and Braun there are 20 DLees and ARams. Most players dont have ROY numbers right off the bat. They need to play to get better.

 

once again, this isn't true

[jersey cubs fan]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

 

 

FA is a bad investment. Thats why it is pivotal to develop players within your system. The last step of development is the majors. Players need to play to get better in the majors. This is why Pie should be playing.

 

 

 

this is completely untrue.

 

 

In most cases Free Agents are signed at the end or past prime. They will in most cases get paid more than they were getting paid for declining production. Young players coming up get paid less while there production is improving. I know there is individual cases where players are still improving after free agency, but there are cases where it was better to not where a seat belt in a car accident. I would contend that the percentages tend to show free agency as a bad tool to build a winning ballclub(unless you are willing to spend like the Yankees).

 

As for the part of young players need time to develop in the Majors, I dont know what to tell you. For every Pujols and Braun there are 20 DLees and ARams. Most players dont have ROY numbers right off the bat. They need to play to get better.

 

once again, this isn't true

 

No, it's true. The thing that isn't true however is the insinuation that you shouldn't sign any free agent. You have to, there's really no way around it. You have to overpay for some of your production, because it's simply impossible to get it all, and get enough, strictly from the cheap youth. There's no room for error doing it that way.

[NewUserName]

is there a cf in the FA market that will be worth half of what they get paid?

 

How many FAs at any position are worth half of what they end up getting?

 

 

FA is a bad investment. Thats why it is pivotal to develop players within your system. The last step of development is the majors. Players need to play to get better in the majors. This is why Pie should be playing.

 

 

 

this is completely untrue.

 

 

In most cases Free Agents are signed at the end or past prime. They will in most cases get paid more than they were getting paid for declining production. Young players coming up get paid less while there production is improving. I know there is individual cases where players are still improving after free agency, but there are cases where it was better to not where a seat belt in a car accident. I would contend that the percentages tend to show free agency as a bad tool to build a winning ballclub(unless you are willing to spend like the Yankees).

 

As for the part of young players need time to develop in the Majors, I dont know what to tell you. For every Pujols and Braun there are 20 DLees and ARams. Most players dont have ROY numbers right off the bat. They need to play to get better.

 

once again, this isn't true

 

No, it's true. The thing that isn't true however is the insinuation that you shouldn't sign any free agent. You have to, there's really no way around it. You have to overpay for some of your production, because it's simply impossible to get it all, and get enough, strictly from the cheap youth. There's no room for error doing it that way.

 

 

I agree with this also. I think though a good player development system has to be in place and then the holes need to be filled with free agents. The Cubs seem to do it the other way. Try to build with free agents and then fill holes with players from their system.