Miller will be skipped

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

[papabear58]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

[soapy]

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

Not to mention the fact that the Cubs view him as such a liability at this point, that he's been (or is going to be) skipped twice in the first two weeks of the season, meaning more innings racked up for the other starters.

[C.C.]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

I don't see how you're comparing Miller to Howry. Howry has pitched great (or at least well) the last two years, oh, and he hasn't had any kind of major surgery and lost 8 mph off his fastball in the process.

 

Doesn't mean he still can't be effective and it doesn't mean he won't regain some of the velocity. Again, let's all relax. If Miller continues to suck and looks done, then I'm sure Prior(?) or Guzman will have their shot at the 5th man.

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

[Danny82]

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

Not to mention the fact that the Cubs view him as such a liability at this point, that he's been (or is going to be) skipped twice in the first two weeks of the season, meaning more innings racked up for the other starters.

Come on now.

 

While he technically did get skipped by Z for a day, practically speaking, this is only the first time he will miss his turn in the rotation.

[USSoccer]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

 

 

Can you prove Miller "won" the spot? It seems as if it was given and not earned.

 

Meanwhile, Guzman has:

 

Velocity

Movement

Control

 

The thing he lacks is experience. There's seriously no risk in having him start over Miller.

[USSoccer]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

[Danny82]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

 

 

Can you prove Miller "won" the spot? It seems as if it was given and not earned.

 

Please stop with that crap. Miller had the better spring numbers. Miller dominated in his last spring appearance. You may disagree with the Cubs as to proper way to use/view a pitcher's performance in spring training, but please don't act like Miller was just flat out given the job because he is a vet when there are spring training numbers to support such a decision.

[C.C.]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

 

 

Can you prove Miller "won" the spot? It seems as if it was given and not earned.

 

Meanwhile, Guzman has:

 

Velocity

Movement

Control

 

The thing he lacks is experience. There's seriously no risk in having him start over Miller.

 

Why do you think it's a given? Don't you think Lou and Hendry want to win more then anybody. Espically Hendry! If Miller had a terrible ST, I find it hard to believe that Lou would make him the 5th starter because his name is Wade Miller. That's silly...

[USSoccer]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

 

 

Can you prove Miller "won" the spot? It seems as if it was given and not earned.

 

Meanwhile, Guzman has:

 

Velocity

Movement

Control

 

The thing he lacks is experience. There's seriously no risk in having him start over Miller.

 

Why do you think it's a given? Don't you think Lou and Hendry want to win more then anybody. Espically Hendry! If Miller had a terrible ST, I find it hard to believe that Lou would make him the 5th starter because his name is Wade Miller. That's silly...

 

I think there's plenty of evidence to support the theory that Hendry was just as culpable as Dusty Baker in cultivating the veteran fetish that this team has had for practically forever. It wasn't Dusty signing veteran retreads and leaving young players to rot on a bench instead of sending them back down to AAA or whatever.

[papabear58]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

 

Speculation and opinion. I have no problem with either, but they should be identified as such.

 

Here is the definition of earning it:

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=2&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=23&baseballScope=CH2&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box4=XXXX150063chnX&box5=XXXX425768chnX&compare.x=25&compare.y=10

[Banedon]

Gosh USSoccer. I really wish you wouldn't hem and haw over this topic so much...what do you REALLY think about Wade Miller??? :geek:

[jersey cubs fan]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

 

Speculation and opinion. I have no problem with either, but they should be identified as such.

 

Here is the definition of earning it:

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=2&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=23&baseballScope=CH2&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box4=XXXX150063chnX&box5=XXXX425768chnX&compare.x=25&compare.y=10

 

spring training stats are nonsensical tools to judge players on

[Banedon]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

 

Speculation and opinion. I have no problem with either, but they should be identified as such.

 

Here is the definition of earning it:

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=2&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=23&baseballScope=CH2&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box4=XXXX150063chnX&box5=XXXX425768chnX&compare.x=25&compare.y=10

 

spring training stats are nonsensical tools to judge players on

 

Also Miller gave up more homers and walked more people than Guzman.

[papabear58]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

 

Speculation and opinion. I have no problem with either, but they should be identified as such.

 

Here is the definition of earning it:

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=2&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=23&baseballScope=CH2&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box4=XXXX150063chnX&box5=XXXX425768chnX&compare.x=25&compare.y=10

 

spring training stats are nonsensical tools to judge players on

 

Guzman's stats in the regular season are not that good either. ](*,)

[USSoccer]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

 

Speculation and opinion. I have no problem with either, but they should be identified as such.

 

Here is the definition of earning it:

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=2&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=23&baseballScope=CH2&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box4=XXXX150063chnX&box5=XXXX425768chnX&compare.x=25&compare.y=10

 

So in 1.2 more innings, Miller gave up more hits, home runs, and walks, an equal number of runs, a worse WHIP and one less earned run?

 

Yeah, he totally outpitched Angel.

[USSoccer]

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

 

And what makes you so sure that Prior or Guzman won't cost us games?

 

There's a difference between someone with no ceiling beyond replacement player costing you games, and someone taking a lump here and there with a ceiling as high as Angel's.

 

Wade Miller isn't good, and likely won't be better in the future. Angel Guzman is at worst level with Miller now, and with a few starts might be a very good starter.

 

Speculation and opinion. I have no problem with either, but they should be identified as such.

 

Here is the definition of earning it:

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=2&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=23&baseballScope=CH2&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box4=XXXX150063chnX&box5=XXXX425768chnX&compare.x=25&compare.y=10

 

spring training stats are nonsensical tools to judge players on

 

Guzman's stats in the regular season are not that good either. ](*,)

 

Nor were Miller's last season, which would be more relevant than his career stats, given that he's lost 10mph on his fastball.

[Outshined_One]

Here's the thing...

 

If you are basically guaranteed to have a bad outing every fifth time in the rotation, which would you prefer at this point?

 

A relatively young pitcher who has a nice upside, but lacks consistency and experience. He's being paid the minimum for his experience and is fine with being in the bullpen.

 

A veteran pitcher who lost his stuff due to injury and does not seem to be getting it back any time soon. He's being paid $1.5m and has flatout said he would not be in the bullpen.

 

I'm a believer in upside over experience in these kinds of situations. One way or another, you'll have some bad outings every fifth day. However, Guzman at least gets some much-needed experience as a starter and you can determine whether or not he's the real deal. With Miller, you pretty much know what you're going to get. If his stuff isn't making a comeback any time soon, there's not much of a reason to throw him out there every fifth day.

 

Edit: Can someone fix that link so that it doesn't throw the page layout off this badly? Thanks.

[Bruno7481]

if we're only going can a guy for one start, why even have him on the team in the first place?

 

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity.

 

Then you'd have had your way and he wouldn't have been on the team. Do you remember that he stated clearly that if he didn't win the fifth starters spot that he didn't want to be here?

 

Hendry also said that it would be "unfair" to Miller if he didn't start and would seek to trade or release him. The long relief spot is not an option for Miller.

 

I could care less what Wade Miller wants, or what he feels is unfair. What's unfair is losing winnable games because your starting pitcher can't crack 90mph and throws the ball straight down the middle.

 

.

 

Players would be lining up to play in your organization.

 

:?

[davearm]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

 

 

Can you prove Miller "won" the spot? It seems as if it was given and not earned.

 

Meanwhile, Guzman has:

 

Velocity

Movement

Control

 

The thing he lacks is experience. There's seriously no risk in having him start over Miller.

The bottom line is that Lou and co. threw the 5th starter slot wide open to competition this spring, and invited to compete were Guzman, Cotts, Miller, and Prior.

 

At the conclusion of that 6-8 week process, Miller was deemed the "winner", based on the coaching staff's perception that Miller was pitching better than the other three, and consequently was the guy that gave the team the best chance to win.

 

Guzman had the chance to prove that he's that guy (as you're assuring us here that he is), but the fact is that he didn't do so when given the opportunity (and by all indications, Lou really likes the kid and wanted to see him step up and grab the job).

 

Now ultimately Miller may pitch his way out of that 5th starter job, or one of the other guys might pitch their way into it, but we have certainly not reached that point yet... not after only one start from Miller, two forgettable relief appearances from Guzman, and nothing from Prior.

 

Making a change now would reek of panic, and would cast doubt on the conviction of the coaching staff and the confidence they have in their decisionmaking process.

[USSoccer]

if we're only going can a guy for one start, why even have him on the team in the first place?

 

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity.

 

Then you'd have had your way and he wouldn't have been on the team. Do you remember that he stated clearly that if he didn't win the fifth starters spot that he didn't want to be here?

 

Hendry also said that it would be "unfair" to Miller if he didn't start and would seek to trade or release him. The long relief spot is not an option for Miller.

 

I could care less what Wade Miller wants, or what he feels is unfair. What's unfair is losing winnable games because your starting pitcher can't crack 90mph and throws the ball straight down the middle.

 

.

 

Players would be lining up to play in your organization.

 

:?

 

You're assuming the other 24 guys on the roster are fine with a reclamation project who got paid to rehab dictating his role on the team. I'm guessing that's not the case.

[papabear58]

Here's the thing...

 

If you are basically guaranteed to have a bad outing every fifth time in the rotation, which would you prefer at this point?

 

A relatively young pitcher who has a nice upside, but lacks consistency and experience. He's being paid the minimum for his experience and is fine with being in the bullpen.

 

A veteran pitcher who lost his stuff due to injury and does not seem to be getting it back any time soon. He's being paid $1.5m and has flatout said he would not be in the bullpen.

 

I'm a believer in upside over experience in these kinds of situations. One way or another, you'll have some bad outings every fifth day. However, Guzman at least gets some much-needed experience as a starter and you can determine whether or not he's the real deal. With Miller, you pretty much know what you're going to get. If his stuff isn't making a comeback any time soon, there's not much of a reason to throw him out there every fifth day.

 

Edit: Can someone fix that link so that it doesn't throw the page layout off this badly? Thanks.

 

That made sense, however it is my opinion that if the collective feeling is that Miller is not going to get better, then it's time to package him to a team who needs reclamation projects, low budget teams who are looking for lightning in a bottle, with a decent but not outstanding prospect and try to get a slightly overpaid decent MLB known commodity for him. That's just my opinion, but I'll stand by it.

[Magnetic Curses]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

how is he going to earn it if there's no open spot in the rotation?

 

small sample size for guzman aside, miller is a pitcher on the downside of his career without any effective pitches. lou, despite professing his love for the 5-man roattion recently, is skipping miller at every opportunity. what does that say about his faith in the man's ability to get people out?

 

miller's just not good unless his fastball suddenly makes a reappearance. why not try a guy who has had past success at the minor league level, still has effective pitches, and will probably only improve as oppsed to a crafty veteran that isn't crafty?

[papabear58]

Miller is lacking:

 

- velocity

- movement

- control

 

He is not an effective major league pitcher at this very moment.

 

Guzman is lacking

 

- consistancy

- translation of talent

- ability to get major league hitters out

 

Both can improve, but Miller won the spot and should be given his chance. There is no gaurantee that Guzman will do better or win games.

 

 

Can you prove Miller "won" the spot? It seems as if it was given and not earned.

 

Meanwhile, Guzman has:

 

Velocity

Movement

Control

 

The thing he lacks is experience. There's seriously no risk in having him start over Miller.

The bottom line is that Lou and co. threw the 5th starter slot wide open to competition this spring, and invited to compete were Guzman, Cotts, Miller, and Prior.

 

At the conclusion of that 6-8 week process, Miller was deemed the "winner", based on the coaching staff's perception that Miller was pitching better than the other three, and consequently was the guy that gave the team the best chance to win.

 

Guzman had the chance to prove that he's that guy (as you're assuring us here that he is), but the fact is that he didn't do so when given the opportunity (and by all indications, Lou really likes the kid and wanted to see him step up and grab the job).

 

Now ultimately Miller may pitch his way out of that 5th starter job, or one of the other guys might pitch their way into it, but we have certainly not reached that point yet... not after only one start from Miller, two forgettable relief appearances from Guzman, and nothing from Prior.

 

Making a change now would reek of panic, and would cast doubt on the conviction of the coaching staff and the confidence they have in their decisionmaking process.

 

Thank you for stating it well.

[USSoccer]

 

Making a change now would reek of panic, and would cast doubt on the conviction of the coaching staff and the confidence they have in their decisionmaking process.

 

So they should stick to a bad decision because they don't have the guts to admit a mistake sooner rather than later?