Prior visits Yocum and Andrews; THT on Prior's Mechanics

[Exile on Waveland]

Pitching is a completely natural arm motion. No injury could possibly come from it. In fact, flinging your arm forward to throw a baseball over 90 miles an hour 100 times in less than three hours is actually good for arms. Torque is healthy. Doing that 30+ times a year is downright therapeutic. It's what makes men out of boys. Or, in Mark Prior's case, men out of little soft girly-men.

 

We should actually thank Dusty for this so-called "abuse", otherwise we might be stuck with soft pitchers and would have no idea who was tough and who wasn't. Back in 1963 every pitcher threw 300 pitches and started 162 games. They were real men and never got hurt. Mark Prior is hurt because he's soft, Dusty merely was trying to toughen all our pitchers up, or, better yet, weed out the sissies. Bravo Dusty, bravo.

[Wheelimus]

Pitching is a completely natural arm motion. No injury could possibly come from it. In fact, flinging your arm forward to throw a baseball over 90 miles an hour 100 times in less than three hours is actually good for arms. Torque is healthy. Doing that 30+ times a year is downright therapeutic. It's what makes men out of boys. Or, in Mark Prior's case, men out of little soft girly-men.

 

We should actually thank Dusty for this so-called "abuse", otherwise we might be stuck with soft pitchers and would have no idea who was tough and who wasn't. Back in 1963 every pitcher threw 300 pitches and started 162 games. They were real men and never got hurt. Mark Prior is hurt because he's soft, Dusty merely was trying to toughen all our pitchers up, or, better yet, weed out the sissies. Bravo Dusty, bravo.

 

Ha, from the same town as me and sarcastic as hell. We'd get along well! :lol:

[radarluv1]

anytime i'm in too good a mood and need to be gloomed down, i remember this game:

 

FLA N 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 - 3 9 1

CHI N 2 3 3 0 3 1 0 0 x - 12 16 1

 

now, at what point did the promisng young starting pitcher get taken out of this game? i'll give you a hint, it was well after when it was 11-0. i have no idea if this affected his next start, since i've went through alot of alcohol to erase that one from my memory.

[illiniguy]

Our organization is a joke. You really think this would have happened if these guys had been Braves? We have to rush and push everything. No one in their right mind would have allowed for the type of abuse Prior received as a 22 year old. Thank Dusty, thanks Jim. It is kind of like the equivalent of getting a brand new Ferrari and driving it as hard as you can while never changing the oil, then acting suprised when it breaks down, followed by getting mad at it for not being the same after it has happened.

 

Oh and the best part we did it(are doing it) all over again with Z.

 

Well, thank god there's going to be a new owner in place after this year, and hopefully they clean house and bring in people who actually know how to run a successful baseball team.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I really am thrilled that will probably happen.

[abuck1220]

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches.

 

Every pitcher in the 1960s?

 

if you think every pitcher in the 1960's threw as hard with as much torque on their arms as Wood and Prior you are truly fooling yourself

theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries.

 

lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

 

right, but they don't put the same effort into the 120th pitch in the eighth inning of a game as they do in their bullpen season. additionally, they're much more fatigued when they are making that 120th pitch, so their mechanics are more likely to slip.

[Soul]

There's usually more than 1 factor that goes into whether a pitcher pulls up with an injury. That shouldn't mean we ignore pitcher abuse points. Just because some pitchers can hack it shouldn't mean that we don't look at how many pitches a guy throws and factor it in.

 

If a deadly disease rolls around and starts killing off people, there will always be those few who somehow escape unscathed. That certainly doesn't mean the disease isn't a problem.

[rynefan]

The abuse starts long before the Majors. We had three kids seriously injure their arm within one month... ages 13/14... kids that were "top" players (in our youth league, a very competitive one). One blew out his arm on the mound, one blew it out after bouts of achiness, throwing from right, and one blew it out throwing from home to second. Some youth leagues push and push and push early on, then it continues in h.s. and college. The end result can be in the Majors. It's sick.

[Mephistopheles]

theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries.

 

lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

 

But probably something like 95% of the most fatigued and stressful motions.

 

Pretending that the 120th pitch is at all equal to the 1st is silly.

thats probably not true when you look workout sessions. just go dig back through the 1960s stuff. You get stories of guys throwing 150 pitches consistently. Let's not be stupid, these guys could throw in the low 90s with good power curves and other things. Whatever difference there is now is minimal. Like i said there's little, if any, evidence to backup the claim that high pitch counts cause injuries.

 

The actual motion itself is what's most important. If you have a problem with your throwing motion, like Prior does, every single throw you make hurts you. Regardless if its on the field or in the bullpen. When you look at that, the impact of 10-20 additional pitches becomes very small again.

 

BR has pitch counts from 1988 on for Clemens (his age 25 season)

 

1988: He threw 150+ pitches four times. He threw 140+ another three times. He threw 130+ six more times.

1989: He thew 130+ 12 times, including 2 150+ games.

 

Over the course of those two seasons he had 25 games with 130 or more pitches. He's been fine since. After 1990 pitch counts became more visible and the media started to scream about them so his PC slowly declined with time but he still went 130+ quite often. Let's look at Orel Hershiser!

 

1988: He topped 130 pitches once.

1989: He topped 130 pitches five times.

 

Guess who missed most of the 1990 season with shoulder surgery? Not the guy who had the higher pitch counts.

 

Let's look at Nolan Ryans 1989 season. I would assume that more pitches on a 42 year old arm would be more damaging than on a 23 year old arm, but thats me.

 

160-169: 1

150-159: 1

140-149: 5

130-139: 9

120-129: 5

110-119: 5

100-109: 4

090-099: 1 (99)

Unknown: 1

 

He was fine. 1990 and 1991 were much of the same. He threw even more pitches when he was younger. Theres NO doubt in my mind that the arms in the 60s, 70s and 80s had more pitches than todays and as much torque. Arguing otherwise is stupid.

[YearofDaCubs]

Our organization is a joke. You really think this would have happened if these guys had been Braves? We have to rush and push everything. No one in their right mind would have allowed for the type of abuse Prior received as a 22 year old. Thank Dusty, thanks Jim. It is kind of like the equivalent of getting a brand new Ferrari and driving it as hard as you can while never changing the oil, then acting suprised when it breaks down, followed by getting mad at it for not being the same after it has happened.

 

Oh and the best part we did it(are doing it) all over again with Z.

 

Well, thank god there's going to be a new owner in place after this year, and hopefully they clean house and bring in people who actually know how to run a successful baseball team.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I really am thrilled that will probably happen.

Yeah, but who knows if the owner will be good or bad. Imagine another Wirtz.

[jersey cubs fan]

your examples are pathetically desperate attempts to justify a head in the sand approach to this story.

 

Anybody who uses Clemens and Ryan as examples to dispute the notion that fatigued pitching can be harmful is missing the point. The fact that there are so very few Clemens/Ryan types, and so many more Wood/Prior types should be ample evidence to at least accept the fact that it's likely the abuse was a problem.

[abuck1220]

theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries.

 

lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

 

But probably something like 95% of the most fatigued and stressful motions.

 

Pretending that the 120th pitch is at all equal to the 1st is silly.

thats probably not true when you look workout sessions. just go dig back through the 1960s stuff. You get stories of guys throwing 150 pitches consistently. Let's not be stupid, these guys could throw in the low 90s with good power curves and other things. Whatever difference there is now is minimal. Like i said there's little, if any, evidence to backup the claim that high pitch counts cause injuries.

 

The actual motion itself is what's most important. If you have a problem with your throwing motion, like Prior does, every single throw you make hurts you. Regardless if its on the field or in the bullpen. When you look at that, the impact of 10-20 additional pitches becomes very small again.

 

BR has pitch counts from 1988 on for Clemens (his age 25 season)

 

1988: He threw 150+ pitches four times. He threw 140+ another three times. He threw 130+ six more times.

1989: He thew 130+ 12 times, including 2 150+ games.

 

Over the course of those two seasons he had 25 games with 130 or more pitches. He's been fine since. After 1990 pitch counts became more visible and the media started to scream about them so his PC slowly declined with time but he still went 130+ quite often. Let's look at Orel Hershiser!

 

1988: He topped 130 pitches once.

1989: He topped 130 pitches five times.

 

Guess who missed most of the 1990 season with shoulder surgery? Not the guy who had the higher pitch counts.

 

Let's look at Nolan Ryans 1989 season. I would assume that more pitches on a 42 year old arm would be more damaging than on a 23 year old arm, but thats me.

 

160-169: 1

150-159: 1

140-149: 5

130-139: 9

120-129: 5

110-119: 5

100-109: 4

090-099: 1 (99)

Unknown: 1

 

He was fine. 1990 and 1991 were much of the same. He threw even more pitches when he was younger. Theres NO doubt in my mind that the arms in the 60s, 70s and 80s had more pitches than todays and as much torque. Arguing otherwise is stupid.

 

that's just a couple guys though.

 

i can just as easily say here are two guys (wood and prior) who were effected by high pitch counts.

[illiniguy]

Our organization is a joke. You really think this would have happened if these guys had been Braves? We have to rush and push everything. No one in their right mind would have allowed for the type of abuse Prior received as a 22 year old. Thank Dusty, thanks Jim. It is kind of like the equivalent of getting a brand new Ferrari and driving it as hard as you can while never changing the oil, then acting suprised when it breaks down, followed by getting mad at it for not being the same after it has happened.

 

Oh and the best part we did it(are doing it) all over again with Z.

 

Well, thank god there's going to be a new owner in place after this year, and hopefully they clean house and bring in people who actually know how to run a successful baseball team.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I really am thrilled that will probably happen.

Yeah, but who knows if the owner will be good or bad. Imagine another Wirtz.

Yeah but I am an optimist. Or a sucker.

[E.J.]

Our organization is a joke. You really think this would have happened if these guys had been Braves? We have to rush and push everything. No one in their right mind would have allowed for the type of abuse Prior received as a 22 year old. Thank Dusty, thanks Jim. It is kind of like the equivalent of getting a brand new Ferrari and driving it as hard as you can while never changing the oil, then acting suprised when it breaks down, followed by getting mad at it for not being the same after it has happened.

 

Oh and the best part we did it(are doing it) all over again with Z.

 

Well, thank god there's going to be a new owner in place after this year, and hopefully they clean house and bring in people who actually know how to run a successful baseball team.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I really am thrilled that will probably happen.

 

Not sarcastic at all. I'm looking forward to the new owner. I'm tired of watching this organization do the same crap over and over again.

[Mephistopheles]

and prior and wood are "just a couple guys". when you look compare the high PC guys to the low PC guys, they get hurt at a pretty close rate. Even step back from looking at 100 to 120 pitches. Look at relievers to starters. Relievers throw what, maybe 60-70 pitches a week with even more rest than the starters. Yet they have TJ, shoulder and other problems just as often as starters.

 

Im not saying PCs have no impact, Im just saying it's very little compared to other problems, like Prior's throwing motion. That was what probably hurt him, not the PCs.

[Sammy Sofa]

http://dugout.progressiveboink.com/archive/nick126.htm

[hitamprun]

BP's annual book said that Prior's injury was the same one Wood had in 2005.

 

Prior did not have the same injury as Wood, he was diagnosed with a loose shoulder, which is quite common among pitchers.

 

You say he would take the surgery route, surgery for what ailment exactly?

 

For the same injury that Wood had in 2005. You disagree with BP's assessment, fine. But respond to the whole post.

 

I believe I did. Prior never had the same diagnosis as Wood, and surgery was never an option that came from several different opinions. They have never found anything (to date) that required surgery, and this has been confirmed over and over again.

[hitamprun]

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches.

 

Every pitcher in the 1960s?

 

if you think every pitcher in the 1960's threw as hard with as much torque on their arms as Wood and Prior you are truly fooling yourself

theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries.

 

lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

 

30-40 years ago, your top 2-3 starters regularly threw 300+ innings on 3 days rest and usually completed 20+ games. How many pitches do you think strike out pitchers like Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Sandy Koufax threw with 20+ complete games?

 

Pitch count is something to look at, but it is entirely overblown.

 

I don't know if anyone has every heard Fergie Jenkins talk about pitch counts, how often he threw etc., but it is very enlightning and was typical in his day.

[pete the dog]

The certainty with which people ascribe Prior's and Wood's problems to over-use is absurd.

 

I'm no fan of Dusty's, and it's possible that over-use had something to do with their problems, but I'm very skeptical.

 

The right way to do this would be to go back and look over the years at the relationship across all pitchers between innings pitched and different injuries in the following year(s).

 

I'd be willing to bet a fair chunk of money that innings pitched has a very small statistical effect on the likelihood of career-threatening injuries in the subsequent 1-3 years.

 

People just can't seem to get comfortable with the idea that sometimes stuff just happens. Most likely we just had the bad luck of having two of our top prospects be injury-prone for reasons of genetics, mechanics, whatever.

 

It's fun to speculate about the role of over-use, and it's even more fun to blame Dusty. But the certainty and self-righteousness of the "over-use" believers is just hard to fathom.

 

Anyone have any actual data on the health effects beyond this sample of 2?

[CubinNY]

Anyone have any actual data on the health effects beyond this sample of 2?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brogler01.shtml (Brogleio) 60s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml (Kaufax) 60s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fidryma01.shtml (Fidrych) 70s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hamptmi01.shtml (Hammpton)90s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millewa04.shtml (Miller) 90s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/martira02.shtml (Martinez) 90s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boydoi01.shtml (Boyd) 90s

 

That's all I could come up with in a spare five minutes

[badger1679666666]

It was awesome to see the usual idiot squad posting in the 5 pages after this broke. I'm glad I just skipped to the end.

[Mephistopheles]

fidrych had the same backside arm [expletive] thing that prior has. a couple other of those pitchers couldnt have tj because it wasnt around and clearly tj isnt PC related because look how many rps and minor league pitchers get it.

 

but you can flip it around and look at all the healthy pitchers in the same decade...so you didnt show anything

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

It was awesome to see the usual idiot squad posting in the 5 pages after this broke. I'm glad I just skipped to the end.

 

How is this anything other than a personal attack?

[badger1679666666]

It was awesome to see the usual idiot squad posting in the 5 pages after this broke. I'm glad I just skipped to the end.

 

How is this anything other than a personal attack?

 

Because I'm not specifying anything and no one knows who I'm referring to?

[Mephistopheles]

i know youre talking to me. and i dont think its cool

[pete the dog]

Anyone have any actual data on the health effects beyond this sample of 2?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brogler01.shtml (Brogleio) 60s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml (Kaufax) 60s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fidryma01.shtml (Fidrych) 70s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hamptmi01.shtml (Hammpton)90s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millewa04.shtml (Miller) 90s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/martira02.shtml (Martinez) 90s

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boydoi01.shtml (Boyd) 90s

 

That's all I could come up with in a spare five minutes

 

 

Uh, thanks for the effort, but I want statistics, not examples. Anyone can come up with examples of pitchers who pitched a lot of innings and had arm trouble, and anyone can come up with examples of pitchers who pitched a lot of innings and had no problems.

 

Summary statistics are needed.