What if... Pie/Marshall/??

[davearm]

I thought the point was rather obvious.

 

When a guy can't make a start, typically the guy that's forced to replace him is some blah swingman like Rusch. The result is added stress on the bullpen when the guy gets roughed up early, or simply doesn't have the stamina to go deep into the game.

 

We saw this happen again and again and again last year with the parade of replacement starters the Cubs were forced to roll out. You said it yourself -- the Cubs' pen was the most overworked in the NL. That's because they didn't have anyone (besides Zambrano) to eat innings and save the bullpen. Marquis does that.

 

Typically the guy replacing the injured starter is a minor leaguer, most teams dont usually have a swingman like the Cubs last year.

BFD.

 

Regardless of whether a replacement comes from the bullpen or from the minors, the very fact that he's a replacement immediately points to the conclusion that he's not as good as the guy he's replacing.

[Keener98]

I thought the point was rather obvious.

 

When a guy can't make a start, typically the guy that's forced to replace him is some blah swingman like Rusch. The result is added stress on the bullpen when the guy gets roughed up early, or simply doesn't have the stamina to go deep into the game.

 

We saw this happen again and again and again last year with the parade of replacement starters the Cubs were forced to roll out. You said it yourself -- the Cubs' pen was the most overworked in the NL. That's because they didn't have anyone (besides Zambrano) to eat innings and save the bullpen. Marquis does that.

 

Typically the guy replacing the injured starter is a minor leaguer, most teams dont usually have a swingman like the Cubs last year.

BFD.

 

Regardless of whether a replacement comes from the bullpen or from the minors, the very fact that he's a replacement immediately points to the conclusion that he's not as good as the guy he's replacing.

 

Are you serious?BFD? You just completely contradicted your argument about the use of a swingman. Priceless

 

Also thats BS saying since he is a replacement he is obviously not as good as the guy hes replacing. That is a big load of crap.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Keener98

[CUBZ99]

 

No people brought up that Marquis was signed as an "innings eater" and they say hes been doing that. Anze and Myself are arguing that he isnt doing that, as he rarely makes it into and past the 6th inning. Marquis had a good first month in a half and outside of that all of his stats are horrible plain and simple.

 

Since the All Star Break he has a 5.71 ERA 1.53 Whip and teams are hitting almost .285 against him, thats not quality.

 

To clarify your stance, what is your definition of an innnings eater? Do you take into account any of the factors that I mentioned above or are you strictly looking at GS/IP? Since Anze was able to come up with the GS/IP, so quickly, where does Marquis rank in the NL as far as GS/IP among pitchers with over 100IP this year?

 

Also, why do you discount the amount of IP by a pitcher, or the number of Quality Starts so heavily? Do you put any value into the ability of pitcher A, to stay healthy and make all of his starts Or is pitcher "B" who pitches 6.01 GS/IP, but only pitched 70 innings this year (because of injury) an innings eater? whereas pitcher "A" is not?

 

As far as your comments on Marquis post ASB, that is why there is a whole season to evaluate a players performance. In April and May, Marquis put up a 2.35 ERA and a 3.38 ERA respectively. His GS/IP was 6.38. I'm pretty sure at that point, nobody in their right mind believed that he would maintain that pace.

[Derwood]

 

Ok Ive been up over 24 hours right now, so Im not really sure who you are talking to.

 

 

Also consistently taking the ball and eating innings only matters if those innings hes eating he's also not allowing near 5 runs a game.

 

[davearm]

Once again try reading the post. I said into and PAST the 6th inning for one. Two, are you really not counting the 5 other times he hasnt even thrown a pitch in the 6th inning, and the 3 other times hes only got 1 out in the 6th inning?

Well "into the 6th inning" is completely different than "past the 6th inning". For the math impaired, there's a whole inning's worth of difference there.

 

So let's see if we can make some sense of this jumbled statement.

 

Most guys regularly pitch into the 6th inning -- Marquis has done so almost always (21 of 24 starts).

 

Fewer guy regularly pitch past the 6th inning. Marquis has done so in exactly half of his starts (12 of 24).

 

So the INTO part he most certainly does consistently. The PAST part he does half the time.

 

And once again where is his ERA at since June?

What does that have to do with whether or not he eats innings? Quit trying to distort the issue.

 

Also it would be nice if you could try having a debate without smartass comments.

LOL! Some bigtime pot-kettle stuff there. Perhaps if you'd have heeded your own advice earlier, you wouldn't have your feelings hurt now.

[davearm]

I thought the point was rather obvious.

 

When a guy can't make a start, typically the guy that's forced to replace him is some blah swingman like Rusch. The result is added stress on the bullpen when the guy gets roughed up early, or simply doesn't have the stamina to go deep into the game.

 

We saw this happen again and again and again last year with the parade of replacement starters the Cubs were forced to roll out. You said it yourself -- the Cubs' pen was the most overworked in the NL. That's because they didn't have anyone (besides Zambrano) to eat innings and save the bullpen. Marquis does that.

 

Typically the guy replacing the injured starter is a minor leaguer, most teams dont usually have a swingman like the Cubs last year.

BFD.

 

Regardless of whether a replacement comes from the bullpen or from the minors, the very fact that he's a replacement immediately points to the conclusion that he's not as good as the guy he's replacing.

 

Are you serious?BFD? You just completely contradicted your argument about the use of a swingman. Priceless

 

Also thats BS saying since he is a replacement he is obviously not as good as the guy hes replacing. That is a big load of crap.

Where did I contradict my argument?

 

My argument:

Regular starter > swingman replacement.

Regular starter > minor league replacement.

 

Either one is a downgrade from the regular starter, so whenever the regular starter can't take the ball, he's hurting his team and putting added stress on the rest of the pitching staff.

Edited August 13, 2007 by davearm

[Drew Doughty]

Among pitchers in the top 30 in IP (Marquis ranks 30th) + whoever else davearm mentioned, Marquis is 34th in IP/GS.

[Keener98]

Once again try reading the post. I said into and PAST the 6th inning for one. Two, are you really not counting the 5 other times he hasnt even thrown a pitch in the 6th inning, and the 3 other times hes only got 1 out in the 6th inning?

Well "into the 6th inning" is completely different than "past the 6th inning". For the math impaired, there's a whole inning's worth of difference there.

 

So let's see if we can make some sense of this jumbled statement.

 

Most guys regularly pitch into the 6th inning -- Marquis has done so almost always (21 of 24 starts).

 

Fewer guy regularly pitch past the 6th inning. Marquis has done so in exactly half of his starts (12 of 24).

 

So the INTO part he most certainly does consistently. The PAST part he does half the time.

 

And once again where is his ERA at since June?

What does that have to do with whether or not he eats innings? Quit trying to distort the issue.

 

Also it would be nice if you could try having a debate without smartass comments.

LOL! Some bigtime pot-kettle stuff there. Perhaps if you'd have heeded your own advice earlier, you wouldn't have your feelings hurt now.

 

Believe me my feelings arent hurt at all, but like I said Im done with you

[NCCubFan]

OK, Tim has already requested TWICE in this thread that the insults stop, yet they continue. Consider this a final warning; any more insults and the thread will be locked, as well as any possible action Modzilla may consider appropriate for ignoring Tim's requests.

[davearm]

To clarify your stance, what is your definition of an innnings eater? Do you take into account any of the factors that I mentioned above or are you strictly looking at GS/IP? Since Anze was able to come up with the GS/IP, so quickly, where does Marquis rank in the NL as far as GS/IP among pitchers with over 100IP this year?

Amongst the 59 pitcher in the NL with >100IP:

 

Marquis' IP ranks 30th.

Marquis' IP/GS ranks 44th.

Marquis' VORP ranks 33rd.

[CUBZ99]

To clarify your stance, what is your definition of an innnings eater? Do you take into account any of the factors that I mentioned above or are you strictly looking at GS/IP? Since Anze was able to come up with the GS/IP, so quickly, where does Marquis rank in the NL as far as GS/IP among pitchers with over 100IP this year?

Amongst the 59 pitcher in the NL with >100IP:

 

Marquis' IP ranks 30th.

Marquis' IP/GS ranks 44th.

Marquis' VORP ranks 33rd.

 

How does that not qualify as a quality innings eater? Once again, nobody is arguing that Marquis is a top of the line Ace.

[Keener98]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

[UK1679666180]

There's some legit concern there w/Marquis, (although I thought he pitched well enough vs. Philly to not merit much criticism for that one start) the command of his sinker has not been as good as it was earlier in the season. If his sinker remains belt high like it has for several of his last starts, he'll be putting some poor numbers. I think there's some extra work for Rothschild w/Marquis to make sure he doesn't fall into the same traps he did last year.

 

He's still up in the zone with his sinker.

[Keener98]

There's some legit concern there w/Marquis, (although I thought he pitched well enough vs. Philly to not merit much criticism for that one start) the command of his sinker has not been as good as it was earlier in the season. If his sinker remains belt high like it has for several of his last starts, he'll be putting some poor numbers. I think there's some extra work for Rothschild w/Marquis to make sure he doesn't fall into the same traps he did last year.

 

He's still up in the zone with his sinker.

 

And he still sucks

[NCCubFan]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

[ctcf]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

 

Yea how does a run shy of a quality start qualify as sucking?

[Rob]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

 

Yea how does a run shy of a quality start qualify as sucking?

 

It's a 6.00 ERA

[Drew Doughty]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

 

but he had that inning, and it wasn't a good start.

 

except for the two home runs lilly gave up last night, he had a good day!

[CubColtPacer]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

 

but he had that inning, and it wasn't a good start.

 

except for the two home runs lilly gave up last night, he had a good day!

 

Yeah, it wasn't a good start, but it does appear like Marquis is stabilizing a bit. His last 4 starts have only raised his ERA by .05 combined. He still has a pretty good shot of staying right around a 4.50 for the season, which would be just fine. That would make him a league average pitcher overall, and a slightly above average starting pitcher.

[Mizzou]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

That seems to be the problem with Marquis -- when he has a bad outing, it's usually one inning where he just self-implodes. Luckily, and unlike most other bad outings, he was able to bounce back after that bad inning today and pitch well for the rest of the game.

[Keener98]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

That seems to be the problem with Marquis -- when he has a bad outing, it's usually one inning where he just self-implodes. Luckily, and unlike most other bad outings, he was able to bounce back after that bad inning today and pitch well for the rest of the game.

 

Agreed, and Im very happy he was able to pitch well the rest of the game. Had it not been for some very very bad baserunning by the Reds in the 2nd inning, his outing could have been alot worse, but thank God Griffey forgot how to run the bases.

[Keener98]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

 

but he had that inning, and it wasn't a good start.

 

except for the two home runs lilly gave up last night, he had a good day!

 

Yea if a pitcher gives up 6 runs in 1 inning, and then doesnt allow anymore runs, is that considered a good start? Believe me, Im hoping Marquis can give up 4 or less the rest of the year, but Im not counting on it.

[Electron Blue]

And Marquis sucks after a good outing just like I expected. What a shocker

Actually, save one inning, he had a good start today.

 

but he had that inning, and it wasn't a good start.

 

except for the two home runs lilly gave up last night, he had a good day!

 

Yea if a pitcher gives up 6 runs in 1 inning, and then doesnt allow anymore runs, is that considered a good start? Believe me, Im hoping Marquis can give up 4 or less the rest of the year, but Im not counting on it.

 

is it good for his team? certainly not -- runs are runs, no matter in what manner of bunching they're scored. But I think it's worth noting that a single bad inning (or single bad pitch) doomed the starter's stat line.

[UK1679666180]

He only had one bad inning, he still has been up with his sinker. Most of his outs were flyball outs.

 

Until he quits overthrowing his sinker, it'll be belt high again.

[Keener98]

Great outing by Marquis, I was really worried in the 1st, but he worked out of it and threw a good game. We need some of our other pitchers to pick up the slack of Lilly right now, and Marquis last night and Hill his last start have done that.