Murton getting benched again for lesser player

[abuck1220]

 

Actually you are wrong here.....Murton is not expected to be a starting OF for the future from what I know. The two outfielders they're expecting in the future are Pie and Colvin. Once Pie comes up, he will be the CF and Soriano will move to LF. Colvin will then go to RF. This is the reason for the limited play time of Murton.

 

so they're not playing murton in lf in 2007 because colvin is going to be playing rf in 2011?

 

got it.

[NCCubFan]

PLAYING FLOYD WILL NOT HELP THE CUBS WIN A WORLD SERIES. Playing Matt Murton might.

 

Wow. So the Cubs World Series hopes rest on the who wins the classic good/evil battle between Cliff Floyd and Matt Murton.

 

Alright then! :lol:

Yep; Murton is Harry Potter and Floyd is He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. :lol:

[RegulusBlue]

The Cubs' future is analogous to the handling of Murton, as previously stated by others. Mishandling this guy who happens to be a cheap, talented answer to the OBP problem this team has had for years and years is the story of this god-forsaken franchise. That's why he is so popular. We can't get on base a lick, but then a AA prospect comes out of nowhere and can't be kept off the bases. Add to that distinctive red hair, and a cult hero is born.

 

It takes a particularly narrow worldview to not realize that getting on base is the key to scoring runs, but Hendry, Baker, and apparently Lou have all managed this herculean feat. Instead we will reap what we sowed in the signing of another aging veteran on the downside of a once decent career. For christ's sake, he can hardly run in the outfield.

 

This operation is giving us a window into their minds when they bench a player at least as good as the injured guy in his spot after claiming that he was the starter all offseason. This disregard for team needs is the story of why we will not win with our current setup of the last 100 years. Thank god management is about out the door here.

 

Murton will not win us any WS alone, but the way the Cubs deal with this player and future young guys will win or lose us one. What if we add a ready Pie to the OF and are minus Floyd and Jones in two years? Add Soriano and Eric Patterson playing well to Lee and Aram to that, and that projects as a very good squad suddenly. Would you rather have an aging Floyd clone out there, or a well groomed above average LF (certainly feasible considering his second half OPS was .900 last year)? Can we even count on the Cubs to develop Pie and Patterson, or will we sign a few dudes to start over them as they try to develop?

 

That's the Murton difference.

 

We will continue to flounder forever if we don't play Murton metaphorically. We will continue to be less than we could be this year by as many as 15-25 runs on the year if we don't play Murton immediately.

 

My prediction is that Murton's playing time will directly result in missing or making the playoffs. 50-65 points of OBP can do that.

[Soul]

PLAYING FLOYD WILL NOT HELP THE CUBS WIN A WORLD SERIES. Playing Matt Murton might.

 

Wow. So the Cubs World Series hopes rest on the who wins the classic good/evil battle between Cliff Floyd and Matt Murton.

 

Alright then! :lol:

 

No, but a 25 year-old player is likely still going to improve. A 34 year-old is very likely to regress.

 

       AVG     OBP     SLG
Floyd  0.261	0.346	0.465
Murton 0.302	0.368	0.456

 

These are three year averages for Murton and Floyd (only MLB AB's). Who would you rather have playing?

 

I'd rather have both guys playing, each in the appropriate situations.

 

Murton's likely to improve, and he's also likely to be a Cub for a while. He'll get plenty of ABs, plenty of chances to improve this year, plenty of chances to contribute.

 

I'd play Murton almost every day. He has upside whereas Floyd does not. Moreover, since Murton is likely to be a Cub for a long time, it would behoove me to develop him as quickly as possible. Otherwise, we might bring in another veteran over him. Since, you know, he doesn't have experience.

 

Since I'd play Murton almost all the time, when would you play him?

 

And what is the cost to the franchise since Murton's development will be stunted. And, how many outs do you sacrifice with Floyd's lesser OBP?

 

Murton has more upside than Floyd: agreed. Floyd has no more upside, in fact. Murton has some.

 

Murton should play to improve: agreed.

 

Notion that Murton must play almost every day this year or his growth will be stunted: disagree.

 

Idea that players who don't play every day in their 2nd full years as a pro will, by definition, fade away: disagree.

 

Assumption being presented in this thread that what is happening in April with Murton will necessarily continue all year: disagree.

[TruffleShuffle]

We can't get on base a lick, but then a AA prospect comes out of nowhere and can't be kept off the bases.

 

...

 

50-65 points of OBP can do that.

 

exaggerating a bit, aren't we?

[CubColtPacer]

As expected. A platoon with Murton and Floyd. Thanks Hendry. Much more beneficial to the team would be a platoon with Jones. But, hey, had to go and sign a 34 year old Cliff Floyd. It's not like you're a good GM who understands that Jones can't hit lefties to save his life or anything.

 

And, Lou, "too right-handed"? Sounds like an excuse to play the veteran. Just like you did in TB. Ah, Cubs baseball, lifetimes of futility in just one franchise.

 

Yeah, this is another complaint I have. If the org. was bound and determined to turn Matt Murton into a platoon player then they already had the guy who is screaming to be his platoon partner: Jacque Jones. If they really wanted to sign Floyd and platoon him then it's not hard to find somebody who can play LF and hit passably vs. LHP. How about Ryan Theriot? Or maybe bring back some cheap vet like Michael Restovich.

 

Wait a second. So you are suggesting that Murton platoons with Jacque in right, and then Floyd platoons with Theriot in left. Correct? I know that's not your ideal, but that's your suggestion to at least make it better.

 

My question-how is that any different than what they are doing now-so far (1 game) Jacque has platooned with Theriot in right, and Murton is somewhat platooning with Floyd in left but he's getting more at-bats against right-handers than if he was platooning with Jacque. Isn't that the better solution if you're not going to have any of them playing everyday?

[CubColtPacer]

Oh, and in case people were wondering, I'd move Soriano back to 2B -- replacing DeRosa. I'd then play Jones, Floyd and Murton in the OF.

 

There's no reason to think absolutely linearly about things. A manager should try and play his best 8 field players. Soriano gives you the flexibility to get Murton, Floyd AND Jones in the lineup.

 

So-for the maybe 75-100 points of OPS extra you would get by doing that, you would make 2 more defensive black holes than the team already possesses (right field and second base) along with making your free agent who just signed for 8 years very, very angry. Would it really be worth it?

[NewUserName]

PLAYING FLOYD WILL NOT HELP THE CUBS WIN A WORLD SERIES. Playing Matt Murton might.

 

Wow. So the Cubs World Series hopes rest on the who wins the classic good/evil battle between Cliff Floyd and Matt Murton.

 

Alright then! :lol:

 

 

Its about how the team is run. Like I said in my whole post the Cubs will always bring in a past prime veteran as "Insurance" for young players. Managers play who is best so young players sit. Murton has earned his chance to play. He may develop into a really good player. The Cubs will not win the WS in the 2 years that Floyd is here. Murton should play. Really it is just common sense. Would you invest money in a stock that will not increase value and will probably plunge in the next couple of years. Or would you invest money in a stock that is almost as valuable, may increase in value and has a lot more longterm potential.

 

I have said if the Cubs were a legitimate WS contender this year, I would be for Murton and Floyd platoon. Since they are not playing Floyd makes no sense. If the Cubs surprise me and become a WS contender this year I will be the first to come in here and say I am wrong.

[CubColtPacer]

PLAYING FLOYD WILL NOT HELP THE CUBS WIN A WORLD SERIES. Playing Matt Murton might.

 

Wow. So the Cubs World Series hopes rest on the who wins the classic good/evil battle between Cliff Floyd and Matt Murton.

 

Alright then! :lol:

 

 

I have said if the Cubs were a legitimate WS contender this year, I would be for Murton and Floyd platoon. Since they are not playing Floyd makes no sense. If the Cubs surprise me and become a WS contender this year I will be the first to come in here and say I am wrong.

 

This makes sense. If you believe they have no chance to win it all then it make sense to go with the better long-term option. The Cubs obviously do believe they have a WS contender here-their spending spree and their comments since then seem to back that up. Only time will tell which opinion is closer to correct.

[Sammy Sofa]

I understand Lou wanting Floyd in there with Aramis being out the last 2 games...so why not shift Soriano temporarily back to 2nd, Jacque over to CF and then plug Murton or Floyd into RF and the other in LF? The OF defense might be scary, but the offensive upside is infinitely better than having to have Izturius and Cedeno both batting. Edited April 15, 2007 by Sammy Sofa

[RynoRules]

I understand Lou wanting Floyd in there with Aramis being out the last 2 games...so why not shift Soriano temporarily back to 2nd, Jacque over to CF and then plug Murton or Floyd into RF and the other in LF? The OF defense might be scary, but the offensive upside is ifinitely better than having to have Izturius and Cedeno both batting.

 

That makes a lot more sense than having Ronny and Cesar in the same lineup. If Lou has a secondary fault here its that he is a bit too concerned about defense and is handicaping the lineup as such.

[NomarSammy]

Listen, i like Murton too, but Lou job is to try and win TODAY. That being said, he should not consider who is what in the future, blah blah, blah--try and win today and I think over the last few days he feels that Floyd gives us a better chance to win and to be honest I think Floyd does. Give it some time before everyone goes nuts

[CubColtPacer]

I understand Lou wanting Floyd in there with Aramis being out the last 2 games...so why not shift Soriano temporarily back to 2nd, Jacque over to CF and then plug Murton or Floyd into RF and the other in LF? The OF defense might be scary, but the offensive upside is infinitely better than having to have Izturius and Cedeno both batting.

 

My guess is that it all stems from the promise they made to Soriano when he signed to have him be an OF only. Who knows, they may have even written it into his contract.

[RynoRules]

Listen, i like Murton too, but Lou job is to try and win TODAY. That being said, he should not consider who is what in the future, blah blah, blah--try and win today and I think over the last few days he feels that Floyd gives us a better chance to win and to be honest I think Floyd does. Give it some time before everyone goes nuts

 

I still say Murt should start, but I agree with your last sentence.

[CubColtPacer]

If Floyd starts today (and there's a pretty decent chance that he does) remember that Murton will get some starts this week.

 

Monday-not sure who will start

Tuesday-Murton will probably start

Wednesday-Murton will start

Thursday-Murton has a pretty good chance to start

No pitchers currently known after that.

 

The matchups for Floyd are not as favorable this week as they were last week. The team is facing some pitchers that Floyd has not done as well against, along with the left-hander on Wednesday (oddly enough Floyd has done better against the left-hander than either right-hander on Tuesday or Thursday). Murton will likely the majority of starts this next week, even if Floyd starts today and tomorrow (and I bet Murton starts one of those 2 games).

[CUBZ99]

The Cubs' future is analogous to the handling of Murton, as previously stated by others. Mishandling this guy who happens to be a cheap, talented answer to the OBP problem this team has had for years and years is the story of this god-forsaken franchise. That's why he is so popular. We can't get on base a lick, but then a AA prospect comes out of nowhere and can't be kept off the bases. Add to that distinctive red hair, and a cult hero is born.

 

It takes a particularly narrow worldview to not realize that getting on base is the key to scoring runs, but Hendry, Baker, and apparently Lou have all managed this herculean feat. Instead we will reap what we sowed in the signing of another aging veteran on the downside of a once decent career. For christ's sake, he can hardly run in the outfield.

 

This operation is giving us a window into their minds when they bench a player at least as good as the injured guy in his spot after claiming that he was the starter all offseason. This disregard for team needs is the story of why we will not win with our current setup of the last 100 years. Thank god management is about out the door here.

 

Murton will not win us any WS alone, but the way the Cubs deal with this player and future young guys will win or lose us one. What if we add a ready Pie to the OF and are minus Floyd and Jones in two years? Add Soriano and Eric Patterson playing well to Lee and Aram to that, and that projects as a very good squad suddenly. Would you rather have an aging Floyd clone out there, or a well groomed above average LF (certainly feasible considering his second half OPS was .900 last year)? Can we even count on the Cubs to develop Pie and Patterson, or will we sign a few dudes to start over them as they try to develop?

 

That's the Murton difference.

 

We will continue to flounder forever if we don't play Murton metaphorically. We will continue to be less than we could be this year by as many as 15-25 runs on the year if we don't play Murton immediately.

 

My prediction is that Murton's playing time will directly result in missing or making the playoffs. 50-65 points of OBP can do that.

 

First of all, the difference between Floyd and Murton career OBP wise is not 50-60 pts. Its only 10 points . And the difference between their career power numbers is much greater. Fair or not, until Murton proves otherwise he will be considered a light hitting LF.

 

Second, to say the Cubs never gives prospects a chance or that how they treat Murton is a barometer of future success is ridiculous.

 

In the past years many young players have had chances to make the Cubs or other teams they have been traded to and by in large just never panned out.

[RegulusBlue]

Listen, i like Murton too, but Lou job is to try and win TODAY. That being said, he should not consider who is what in the future, blah blah, blah--try and win today and I think over the last few days he feels that Floyd gives us a better chance to win and to be honest I think Floyd does. Give it some time before everyone goes nuts

 

Murton is a better player RIGHT NOW. Two years ago? You gotta give it to Cliff, but his day is past.

 

The better chance to win now is with Murton batting 2nd in the lineup and starting 75% of games in LF and spelling Jones one day a week in RF.

[TruffleShuffle]

Listen, i like Murton too, but Lou job is to try and win TODAY. That being said, he should not consider who is what in the future, blah blah, blah--try and win today and I think over the last few days he feels that Floyd gives us a better chance to win and to be honest I think Floyd does. Give it some time before everyone goes nuts

 

Murton is a better player RIGHT NOW. Two years ago? You gotta give it to Cliff, but his day is past.

 

The better chance to win now is with Murton batting 2nd in the lineup and starting 75% of games in LF and spelling Jones one day a week in RF.

 

Cliff Floyd has had one lousy year - last year - and he was hurt for most of that time. The difference between Floyd and Murton in terms of production is pretty small, and I suspect that your position as "Archbishop of the Church of Murton" is making it a little hard for you to view this topic objectively.

[NewUserName]

PLAYING FLOYD WILL NOT HELP THE CUBS WIN A WORLD SERIES. Playing Matt Murton might.

 

Wow. So the Cubs World Series hopes rest on the who wins the classic good/evil battle between Cliff Floyd and Matt Murton.

 

Alright then! :lol:

 

 

I have said if the Cubs were a legitimate WS contender this year, I would be for Murton and Floyd platoon. Since they are not playing Floyd makes no sense. If the Cubs surprise me and become a WS contender this year I will be the first to come in here and say I am wrong.

 

This makes sense. If you believe they have no chance to win it all then it make sense to go with the better long-term option. The Cubs obviously do believe they have a WS contender here-their spending spree and their comments since then seem to back that up. Only time will tell which opinion is closer to correct.

 

The problem of course is what is a WS contender. I would say that winning the weak central does not make the Cubs a WS contender. I am guessing this is what really is debatable?

[RynoRules]

Everyone who gets into the playoffs is a WS contender b/c the playoffs are a lucky crapshoot. Ex. A is the defending champs.

[CubColtPacer]

PLAYING FLOYD WILL NOT HELP THE CUBS WIN A WORLD SERIES. Playing Matt Murton might.

 

Wow. So the Cubs World Series hopes rest on the who wins the classic good/evil battle between Cliff Floyd and Matt Murton.

 

Alright then! :lol:

 

 

I have said if the Cubs were a legitimate WS contender this year, I would be for Murton and Floyd platoon. Since they are not playing Floyd makes no sense. If the Cubs surprise me and become a WS contender this year I will be the first to come in here and say I am wrong.

 

This makes sense. If you believe they have no chance to win it all then it make sense to go with the better long-term option. The Cubs obviously do believe they have a WS contender here-their spending spree and their comments since then seem to back that up. Only time will tell which opinion is closer to correct.

 

The problem of course is what is a WS contender. I would say that winning the weak central does not make the Cubs a WS contender. I am guessing this is what really is debatable?

 

I don't know-if they did win the Central, I see no reason why the Cubs would not be a WS contender. Their biggest worry right now is depth in the starting pitching. Getting into the playoffs and going with a rotation of Z, Hill, and Lilly-I'd be hard pressed to find another potential playoff team with a playoff rotation like that in the National League. The offense would also probably be the 2nd best in the playoffs behind the Mets (not saying they'll be 2nd best overall in the NL, but can't see another playoff team right now besides the Mets that is likely to have a better one), and the bullpen and bench are not detriments. So if they did win the Central, I'd see no reason why they would be any less of a favorite to win the NL as any other team out there.

Once they reached the WS, they'd be facing a better team then them, but anything can happen in a series like that. So I'd say if they reached the playoffs they should be considered a WS contender.

[ltb]

Cliff Floyd has had one lousy year - last year - and he was hurt for most of that time. The difference between Floyd and Murton in terms of production is pretty small, and I suspect that your position as "Archbishop of the Church of Murton" is making it a little hard for you to view this topic objectively.

 

yes, his "one lousy year" is also the most recent. as a player ages, his most recent season is a pretty significant factor in projecting his future. cliff floyd today is not the same player he was in 2005. he's injury prone and on the decline, which leaves his upside at about the level of production murton can be expected to have. the problem with playing floyd is that murton has the potential to produce more than that - floyd doesn't.

 

just for reference, murton's 50th percentile PECOTA projects a WARP of about 3.6. floyd? 2.8.

 

if floyd wasn't so old, i could understand a "down year." at age 34? nope.

[Mephistopheles]

SO FLOYDS JOB IS ON THE LINE DURING THIS AT BAT AGAINST WEATHERS

[abuck1220]

Murton = 1 AB with game on the line and he swings at all 3 pitches and pops out

 

Floyd = 2-4, big single in 9th

 

I'm sticking with Cliff until Matt proves me otherwise...

 

well, that's twice floyd's made the third out "with the game on the line." changed your mind yet?

[ltb]

Murton = 1 AB with game on the line and he swings at all 3 pitches and pops out

 

Floyd = 2-4, big single in 9th

 

I'm sticking with Cliff until Matt proves me otherwise...

 

well, that's twice floyd's made the third out "with the game on the line." changed your mind yet?

 

but he's CLUTCH dude!!!!!!!!!

 

...floyd sucks