Ideas about Murton

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that an outfielder make as strong a throw as he can as long as it's on target, and if it makes it to the second cut-off man, then great.

 

By a similar token, I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for hitting the double cut with a strong throw.

[Peoriaman]

Pretty much all of us played a lot of baseball. Many have coached. The double cut in my time has always been should the weaker armed OF not be able to hit the 2nd one. If he can he throws it past and hits the 2nd.

 

If the OF can deliver the throw closer to the plate on a solid throw, why wouldn't you?

 

 

because if the throw gets by from the second guy, there is no failsafe--the run scores--thus, the double cut to protect against that. Also, as previously mentioned, the sooner a cut-off guy has it in his glove, the less likely the 3rd base coach will send the runner home.

[Peoriaman]

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that an outfielder make as strong a throw as he can as long as it's on target, and if it makes it to the second cut-off man, then great.

 

By a similar token, I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for hitting the double cut with a strong throw.

 

 

I have--when the ball goes over the second cut-off guy or when it skips by him with nobody to back him up........

[Tracer Bullet]

There was a Philly double to right with a runnner on first. Murton played the ball off the wall and overthrew the cut-off guy. The Cubs used a double cut and the second guy caught it and held the runner at third, as the first guy would have. Sut said Murton overthrew the cut-off guy--which he did. Some here think Murton should overthrow the cut-off guy, that the cut-off guy is superfluous. I agree with Sut.

 

 

All that said, it wasn't a huge deal.

 

The great part of your posts is that you don't frame the question in a biased manner.

 

Those of us who disagree with Sut and you think Murton threw to the correct cut-off man (the 2nd one). We're not arguing that he should "overthrow the cut-off man." There were 2 cut-off men and Murton made a good throw to the 2nd one.

 

 

so the first guy is superfluous? He serves no purpose? I have played and coached baseball for 45 years and this is the first time I ever heard that the outfielder is supposed to intentionally overthrow the first cut-off man. In fact, I am stunned anybody is even proposing this.

 

 

Listen, I like Murton. He overthrew a cut-off guy and the double cut served its purpose. Again, Matt CAN make mistakes. You guys sound silly trying to make it sound like he didn't.

 

You sound silly trying to make a good throw sound like a mistake (I'm getting tired of you calling me silly, btw).

 

If the 2 guys are properly spaced, they both have a purpose. If the throw is short, bad, or the OF doesn't have a good arm, the first guy is there. If the OF can easily throw it to the 2nd guy or if the first guy misses the ball (either his fault or the OFs) the 2nd guy gets it. In some cases, you'll see an OF just pick up a ball and whirl and throw toward the 2 guys w/o really even looking. He doesn't care who catches it b/c it more important that he gets it to an infielder as quickly as possible. I'm not really a fan of that style b/c the throws tend to be weaker and erratic but whatever.

 

If the OF gets to the ball and could easily throw it to the 2nd cut-off (standing near the back of the infield dirt), but instead throws it to the closer guy, the relay is going to be much longer. And at the ML level, most RF can throw a lot farther than most 2B, so it makes sense to throw to the 2nd cut-off guy when possible.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that an outfielder make as strong a throw as he can as long as it's on target, and if it makes it to the second cut-off man, then great.

 

By a similar token, I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for hitting the double cut with a strong throw.

 

 

I have--when the ball goes over the second cut-off guy or when it ships by him.....

 

That's not what I said. Both those instances are poor throws, and would be considered poor throws no matter who is being thrown to. I said I've never heard of an outfielder getting in trouble for hitting the second cutoff with a strong throw.

[Tracer Bullet]

Pretty much all of us played a lot of baseball. Many have coached. The double cut in my time has always been should the weaker armed OF not be able to hit the 2nd one. If he can he throws it past and hits the 2nd.

 

If the OF can deliver the throw closer to the plate on a solid throw, why wouldn't you?

 

I can't imagine any ML team telling Bobby Abreau, Cuddyer, Ichiro, pick your favorite good-throwing OF "don't throw it to the 2nd cut-off guy, just throw it 150' and let Jose Vidro (or who ever is playing 2B) throw it the other 150."

[Tracer Bullet]

Pretty much all of us played a lot of baseball. Many have coached. The double cut in my time has always been should the weaker armed OF not be able to hit the 2nd one. If he can he throws it past and hits the 2nd.

 

If the OF can deliver the throw closer to the plate on a solid throw, why wouldn't you?

 

 

because if the throw gets by from the second guy, there is no failsafe--the run scores--thus, the double cut to protect against that. Also, as previously mentioned, the sooner a cut-off guy has it in his glove, the less likely the 3rd base coach will send the runner home.

 

The difference between the time it takes a ball to get to the 1st cut off and the 2nd cut off can't be more than 1-2 seconds. They're typically 50' apart (or less). In most instances, the coach has already stopped or sent the runner by the time the cut off catches the ball. The decision is made when the first throw is still in the air. Which is obviously why sometimes the cut-off man bobbles the ball but the guy can't score b/c he's already come to a stop after rounding 3rd.

[Peoriaman]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

[Tracer Bullet]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

That's silly, sorry it just is.

 

Yes - we disagree. If you make a strong throw to the 2nd guy, that was a good play.

[SouthSideRyan]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

[imb]

I always thought a double-cut was when you had sex twice in one night

[Skyballer]

I always thought a double-cut was when you had sex twice in one night

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I always thought a double-cut was when you had sex twice in one night

 

isn't that a double-dip? or is that when you do it twice with the same gal?

[imb]

I always thought a double-cut was when you had sex twice in one night

 

isn't that a double-dip? or is that when you do it twice with the same gal?

 

That's with the same girl

[Peoriaman]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

[CubinNY]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

 

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

[Skyballer]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

 

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

:idea:

This should be obvious.

[Peoriaman]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

 

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

 

major league teams use the double cut all the time.

[CubinNY]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

 

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

 

major league teams use the double cut all the time.

When?

 

Forget it, don't answer. I don't want to know.

 

I'm off to Jackson to see wood.

Edited July 31, 2007 by CubinNY

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

 

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is.

[CubinNY]

I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.

 

So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max.

 

Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.

 

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is.

 

Tell me, what is a double cut?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is.

 

Tell me, what is a double cut?

 

A double cut is when both middle infielders go out and one of them receives the throw. For the play in question, DeRosa and Theriot both got into position to receive a throw from Murton, with some space between them. There's been a good deal of debate on the exact purpose in the thread, but the point is that one of them receives the throw from Murton. A double cut means Murton to DeRosa or Theriot to the plate, not Murton to DeRosa to Theriot to the plate.

[TruffleShuffle]

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is.

 

Tell me, what is a double cut?

 

A double cut is when both middle infielders go out and one of them receives the throw. For the play in question, DeRosa and Theriot both got into position to receive a throw from Murton, with some space between them. There's been a good deal of debate on the exact purpose in the thread, but the point is that one of them receives the throw from Murton. A double cut means Murton to DeRosa or Theriot to the plate, not Murton to DeRosa to Theriot to the plate.

 

yeah you only need two cutoff men if Pierre and Jock Jones are involved in the play.

[Peoriaman]

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is.

 

Tell me, what is a double cut?

 

A double cut is when both middle infielders go out and one of them receives the throw. For the play in question, DeRosa and Theriot both got into position to receive a throw from Murton, with some space between them. There's been a good deal of debate on the exact purpose in the thread, but the point is that one of them receives the throw from Murton. A double cut means Murton to DeRosa or Theriot to the plate, not Murton to DeRosa to Theriot to the plate.

 

 

Well said. I have yet to see a MLB team not using a double cut.

 

It is to protect against a cut-off man getting missed.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't.

 

Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine.

 

I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored.

 

Good play by Murton and Theriot.

 

I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is.

 

Tell me, what is a double cut?

 

A double cut is when both middle infielders go out and one of them receives the throw. For the play in question, DeRosa and Theriot both got into position to receive a throw from Murton, with some space between them. There's been a good deal of debate on the exact purpose in the thread, but the point is that one of them receives the throw from Murton. A double cut means Murton to DeRosa or Theriot to the plate, not Murton to DeRosa to Theriot to the plate.

 

yeah you only need two cutoff men if Pierre and Jock Jones are involved in the play.

 

But the whole notion that Murton missed a cutoff man in that situation is all wrong. There are two out there to make it easier for an OF making a tougher throw. He hit one. That's why they are two and why the notion that he did something wrong there is just asinine.