Lance Berkman

[Productive Outs]

although DLee is definitely a better hitter

 

career OPS+

Berkman: 147
Lee: 124

 

career EqA

Berkman: .321
Lee: .294

 

Berkman has been much more consistent than Lee has been.

[abuck1220]

And you just contradicted yourself with Berkman/Bagwell. Berkman had less protection before and was pounding the ball. Now he's getting fewer pitches to hit because Lee's there? Doesn't make sense.

 

Lineup protection is pretty much a myth. People talk about it all the time, but for all the talk there is no tangible connection between it and performance.

 

Well if you recall though...Bagwell was the one driving the train. Kent batted cleanup and Berkman was the #5 hitter. Hidalgo or Ensberg followed Berkman.

 

So Lance was getting good pitches to hit because he was in the middle of the mess and perceived as the weak link.

 

And lineup protection is much less a myth than the loogy. I can honestly say having pitched some in the past that there are guys you go after and guys you dont. you are living in the fantasy realm if you dont look on deck and say i would rather face him with a man on than this guy at the plate and get tatooed.

 

And why challenge the hitter when you know you can get the next guy out at the plate? He may get himself out on a bad pitch, but worse case scenario is that you go after the next guy.

 

you're living in a fantasy realm if you think that whatever experience you had playing baseball relates in any way to major league baseball.

[sunnydoo]

you're living in a fantasy realm if you think that whatever experience you had playing baseball relates in any way to major league baseball.

 

http://home.neo.rr.com/pummi/traff3.jpg

[BigbadB]

I'm pretty sure that Kent was hitting 3rd ahead of Bonds for a better portion of Bonds' 73 HR season.

 

Edit: That would make me incorrect. Kent batted 4th most of the season.

Edited May 30, 2007 by BigbadB

[CubColtPacer]

I'm pretty sure that Kent was hitting 3rd ahead of Bonds for a better portion of Bonds' 73 HR season.

 

Bonds had 136 starts in the 3 spot in 2001-Kent had 12. Kent had 141 starts in the 4 spot-Bonds had 11.

[BigbadB]

I'm pretty sure that Kent was hitting 3rd ahead of Bonds for a better portion of Bonds' 73 HR season.

 

Bonds had 136 starts in the 3 spot in 2001-Kent had 12. Kent had 141 starts in the 4 spot-Bonds had 11.

 

Yeah, I actually edited my post to correct myself before you responded.

 

There was a year where they did that, though. Maybe it was '02.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm pretty sure that Kent was hitting 3rd ahead of Bonds for a better portion of Bonds' 73 HR season.

 

Bonds had 136 starts in the 3 spot in 2001-Kent had 12. Kent had 141 starts in the 4 spot-Bonds had 11.

 

Yeah, I actually edited my post to correct myself before you responded.

 

There was a year where they did that, though. Maybe it was '02.

 

Yeah, they flipped the order around the middle of 02 to have Kent bat in front of Bonds, and Bonds ended up having 1 of Reggie Sanders, J.T. Snow, or Benito Santiago behind him.

[Guest]

How is a LOOGY a myth?

[cheapseats]

.254/.400/.349

 

WTF? How is this possible?

 

Its kind of the same thing that is going on with DLee and ARam, although many on this board dont believe that it exists.

 

http://bradbury.sewanee.edu/pigou_web.pdf

 

Hitters with "protection" in the lineup actually perform worse than those without "protection."

 

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/grabiner/protstudy.html

 

The players hit slightly better when *not* protected...it doesn't help to bat in front of a big-name

hitter.

[sunnydoo]

How is a LOOGY a myth?

 

Loogys are a myth because:

 

#1 cant be used on 11 man pitching staffs b/c lack of innings

#2 cant be helpful in a bullpen b/c they dont throw a lot of innings

 

and most important

 

#3 managers can pitch hit for the left handed batter with a right hander leaving the decision to take the Loogy out after 1 pitch or let him face the righty. Either way, not a good scenario as Ohman has shown all year b/c they are totally ineffective against rightys usually.

 

Now there will be those that scream and say that you should only face the guys you know that wont be pinch hit for- all that does is cut down their innings further. On most teams that would be only 1 guy and on several teams that would be no one at all.

 

Therefore in summation after factoring pi to the 13th power, Loogy=myth.

[jersey cubs fan]

How is a LOOGY a myth?

 

Loogys are a myth because:

 

#1 cant be used on 11 man pitching staffs b/c lack of innings

#2 cant be helpful in a bullpen b/c they dont throw a lot of innings

 

and most important

 

#3 managers can pitch hit for the left handed batter with a right hander leaving the decision to take the Loogy out after 1 pitch or let him face the righty. Either way, not a good scenario as Ohman has shown all year b/c they are totally ineffective against rightys usually.

 

Now there will be those that scream and say that you should only face the guys you know that wont be pinch hit for- all that does is cut down their innings further. On most teams that would be only 1 guy and on several teams that would be no one at all.

 

Therefore in summation after factoring pi to the 13th power, Loogy=myth.

 

Do you know what myth means?

[sunnydoo]

Do you know what myth means?

 

Do you?

 

A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal.

[Derwood]

Do you know what myth means?

 

Do you?

 

A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal.

 

right, so LOOGY is not a myth, since many managers do, in fact, employ them on their team. Just because they're a dumb idea doesn't mean they are made up

[sunnydoo]

The players hit slightly better when *not* protected...it doesn't help to bat in front of a big-name

hitter.

 

I have not seen that 1st study before and would have to look over it.

 

I have seen the 2nd study before but that is not what we are discussing at the moment. The 2nd study is players around a super player, what we are discussing is a super player around players. Just b/c one may have an effect on another in 1 study, doesnt translate to the same on a 2nd study.

 

But i will look at the 1st study. Always enjoy looking at people trying to quantify baseball ideas and the assumptions they make.

[sunnydoo]

right, so LOOGY is not a myth, since many managers do, in fact, employ them on their team. Just because they're a dumb idea doesn't mean they are made up

 

Ok let me try that again.

 

A popular belief (Loogy) that has become associated with an institution (baseball) or occurence (situational pitching).

 

Belief is defined as something accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

 

Here is another definition of myth as well- A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.

 

Maybe you will like that one better.

[jersey cubs fan]

Do you know what myth means?

 

Do you?

 

A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal.

 

You may have described an inefficient use of roster space. But you have not proved the notion that some pitchers are only good at getting LH hitters out, is a myth.

[cheapseats]

The players hit slightly better when *not* protected...it doesn't help to bat in front of a big-name

hitter.

 

I have seen the 2nd study before but that is not what we are discussing at the moment.

 

Your reading comprehension = not so good.

[sunnydoo]

.254/.400/.349

 

WTF? How is this possible?

 

Although its just since May 27th (10 games), here is the effect i am talking about.

 

Teams see Carlos Lee tearing up the league and leading at one point in RBIs. So they pitch to Berkman now instead of Lee. From May 27th:

 

Berkman .254/.400/.349 to .244/.382/.373

Lee .311/.341/.539 to .309/.353/.538

 

Lee's sluggo % is better than what i would have expected, but should start falling a bit more. Berkmans average should eventually pick up once he readjusts.

 

 

Also, Berkman only got 2 games for his tirade and showing up on the field during a melee once he was already tossed. Bob Watson really blew that. Mr Robinson would have given him a week to think about it.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AtuGPO2IU9v.nZiWdy4c2145nYcB?slug=ap-astros-berkmansuspended&prov=ap&type=lgns