Jones to get more chances, Pie losing out

[Tracer Bullet]

they sure stuck to their guns on the whole "pie is here and here to stay, he's our everyday centerfielder"... how long did that last, like 2 weeks?

 

Didn't take me long to learn that most of what Lou says is complete BS.

 

How so? He was the everyday centerfielder. Then he started to suck terribly. You'd rather Lou play Dusty and keep underperformers in the lineup everyday just because he made some statement weeks ago? Everything is contingent on performance, period. You suck, you sit.

 

Lou's been more consistent on this than just about any manager I've ever seen on the North Side. Eyre, Jones, Pie, Izzy.....all have grabbed bench and hard because they weren't cutting it.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. Lou's been around long enough that he should know that all players, regardless of quality, go through bad stretches. You can't bench every player if he hits a slump. That's stupid.

 

Pie's not in a slump, he's just not good enough yet. There's a difference, in his case.

 

And I couldn't care less how 'tired' you get of an argument.

 

Well, I'm glad your expert evaluation has able to determine how good Pie is at this stage in his career. It's invaluable to be able to discern the difference between a guy that's not ready and a guy that's going through the adjustment that nearly every guy does when he first hits the majors. With that type of talent, you should consider joining a ML team.

 

As for the statement - why come out and say a player is going to be an everyday CF (or whatever) when you know you're going to yank them if they're not good right away. Has Lou never managed a rookie? Does he really think every good player to ever play was great from day 1 and never looked back?

 

Not to mention that the general practice of moving guys in/out of the lineup trying to chase the hot streak is a stupid way to manage.

[Tracer Bullet]

The games played by Jones so far in those 185 at bats are a "sunk cost" so to speak. We would just need him to hit in the 825 range for the rest of the season, not hit high enough to bring his season average to that level (although that would be nice), for him to help the team. It's what he can do for the team from here on out that matters, wouldn't you agree?

 

They're not going to agree, their minds are made up. Jacque Jones bad. Period. Bad in Minnesota. Bad when he signed. Bad last year. (Even though he was pretty good, he will always be bad bad bad). Very bad this year. He'll be bad til the end of time, no matter what, forever and ever amen. It is by definition impossible for Jacque Jones to ever do anything good. Wouldn't you agree? =;

 

I'm glad you're going to post w/o reading any of the other comments. It's always nice to have an uninformed generalization of others' opinions.

 

Of course, if you had read the rest of the thread, you'd see that I said he had a great year against RHP in MN and was very good last year against RHP and that his career #s are better than average. But what I said is that doesn't change the fact that he's been terrible this year and it's not like it's the first time - he's had quite a few years of downright bad play.

 

I guess that doesn't really play into your argument that JJ is some sort of victim here or something and that we're all ignoring his greatness. Not that you're going to read this post anyway.

[CubColtPacer]

To sit him for Jones and/or Pagan is just stupid.

It's certainly not stupid to sit Pie for Pagan against lefties.

 

Really?

 

Pagan has a .742 OPS against LHP this year, right? and .596 against LHP last year, right? Pie may not match those #s, but frankly I don't care. In 50 ABs, Pagan has a .281 OBP against LHP. Whatever Pie's #s are, the difference between them and Pagan's #s is less significant than getting our best position prospect regular ABs. I don't want Pie to be in a platoon, I want him to play every day and see all pitchers and learn to hit them. If Lou isn't prepared to do that, we need to send him to AAA (which is probably dumb b/c our CFs are so bad, that we might as well let Pie learn at this level and take advantage of his great defense).

 

So, to reiterate, playing Jones or Pagan over Pie is just stupid.

 

Pagan is the option that's really stupid. You could make a case that Jones has to play to boost his trade value but Pagan is just a low-ceiling prospect with no trade value. Having Pie lose starts to Pagan is indefensible.

I think I could make a pretty good case that sitting a player with a .277 OPS against lefties is good for the team. We are in a race for the playoffs after all.

 

Really? B/c it's 32 ABs, so I'd like to hear this "good case" you're going to build for sitting our #1 prospect, who is 22, for a non-prospect like Pagan, who hits LHP terribly. You realize if Pie goes 3/4 with 3 singles against a LHP in his next game, his OPS jumps like 150 points? Maybe Pie can't hit LHP and never has been able to in his career (I don't know what his MiLB splits are), but again - you're not replacing him with a great hitter. It's hard to say what the difference b/t Pagan and Pie is against LHP b/c you don't really have enough of a sample at the ML level to know how good Pie is. But again, if the choice is Pie against all pitchers, learning to hit, and getting regular ABs, or sitting him in favor of crap like Pagan, he should play every day. I don't really think Pie is going to OPS .277 against LHP if he faced them regularly, so whatever the difference is between Pagan and Pie, the 3 ABs they're going to get at the bottom of the order isn't going to make a lot of difference in our playoff chase.

 

But please, make your "good case" - I'm all hears.

 

Pie's AAA splits:

 

Against RHP: 93 AB's, .462/.510/.667

Against LHP: 28 AB's, .143/.226/.214

 

2006:

 

Against RHP, 400 AB's, .293/.349/.500

Against LHP, 152 AB's, .256/.322/.327

 

Pie is likely to have a .500 OPS or less in the major leagues against lefthanders at least this year.

[Soul]

they sure stuck to their guns on the whole "pie is here and here to stay, he's our everyday centerfielder"... how long did that last, like 2 weeks?

 

Didn't take me long to learn that most of what Lou says is complete BS.

 

How so? He was the everyday centerfielder. Then he started to suck terribly. You'd rather Lou play Dusty and keep underperformers in the lineup everyday just because he made some statement weeks ago? Everything is contingent on performance, period. You suck, you sit.

 

Lou's been more consistent on this than just about any manager I've ever seen on the North Side. Eyre, Jones, Pie, Izzy.....all have grabbed bench and hard because they weren't cutting it.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. Lou's been around long enough that he should know that all players, regardless of quality, go through bad stretches. You can't bench every player if he hits a slump. That's stupid.

 

Pie's not in a slump, he's just not good enough yet. There's a difference, in his case.

 

And I couldn't care less how 'tired' you get of an argument.

 

Well, I'm glad your expert evaluation has able to determine how good Pie is at this stage in his career. It's invaluable to be able to discern the difference between a guy that's not ready and a guy that's going through the adjustment that nearly every guy does when he first hits the majors. With that type of talent, you should consider joining a ML team.

 

As for the statement - why come out and say a player is going to be an everyday CF (or whatever) when you know you're going to yank them if they're not good right away. Has Lou never managed a rookie? Does he really think every good player to ever play was great from day 1 and never looked back?

 

Not to mention that the general practice of moving guys in/out of the lineup trying to chase the hot streak is a stupid way to manage.

 

It doesn't take rocket science to see he needs more development. Why do you care how Lou chooses to move along that development? You are basically calling him an idiot because he's not developing Pie the way you want him to. Just because he doesn't play him every day, right here & right now, doesn't mean squat as to whether or not he'll be a failure. Maybe he just needs more off the field instruction, which is what is happening. Who are you to say that's the death knell for the kid?

 

As for his statement, as I said it was true at the time. I'm not sure why you keep trying to suggest it was a lie or hypocrisy just because he didn't enslave himself to it for the entire season.

[Guest]

Pie's AAA splits:

 

Against RHP: 93 AB's, .462/.510/.667

Against LHP: 28 AB's, .143/.226/.214

 

2006:

 

Against RHP, 400 AB's, .293/.349/.500

Against LHP, 152 AB's, .256/.322/.327

 

Pie is likely to have a .500 OPS or less in the major leagues against lefthanders at least this year.

 

2005 at AA West Tenn (and the SL is a pitcher's league, unlike the PCL):

 

Against RHP, 142 AB: .324/.362/592

Against LHP, 87 AB: .253/.295/.448

 

Can't seem to find anything before 2005.

[Tracer Bullet]

Pie's AAA splits:

 

Against RHP: 93 AB's, .462/.510/.667

Against LHP: 28 AB's, .143/.226/.214

 

2006:

 

Against RHP, 400 AB's, .293/.349/.500

Against LHP, 152 AB's, .256/.322/.327

 

Pie is likely to have a .500 OPS or less in the major leagues against lefthanders at least this year.

 

2005 at AA West Tenn (and the SL is a pitcher's league, unlike the PCL):

 

Against RHP, 142 AB: .324/.362/592

Against LHP, 87 AB: .253/.295/.448

 

Can't seem to find anything before 2005.

 

Thanks for the info guys. Where do you find MiLB splits?

 

Anyway, I don't think there's likely to be a significant difference between what Pie can put up against LHP and what Pagan can. Pagan's OPS might be higher, but given how few ABs we'd be considering, I don't think the effect of the standings is going to be noticeable.

[CubColtPacer]

Pie's AAA splits:

 

Against RHP: 93 AB's, .462/.510/.667

Against LHP: 28 AB's, .143/.226/.214

 

2006:

 

Against RHP, 400 AB's, .293/.349/.500

Against LHP, 152 AB's, .256/.322/.327

 

Pie is likely to have a .500 OPS or less in the major leagues against lefthanders at least this year.

 

2005 at AA West Tenn (and the SL is a pitcher's league, unlike the PCL):

 

Against RHP, 142 AB: .324/.362/592

Against LHP, 87 AB: .253/.295/.448

 

Can't seem to find anything before 2005.

 

Thanks for the info guys. Where do you find MiLB splits?

 

Anyway, I don't think there's likely to be a significant difference between what Pie can put up against LHP and what Pagan can. Pagan's OPS might be higher, but given how few ABs we'd be considering, I don't think the effect of the standings is going to be noticeable.

 

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/

 

It can sometimes be a confusing site to navigate, but it has lots of good info.

[hawkcub]

Jones is being highlighted for a trade. Simple as that. As the Trade deadline gets closer, teams may give more for him. He was a .300 hitter last year. If he plays well interest will go up.

[Tracer Bullet]

they sure stuck to their guns on the whole "pie is here and here to stay, he's our everyday centerfielder"... how long did that last, like 2 weeks?

 

Didn't take me long to learn that most of what Lou says is complete BS.

 

How so? He was the everyday centerfielder. Then he started to suck terribly. You'd rather Lou play Dusty and keep underperformers in the lineup everyday just because he made some statement weeks ago? Everything is contingent on performance, period. You suck, you sit.

 

Lou's been more consistent on this than just about any manager I've ever seen on the North Side. Eyre, Jones, Pie, Izzy.....all have grabbed bench and hard because they weren't cutting it.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. Lou's been around long enough that he should know that all players, regardless of quality, go through bad stretches. You can't bench every player if he hits a slump. That's stupid.

 

Pie's not in a slump, he's just not good enough yet. There's a difference, in his case.

 

And I couldn't care less how 'tired' you get of an argument.

 

Well, I'm glad your expert evaluation has able to determine how good Pie is at this stage in his career. It's invaluable to be able to discern the difference between a guy that's not ready and a guy that's going through the adjustment that nearly every guy does when he first hits the majors. With that type of talent, you should consider joining a ML team.

 

As for the statement - why come out and say a player is going to be an everyday CF (or whatever) when you know you're going to yank them if they're not good right away. Has Lou never managed a rookie? Does he really think every good player to ever play was great from day 1 and never looked back?

 

Not to mention that the general practice of moving guys in/out of the lineup trying to chase the hot streak is a stupid way to manage.

 

It doesn't take rocket science to see he needs more development. Why do you care how Lou chooses to move along that development? You are basically calling him an idiot because he's not developing Pie the way you want him to. Just because he doesn't play him every day, right here & right now, doesn't mean squat as to whether or not he'll be a failure. Maybe he just needs more off the field instruction, which is what is happening. Who are you to say that's the death knell for the kid?

 

As for his statement, as I said it was true at the time. I'm not sure why you keep trying to suggest it was a lie or hypocrisy just because he didn't enslave himself to it for the entire season.

 

No, I'm not blasting Lou for not doing it my way. I'm blasting Lou b/c he's playing Pie like he plays everyone he doesn't consider a stud (Soriano, ARam, Lee) - chase the hot streak. Pie struggled over those first 2 weeks and he quickly hit the bench regularly. Replaced by Pagan and Jones.

 

"Enslave himself to it for the entire season?" Talk about disingenuous. Pie was the everyday CF for about 3 weeks. When you bring your #1 prospect up and tell the media he's going to be your everyday CF, and 3 weeks later sharing time w/ 2 other guys - your statement is BS.

[Guest]

Pie's AAA splits:

 

Against RHP: 93 AB's, .462/.510/.667

Against LHP: 28 AB's, .143/.226/.214

 

2006:

 

Against RHP, 400 AB's, .293/.349/.500

Against LHP, 152 AB's, .256/.322/.327

 

Pie is likely to have a .500 OPS or less in the major leagues against lefthanders at least this year.

 

2005 at AA West Tenn (and the SL is a pitcher's league, unlike the PCL):

 

Against RHP, 142 AB: .324/.362/592

Against LHP, 87 AB: .253/.295/.448

 

Can't seem to find anything before 2005.

 

Thanks for the info guys. Where do you find MiLB splits?

 

Anyway, I don't think there's likely to be a significant difference between what Pie can put up against LHP and what Pagan can. Pagan's OPS might be higher, but given how few ABs we'd be considering, I don't think the effect of the standings is going to be noticeable.

 

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/

 

It can sometimes be a confusing site to navigate, but it has lots of good info.

 

And - sadly - not everything is updated regularly in-season.

[Tracer Bullet]

Pie's AAA splits:

 

Against RHP: 93 AB's, .462/.510/.667

Against LHP: 28 AB's, .143/.226/.214

 

2006:

 

Against RHP, 400 AB's, .293/.349/.500

Against LHP, 152 AB's, .256/.322/.327

 

Pie is likely to have a .500 OPS or less in the major leagues against lefthanders at least this year.

 

2005 at AA West Tenn (and the SL is a pitcher's league, unlike the PCL):

 

Against RHP, 142 AB: .324/.362/592

Against LHP, 87 AB: .253/.295/.448

 

Can't seem to find anything before 2005.

 

Thanks for the info guys. Where do you find MiLB splits?

 

Anyway, I don't think there's likely to be a significant difference between what Pie can put up against LHP and what Pagan can. Pagan's OPS might be higher, but given how few ABs we'd be considering, I don't think the effect of the standings is going to be noticeable.

 

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/

 

It can sometimes be a confusing site to navigate, but it has lots of good info.

 

thanks

[Soul]

they sure stuck to their guns on the whole "pie is here and here to stay, he's our everyday centerfielder"... how long did that last, like 2 weeks?

 

Didn't take me long to learn that most of what Lou says is complete BS.

 

How so? He was the everyday centerfielder. Then he started to suck terribly. You'd rather Lou play Dusty and keep underperformers in the lineup everyday just because he made some statement weeks ago? Everything is contingent on performance, period. You suck, you sit.

 

Lou's been more consistent on this than just about any manager I've ever seen on the North Side. Eyre, Jones, Pie, Izzy.....all have grabbed bench and hard because they weren't cutting it.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. Lou's been around long enough that he should know that all players, regardless of quality, go through bad stretches. You can't bench every player if he hits a slump. That's stupid.

 

Pie's not in a slump, he's just not good enough yet. There's a difference, in his case.

 

And I couldn't care less how 'tired' you get of an argument.

 

Well, I'm glad your expert evaluation has able to determine how good Pie is at this stage in his career. It's invaluable to be able to discern the difference between a guy that's not ready and a guy that's going through the adjustment that nearly every guy does when he first hits the majors. With that type of talent, you should consider joining a ML team.

 

As for the statement - why come out and say a player is going to be an everyday CF (or whatever) when you know you're going to yank them if they're not good right away. Has Lou never managed a rookie? Does he really think every good player to ever play was great from day 1 and never looked back?

 

Not to mention that the general practice of moving guys in/out of the lineup trying to chase the hot streak is a stupid way to manage.

 

It doesn't take rocket science to see he needs more development. Why do you care how Lou chooses to move along that development? You are basically calling him an idiot because he's not developing Pie the way you want him to. Just because he doesn't play him every day, right here & right now, doesn't mean squat as to whether or not he'll be a failure. Maybe he just needs more off the field instruction, which is what is happening. Who are you to say that's the death knell for the kid?

 

As for his statement, as I said it was true at the time. I'm not sure why you keep trying to suggest it was a lie or hypocrisy just because he didn't enslave himself to it for the entire season.

 

No, I'm not blasting Lou for not doing it my way. I'm blasting Lou b/c he's playing Pie like he plays everyone he doesn't consider a stud (Soriano, ARam, Lee) - chase the hot streak. Pie struggled over those first 2 weeks and he quickly hit the bench regularly. Replaced by Pagan and Jones.

 

"Enslave himself to it for the entire season?" Talk about disingenuous. Pie was the everyday CF for about 3 weeks. When you bring your #1 prospect up and tell the media he's going to be your everyday CF, and 3 weeks later sharing time w/ 2 other guys - your statement is BS.

 

I don't see why. Why does it necessarily mean he can't pull him and work with him for awhile? I just don't see the BS here.....at all. Pie's still at the prospect level, he's not an established vet.

[Tracer Bullet]

they sure stuck to their guns on the whole "pie is here and here to stay, he's our everyday centerfielder"... how long did that last, like 2 weeks?

 

Didn't take me long to learn that most of what Lou says is complete BS.

 

How so? He was the everyday centerfielder. Then he started to suck terribly. You'd rather Lou play Dusty and keep underperformers in the lineup everyday just because he made some statement weeks ago? Everything is contingent on performance, period. You suck, you sit.

 

Lou's been more consistent on this than just about any manager I've ever seen on the North Side. Eyre, Jones, Pie, Izzy.....all have grabbed bench and hard because they weren't cutting it.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. Lou's been around long enough that he should know that all players, regardless of quality, go through bad stretches. You can't bench every player if he hits a slump. That's stupid.

 

Pie's not in a slump, he's just not good enough yet. There's a difference, in his case.

 

And I couldn't care less how 'tired' you get of an argument.

 

Well, I'm glad your expert evaluation has able to determine how good Pie is at this stage in his career. It's invaluable to be able to discern the difference between a guy that's not ready and a guy that's going through the adjustment that nearly every guy does when he first hits the majors. With that type of talent, you should consider joining a ML team.

 

As for the statement - why come out and say a player is going to be an everyday CF (or whatever) when you know you're going to yank them if they're not good right away. Has Lou never managed a rookie? Does he really think every good player to ever play was great from day 1 and never looked back?

 

Not to mention that the general practice of moving guys in/out of the lineup trying to chase the hot streak is a stupid way to manage.

 

It doesn't take rocket science to see he needs more development. Why do you care how Lou chooses to move along that development? You are basically calling him an idiot because he's not developing Pie the way you want him to. Just because he doesn't play him every day, right here & right now, doesn't mean squat as to whether or not he'll be a failure. Maybe he just needs more off the field instruction, which is what is happening. Who are you to say that's the death knell for the kid?

 

As for his statement, as I said it was true at the time. I'm not sure why you keep trying to suggest it was a lie or hypocrisy just because he didn't enslave himself to it for the entire season.

 

No, I'm not blasting Lou for not doing it my way. I'm blasting Lou b/c he's playing Pie like he plays everyone he doesn't consider a stud (Soriano, ARam, Lee) - chase the hot streak. Pie struggled over those first 2 weeks and he quickly hit the bench regularly. Replaced by Pagan and Jones.

 

"Enslave himself to it for the entire season?" Talk about disingenuous. Pie was the everyday CF for about 3 weeks. When you bring your #1 prospect up and tell the media he's going to be your everyday CF, and 3 weeks later sharing time w/ 2 other guys - your statement is BS.

 

I don't see why. Why does it necessarily mean he can't pull him and work with him for awhile? I just don't see the BS here.....at all. Pie's still at the prospect level, he's not an established vet.

 

You don't see why saying someone is your everyday CF and then not starting them everyday just 3 weeks after making that statement is BS? I've read lots of your posts on this site, you're not dense, so are you just trying to be difficult?

 

Lou knew Pie was a prospect when he made that statement and the obvious implication is that they expect Pie might struggle now and then, but he's going to be the everyday starter anyway. And that's not at all how they handled it. He struggled and was yanked right away. Lou didn't have to come out and say Pie was the everyday CF. But he did and 3 weeks later, Pie started sitting regularly. So his statement is BS.

[Soul]

they sure stuck to their guns on the whole "pie is here and here to stay, he's our everyday centerfielder"... how long did that last, like 2 weeks?

 

Didn't take me long to learn that most of what Lou says is complete BS.

 

How so? He was the everyday centerfielder. Then he started to suck terribly. You'd rather Lou play Dusty and keep underperformers in the lineup everyday just because he made some statement weeks ago? Everything is contingent on performance, period. You suck, you sit.

 

Lou's been more consistent on this than just about any manager I've ever seen on the North Side. Eyre, Jones, Pie, Izzy.....all have grabbed bench and hard because they weren't cutting it.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. Lou's been around long enough that he should know that all players, regardless of quality, go through bad stretches. You can't bench every player if he hits a slump. That's stupid.

 

Pie's not in a slump, he's just not good enough yet. There's a difference, in his case.

 

And I couldn't care less how 'tired' you get of an argument.

 

Well, I'm glad your expert evaluation has able to determine how good Pie is at this stage in his career. It's invaluable to be able to discern the difference between a guy that's not ready and a guy that's going through the adjustment that nearly every guy does when he first hits the majors. With that type of talent, you should consider joining a ML team.

 

As for the statement - why come out and say a player is going to be an everyday CF (or whatever) when you know you're going to yank them if they're not good right away. Has Lou never managed a rookie? Does he really think every good player to ever play was great from day 1 and never looked back?

 

Not to mention that the general practice of moving guys in/out of the lineup trying to chase the hot streak is a stupid way to manage.

 

It doesn't take rocket science to see he needs more development. Why do you care how Lou chooses to move along that development? You are basically calling him an idiot because he's not developing Pie the way you want him to. Just because he doesn't play him every day, right here & right now, doesn't mean squat as to whether or not he'll be a failure. Maybe he just needs more off the field instruction, which is what is happening. Who are you to say that's the death knell for the kid?

 

As for his statement, as I said it was true at the time. I'm not sure why you keep trying to suggest it was a lie or hypocrisy just because he didn't enslave himself to it for the entire season.

 

No, I'm not blasting Lou for not doing it my way. I'm blasting Lou b/c he's playing Pie like he plays everyone he doesn't consider a stud (Soriano, ARam, Lee) - chase the hot streak. Pie struggled over those first 2 weeks and he quickly hit the bench regularly. Replaced by Pagan and Jones.

 

"Enslave himself to it for the entire season?" Talk about disingenuous. Pie was the everyday CF for about 3 weeks. When you bring your #1 prospect up and tell the media he's going to be your everyday CF, and 3 weeks later sharing time w/ 2 other guys - your statement is BS.

 

I don't see why. Why does it necessarily mean he can't pull him and work with him for awhile? I just don't see the BS here.....at all. Pie's still at the prospect level, he's not an established vet.

 

You don't see why saying someone is your everyday CF and then not starting them everyday just 3 weeks after making that statement is BS? I've read lots of your posts on this site, you're not dense, so are you just trying to be difficult?

 

Lou knew Pie was a prospect when he made that statement and the obvious implication is that they expect Pie might struggle now and then, but he's going to be the everyday starter anyway. And that's not at all how they handled it. He struggled and was yanked right away. Lou didn't have to come out and say Pie was the everyday CF. But he did and 3 weeks later, Pie started sitting regularly. So his statement is BS.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm asking you to apply a little perspective to Lou's comments here. He's a developing prospect. When I heard those comments I was never expecting Lou to just keep him in no matter what. Yes, he said he was the everyday CF. But given his status as a developing player, I never dreamed anyone would think that's the same as saying, for example, Andrew Jones is your everyday CF. There's the long-term future of the player to think of here, and if a judgment is made that the long-term future is best served with some off-field work for awhile, I think that's a fair method of action. Lord knows putting him back into the hands of our minor league hitting instructors isn't going to help -- they haven't produced a hitter in decades.

 

I'm actually suprised you're all over Lou for this one. I can think of some other things that seem more.....deserving, than this.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

[Warren Brusstar]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Jacque Jones posted an .886 OPS v. RHP in 2006 and has a career .825 OPS v. RHP. That's a considerable asset if it's coming from your centerfielder. Indeed, only 3 qualifying MLB center-fielders have an OPS over .886 (Pence, Hunter, and Granderson) and only four more are between .825 and .886 (Rowand, Ichiro, Sizemore, and Suzuki). Twenty MLB center-fielders are below .825, including Beltran, Lofton, Mathews, Jr., Hall, Dejesus, Vernon Wells, Cameron, Church, Winn, Crisp, Andruw Jones, Chris Young, and Damon.

 

Jones obviously has had a terrible year to date. And he's not a reasonable option in a corner spot. But to describe Jones as "abysmal" when he's being contemplated as this team's CF is simply wrong. Obviously, he should never ever start against LHP, but he's more than a credible option in CF against RHP.

[CubinNY]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Excellent post.

 

The Cubs haven't developed any position players in a while now. The reasons are probably many, but among those are expecting players to start producing a maximum capacity right out of the gate while at the same time contiuning to play vetrans who suck.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Jacque Jones posted an .886 OPS v. RHP in 2006 and has a career .825 OPS v. RHP. That's a considerable asset if it's coming from your centerfielder. Indeed, only 3 qualifying MLB center-fielders have an OPS over .886 (Pence, Hunter, and Granderson) and only four more are between .825 and .886 (Rowand, Ichiro, Sizemore, and Suzuki). Twenty MLB center-fielders are below .825, including Beltran, Lofton, Mathews, Jr., Hall, Dejesus, Vernon Wells, Cameron, Church, Winn, Crisp, Andruw Jones, Chris Young, and Damon.

 

Jones obviously has had a terrible year to date. And he's not a reasonable option in a corner spot. But to describe Jones as "abysmal" when he's being contemplated as this team's CF is simply wrong. Obviously, he should never ever start against LHP, but he's more than a credible option in CF against RHP.

 

Jones is just broken at the plate right now. It's not as if he only had a .750 OPS against RHP in the first half, and is a good bet to turn it around. He's got a .635 OPS in nearly 200 PA's against them this year, and they're going in the wrong direction(OPS v. RHP by month: .662 in 79 April PA's, .630 in 65 May PA's, and .523 in 50 June PA's). Add in the fact that Pie is pretty capable against RHP too(.723 OPS despite his struggles, plus the minor league success previously posted) and a significantly better defender and baserunner, and it makes it an easier decision.

 

What it boils down to is why gamble on Jones turning it around when you can make a similar(better?) gamble with Pie and enjoy the other benefits that choosing him provides(defense/baserunning, grooming future performance, having Soriano's buddy to thumb wrestle with, etc.)?

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm asking you to apply a little perspective to Lou's comments here. He's a developing prospect. When I heard those comments I was never expecting Lou to just keep him in no matter what. Yes, he said he was the everyday CF. But given his status as a developing player, I never dreamed anyone would think that's the same as saying, for example, Andrew Jones is your everyday CF. There's the long-term future of the player to think of here, and if a judgment is made that the long-term future is best served with some off-field work for awhile, I think that's a fair method of action. Lord knows putting him back into the hands of our minor league hitting instructors isn't going to help -- they haven't produced a hitter in decades.

 

I'm actually suprised you're all over Lou for this one. I can think of some other things that seem more.....deserving, than this.

 

As I said several posts ago - I learned long ago that most of what Lou said is BS - this isn't the only thing that upsets me.

 

But comparing calling Pie the everyday CF and AJ the everyday CF is apples/oranges. If tomorrow Cox said "Jones is our everyday CF" do you think any beat writer in Atlanta would even write it down (actually, they might this year b/c Jones has been bad, but still)? That's different than calling up a guy from the minors and saying "he's our everyday CF" and then yanking him 3 weeks later. Seriously, did they expect him to hit .300 with 10 HRs in his first month? He's certainly struggled, but Lou needs a little foresight - he had to know that would happen. If Pie had played 2+ months and was hitting .200 and looked lost at the plate, would I be pissed at Lou for yanking him out of the everyday role? Not at all. But 3 weeks is a quick trigger.

 

And whether it's good for his development or good strategy or whatever is beside the point. If 3 weeks ago the Cubs thought Pie was ready to be an everyday CF and that he should learn how to hit at this level, then the fact that what's happened over the last 3 weeks has apparently made them 2nd guess that decision makes me think either they're terrible at knowing when a player is ready (possible) or that they're terrible at decision-making b/c they don't stick with a decision long enough to know if it'll work (also very possible), or both.

[Bote McBoteface]

You guys need to chill out on this, really.

 

Pie was a great option for us when we sucked. Let the young guy get at bats in a season that's pretty much a waste. Our team got hot, and we're now right in the middle of what looks like it will be a great playoff race, and running Pie out there just won't cut it if we want to win. Everybody in this organization knows that Pie is the centerfielder of the future. We let him get a taste of big league action, he knows now what he has to do to adjust to being a big league player.

 

Starting Jones for a while makes perfect sense. He had a really nice season last year, but got benched when he started slowly this season (Just like Pie got benched when he started sucking) He has a big contract, it's time to showcase him for a trade and hope that he produces enough for some GM to take the bait.

[Soul]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Excellent post.

 

The Cubs haven't developed any position players in a while now. The reasons are probably many, but among those are expecting players to start producing a maximum capacity right out of the gate while at the same time contiuning to play vetrans who suck.

 

The problems with our players start much earlier than when they arrive at the majors. We tried playing guys like CPatt, that didn't help either because he was never actually developed beyond just letting him continue with his loopy, slow swing for years in the minors. That's probably the case with the majority of our positional talent in the minor leagues. There hasn't been one out of thousands in decades. I know what that tells me. Problem is down there just as much if not more than it is up here when it comes to our young positional talent.

[Tracer Bullet]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Jacque Jones posted an .886 OPS v. RHP in 2006 and has a career .825 OPS v. RHP. That's a considerable asset if it's coming from your centerfielder. Indeed, only 3 qualifying MLB center-fielders have an OPS over .886 (Pence, Hunter, and Granderson) and only four more are between .825 and .886 (Rowand, Ichiro, Sizemore, and Suzuki). Twenty MLB center-fielders are below .825, including Beltran, Lofton, Mathews, Jr., Hall, Dejesus, Vernon Wells, Cameron, Church, Winn, Crisp, Andruw Jones, Chris Young, and Damon.

 

Jones obviously has had a terrible year to date. And he's not a reasonable option in a corner spot. But to describe Jones as "abysmal" when he's being contemplated as this team's CF is simply wrong. Obviously, he should never ever start against LHP, but he's more than a credible option in CF against RHP.

 

Did you really just cut and paste this post? Or am I imagining things? Does that mean I have to go back and paste in my post about how unlikely it is that Jones is going to go from a .634 OPS against RHP to an .825 OPS against RHP overnight?

 

That's just weird.

[Warren Brusstar]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Jacque Jones posted an .886 OPS v. RHP in 2006 and has a career .825 OPS v. RHP. That's a considerable asset if it's coming from your centerfielder. Indeed, only 3 qualifying MLB center-fielders have an OPS over .886 (Pence, Hunter, and Granderson) and only four more are between .825 and .886 (Rowand, Ichiro, Sizemore, and Suzuki). Twenty MLB center-fielders are below .825, including Beltran, Lofton, Mathews, Jr., Hall, Dejesus, Vernon Wells, Cameron, Church, Winn, Crisp, Andruw Jones, Chris Young, and Damon.

 

Jones obviously has had a terrible year to date. And he's not a reasonable option in a corner spot. But to describe Jones as "abysmal" when he's being contemplated as this team's CF is simply wrong. Obviously, he should never ever start against LHP, but he's more than a credible option in CF against RHP.

 

Jones is just broken at the plate right now. It's not as if he only had a .750 OPS against RHP in the first half, and is a good bet to turn it around. He's got a .635 OPS in nearly 200 PA's against them this year, and they're going in the wrong direction(OPS v. RHP by month: .662 in 79 April PA's, .630 in 65 May PA's, and .523 in 50 June PA's). Add in the fact that Pie is pretty capable against RHP too(.723 OPS despite his struggles, plus the minor league success previously posted) and a significantly better defender and baserunner, and it makes it an easier decision.

 

What it boils down to is why gamble on Jones turning it around when you can make a similar(better?) gamble with Pie and enjoy the other benefits that choosing him provides(defense/baserunning, grooming future performance, having Soriano's buddy to thumb wrestle with, etc.)?

 

Don't get me wrong - my preference is that they play Pie for those very reasons. I just think it's ridiculous to suggest that Jones is an abysmal option against RHP. (Also, all of BP's metrics rate Jones as an above average CF both this year and in his career) Also, I don't think it's a tremendous risk to assume that Jones will be significantly better against RHP in the second half. His extensive career track record likely ensures it. You're free to believe his 200 plate appearance sample is his new performance standard; I prefer to believe his 4000 career plate appearances are more telling.

[Tracer Bullet]

You guys need to chill out on this, really.

 

Pie was a great option for us when we sucked. Let the young guy get at bats in a season that's pretty much a waste. Our team got hot, and we're now right in the middle of what looks like it will be a great playoff race, and running Pie out there just won't cut it if we want to win. Everybody in this organization knows that Pie is the centerfielder of the future. We let him get a taste of big league action, he knows now what he has to do to adjust to being a big league player.

 

Starting Jones for a while makes perfect sense. He had a really nice season last year, but got benched when he started slowly this season (Just like Pie got benched when he started sucking) He has a big contract, it's time to showcase him for a trade and hope that he produces enough for some GM to take the bait.

 

I just want to say I disagree with all of this, especially the premise that playing Jones (or anyone on the roster other than Pie, except maybe Soriano) in CF gives us a better chance to win this year.

 

Jones was great against RHP last year. You know what? Jones sucks this year. Look at his career numbers, they jump from 1 year to the next. There's no reason to think that last year's #s are going to be repeated and every reason to think they won't.

[Warren Brusstar]

If Pie is not going to get a shot now, when we have players who can't hit or defend CF like Pagan and Jones as the only alternatives, when is he going to get a chance? If you want to platoon him with Pagan for a while to hedge your bets and stay in contention, that's okay. But playing Pagan or the abysmal Jones in CF against RHP is inexcusable when Pie is in the system, never mind already on the 25 man roster.

 

You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes(most times) players struggle for a while breaking into the big leagues. Considering Pie's potential, current production(defense included), and (lack of) alternatives to him playing CF, he needs to be playing.

 

Jacque Jones posted an .886 OPS v. RHP in 2006 and has a career .825 OPS v. RHP. That's a considerable asset if it's coming from your centerfielder. Indeed, only 3 qualifying MLB center-fielders have an OPS over .886 (Pence, Hunter, and Granderson) and only four more are between .825 and .886 (Rowand, Ichiro, Sizemore, and Suzuki). Twenty MLB center-fielders are below .825, including Beltran, Lofton, Mathews, Jr., Hall, Dejesus, Vernon Wells, Cameron, Church, Winn, Crisp, Andruw Jones, Chris Young, and Damon.

 

Jones obviously has had a terrible year to date. And he's not a reasonable option in a corner spot. But to describe Jones as "abysmal" when he's being contemplated as this team's CF is simply wrong. Obviously, he should never ever start against LHP, but he's more than a credible option in CF against RHP.

 

Did you really just cut and paste this post? Or am I imagining things? Does that mean I have to go back and paste in my post about how unlikely it is that Jones is going to go from a .634 OPS against RHP to an .825 OPS against RHP overnight?

 

That's just weird.

 

Sample size.

 

Why is it that you refuse to believe Pie's 2007 MLB performance is indicative of his true performance level or that Murton's 2007 MLB performance is indicative of his true performance level, but want us to disregard Jones' 4000 career plate appearances and instead look to his poor performance in his most recent 200?