Anybody else concerned about Marmol?

[SouthSideRyan]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

[rawaction]

I'm actually FOR trying Marmol again in the rotation. If Wood is back next year and healthy, he should presumably be a pretty decent reliever and could take over Carlos' role. As has been stated, a good starter is more valuable than a great reliever. If Marmol can be a good starter, that's better for the team, IMO. If he shows he can't be a good starter, well he has a great fallback option.

[Monco]

With all the moves,its hard to keep track. Factoring in Gallagher,Petrick,Pignatiello etc.there are plenty of fresh arms available.Of course you want at least 6 from your starter,but if his(Lilly)pitch counts that high,pull him.Its August,we need to have these guys in October.

[Monco]

Lou seems to have some Dusty in him. Lilly throwing 127 pitches was silly.They have a 12 man staff to ease the workload but...

 

I believe right now the staff is only 11.

 

And Lilly threw 107.

 

A few weeks ago

[CubColtPacer]

With all the moves,its hard to keep track. Factoring in Gallagher,Petrick,Pignatiello etc.there are plenty of fresh arms available.Of course you want at least 6 from your starter,but if his(Lilly)pitch counts that high,pull him.Its August,we need to have these guys in October.

 

107 pitches isn't that high though. Especially for a left-handed veteran like Lilly, that doesn't put much stress on his arm.

 

You're talking about a few weeks ago? One 120+ pitch outing for a guy like Lilly is not going to take much of a toll. It's concerning if they pitch him 115+ regularly, but Lou doesn't do that.

Edited August 31, 2007 by CubColtPacer

[Fred Hornkohl]

Lou seems to have some Dusty in him. Lilly throwing 127 pitches was silly.They have a 12 man staff to ease the workload but...

 

I believe right now the staff is only 11.

 

And Lilly threw 107.

 

A few weeks ago

 

Yeah.... that was Thurs 09 August in Colorado. He got an extra day off after that start, too.

[Monco]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

Does anybody really want to see Dempster with the game on the line? Lous been bringing Marmol in crucial situations. Coming in the 9th with no runners on with a lead is alot easier than coming in with runners on in a tie game in the 7th or 8th. Its risky bringing Dempster in with runners on because he walks too many.

[rawaction]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

Does anybody really want to see Dempster with the game on the line? Lous been bringing Marmol in crucial situations. Coming in the 9th with no runners on with a lead is alot easier than coming in with runners on in a tie game in the 7th or 8th. Its risky bringing Dempster in with runners on because he walks too many.

 

Len said last night that Marmol leads the league in % of inherited runners stranded.

[jersey cubs fan]

Marmol's thrown a couple more innings than you'd like this month, but I'm not overly concerned about his usage. He hardly ever pitches back-to-back days(and the rare times he has his second outing has been something like .1 IP) and very frequently gets multiple days off between outings.

 

33 times with 0 or 1 days rest compared to 13 with 2 or more. 22 outings of more than 1 inning.

 

16 innings per month which correlates to 96 relief innings over a season.

 

Why are people pretending Marmol isn't being pushed to the limit? If he is not, then no reliever ever gets pushed to the limit.

 

Because he's not being "pushed to the limit", that's really disingenuous wording. There's a very large difference between warming up, throwing 15-25 pitches in 1+ innings of work, followed by 1-2 days off, and warming up, throwing 10-15 pitches in an inning or less for 3 out of 4 days. He's been starting for his entire career, so it's not like he's approaching a threshold he's never reached. He even started right up until he got moved to the Chicago pen, another reason that he's fine with the workload. 4 IP per week is not going to ruin him, not even close.

 

So with that thinking, any reliever who ever started and racked up 180 innings in any season would never have a problem throwing 100 innings as a reliever.

[jersey cubs fan]

With all the moves,its hard to keep track. Factoring in Gallagher,Petrick,Pignatiello etc.there are plenty of fresh arms available.Of course you want at least 6 from your starter,but if his(Lilly)pitch counts that high,pull him.Its August,we need to have these guys in October.

 

107 pitches isn't that high though. Especially for a left-handed veteran like Lilly, that doesn't put much stress on his arm.

 

You're talking about a few weeks ago? One 120+ pitch outing for a guy like Lilly is not going to take much of a toll. It's concerning if they pitch him 115+ regularly, but Lou doesn't do that.

 

One of the best things Lou has done this year is not abuse his starting pitchers.

[radarluv1]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

Does anybody really want to see Dempster with the game on the line? Lous been bringing Marmol in crucial situations. Coming in the 9th with no runners on with a lead is alot easier than coming in with runners on in a tie game in the 7th or 8th. Its risky bringing Dempster in with runners on because he walks too many.

 

Len said last night that Marmol leads the league in % of inherited runners stranded.

 

something like 2/32 scored. thats amazing. thats not what i want dempster doing, let him pitch with the bases empty.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm actually FOR trying Marmol again in the rotation. If Wood is back next year and healthy, he should presumably be a pretty decent reliever and could take over Carlos' role. As has been stated, a good starter is more valuable than a great reliever. If Marmol can be a good starter, that's better for the team, IMO. If he shows he can't be a good starter, well he has a great fallback option.

 

I just don't see Marmol being as good as as starter as he is as a reliever. His K rate is much higher than it's ever been as a starter. His WHIP is lower. He has been a good starting pitcher in his past, and I wouldn't be upset if they moved him to the rotation. I just feel we may have found his niche. And while I completely agree that a starter is more important than a reliever, the fact is you do need some dominance in the pen. If they can keep putting out 5 starters without needing Marmol, I think I'd prefer him in the bullpen.

[The Voice of Reason]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

 

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

[sweetpeteman]

I'm actually FOR trying Marmol again in the rotation. If Wood is back next year and healthy, he should presumably be a pretty decent reliever and could take over Carlos' role. As has been stated, a good starter is more valuable than a great reliever. If Marmol can be a good starter, that's better for the team, IMO. If he shows he can't be a good starter, well he has a great fallback option.

 

I just don't see Marmol being as good as as starter as he is as a reliever. His K rate is much higher than it's ever been as a starter. His WHIP is lower. He has been a good starting pitcher in his past, and I wouldn't be upset if they moved him to the rotation. I just feel we may have found his niche. And while I completely agree that a starter is more important than a reliever, the fact is you do need some dominance in the pen. If they can keep putting out 5 starters without needing Marmol, I think I'd prefer him in the bullpen.

 

 

His BB/9 is to high for me to really consider him to ever be an effective starter. While he can get away with it as a reliever, as a starter it would probably bite him in the ass.

[jersey cubs fan]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

 

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

[rawaction]

I'm actually FOR trying Marmol again in the rotation. If Wood is back next year and healthy, he should presumably be a pretty decent reliever and could take over Carlos' role. As has been stated, a good starter is more valuable than a great reliever. If Marmol can be a good starter, that's better for the team, IMO. If he shows he can't be a good starter, well he has a great fallback option.

 

I just don't see Marmol being as good as as starter as he is as a reliever. His K rate is much higher than it's ever been as a starter. His WHIP is lower. He has been a good starting pitcher in his past, and I wouldn't be upset if they moved him to the rotation. I just feel we may have found his niche. And while I completely agree that a starter is more important than a reliever, the fact is you do need some dominance in the pen. If they can keep putting out 5 starters without needing Marmol, I think I'd prefer him in the bullpen.

 

Agreed. He won't be as good a starter as he has been as a reliever. But he's been a dominant reliever, one of the best in the league. If he can be a better than league average starter....then it might make the most sense to put him there, especially when you consider the Cubs will probably have to trade Marshall or Hill in order to get a bat to greatly improve their offense. The alternatives are Dempster to the rotation, the oft-injured Guzman, or the lesser talented Sean Gallagher, Juan mateo and others. And the Cubs will probably still have Dempster, Howry, Wood and Wuertz in the pen.

[The Voice of Reason]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

 

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

If Marshall goes eight innings today and runs out of gas with the Cubs up by one, Lou better use Marmol instead of Dempster.

[CubColtPacer]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

 

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

If Marshall goes eight innings today and runs out of gas with the Cubs up by one, Lou better use Marmol instead of Dempster.

 

I hope not. Marmol shouldn't pitch today after pitching 2 innings yesterday.

 

And yes, that is the one situation where the closer being the most dominant pitcher is a good thing. How many times does a starter go 8 full innings anymore though? Not very often.

[sweetpeteman]

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

 

 

I would rather have dempster, whose K/9 and HR/9 are high enough/low enough to be able to handle the 9th, where he probably won't have runners on already unless Eyre came in and screwed up, again, then waste Marmol by moving him away from where he is most needed, coming in in a pinch and getting outs.

 

 

Besides, for all you praise for Carlos, their BB/9 are very simular: 4.67 (RD) vs. 4.42 (CM), however Carlos does have a much better K/BB rate.

[rawaction]

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

 

 

I would rather have dempster, whose K/9 and HR/9 are high enough/low enough to be able to handle the 9th, where he probably won't have runners on already unless Eyre came in and screwed up, again, then waste Marmol by moving him away from where he is most needed, coming in in a pinch and getting outs.

 

 

Besides, for all you praise for Carlos, their BB/9 are very simular: 4.67 (RD) vs. 4.42 (CM), however Carlos does have a much better K/BB rate.

 

Carlos has going for him the fact that he is virtually unhittable. When you have a sub .200 BAA, you can get away with walking a few more people.

 

Edit: just looked up stats and Dempsters allowing a .198 BAA. Of course, he has been nowhere near that good historically.

[sweetpeteman]

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

 

 

I would rather have dempster, whose K/9 and HR/9 are high enough/low enough to be able to handle the 9th, where he probably won't have runners on already unless Eyre came in and screwed up, again, then waste Marmol by moving him away from where he is most needed, coming in in a pinch and getting outs.

 

 

Besides, for all you praise for Carlos, their BB/9 are very simular: 4.67 (RD) vs. 4.42 (CM), however Carlos does have a much better K/BB rate.

 

Carlos has going for him the fact that he is virtually unhittable. When you have a sub .200 BAA, you can get away with walking a few more people.

 

Edit: just looked up stats and Dempsters allowing a .198 BAA. Of course, he has been nowhere near that good historically.

 

 

Still would rather have Carlos are the goto man in the pen for when we need him, not saving him for the ninth when the game may be in hand or out of reach. Maybe have him try for the 1 run saves if he is available, but don't restrict him to the ninth.

[Fred Hornkohl]

 

I hope not. Marmol shouldn't pitch today after pitching 2 innings yesterday.

 

And yes, that is the one situation where the closer being the most dominant pitcher is a good thing. How many times does a starter go 8 full innings anymore though? Not very often.

 

For the CUBS this year...... 12 times in 132 games. (9.09%)

[CubColtPacer]

 

I hope not. Marmol shouldn't pitch today after pitching 2 innings yesterday.

 

And yes, that is the one situation where the closer being the most dominant pitcher is a good thing. How many times does a starter go 8 full innings anymore though? Not very often.

 

For the CUBS this year...... 12 times in 132 games. (9.09%)

 

Thans Fred. So less than 10 percent of the time. And from glancing over the game logs, there were only 7 save situations out of those 12, and 3 of those were 3 run leads. So that situation just doesn't happen all that often, and from just a glace it looks like Dempster hasn't blown a single save in that type of situation.

[The Voice of Reason]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

 

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

If Marshall goes eight innings today and runs out of gas with the Cubs up by one, Lou better use Marmol instead of Dempster.

 

I hope not. Marmol shouldn't pitch today after pitching 2 innings yesterday.

 

And yes, that is the one situation where the closer being the most dominant pitcher is a good thing. How many times does a starter go 8 full innings anymore though? Not very often.

 

 

Number of innings is irrelevant. Marmol threw eight more pitcher than Dempster.

 

A team can be up one or two runs in the ninth without a starter pitching eight innings.

[CubColtPacer]

Marmol should be closing and Mr. (my stats are padded with lucky saves) Dempster should be pitching before Howry.

 

So you want Dempster going 2 innings last night in a tie game and Marmol coming in to face the 9-1-2 hitters with a 2 run lead?

 

I'd want my best relief pitcher pitching the ninth (and eight inning if necessary). Marmol has a 1.47 ERA and threw 22 strikes out of 29 pitches last night.

 

Dempster has a 3.29 ERA and only threw 9 strikes out of 21 pitches. He doesn't have the control or strike out enough guys to be a good closer. A so-called closer walking a guy with the bases loaded - that's ridiculous.

 

I don't care how many cheap saves he gets. That ground ball goes a few more feet to ARam's left and the Brewers win the game.

 

I think you're just defending him because you like his first name.

 

You'd be wasting his value. Your best reliever should pitch in the tighest of spots. That is mostly in the 6th, 7th, or 8th, when the starting pitcher or middle reliever gets in trouble and you need to get through the heart of the order. The closer starts almost all his innings with nobody on, so you can afford to give up a runner. When a guy comes in during the 8th with men on and nobody out, you need your stud reliever.

 

If Marshall goes eight innings today and runs out of gas with the Cubs up by one, Lou better use Marmol instead of Dempster.

 

I hope not. Marmol shouldn't pitch today after pitching 2 innings yesterday.

 

And yes, that is the one situation where the closer being the most dominant pitcher is a good thing. How many times does a starter go 8 full innings anymore though? Not very often.

 

 

Number of innings is irrelevant. Marmol threw eight more pitcher than Dempster.

 

A team can be up one or two runs in the ninth without a starter pitching eight innings.

 

True, but if the starter doesn't pitch 8 innings Marmol could pitch the 7th or 8th, which is just as important as the 9th.

 

Also, having to warm that arm back up for a second inning does add stress to the outing, at least to me.