Bruce Miles Piece on the Big Murt

[Amazing_Grace]

Bruce, have you heard anything solid on how short Marquis' leash is going to be? Such as, what if Angel Guzman is forcing the issue, or Neal Cotts, Wade Miller, etc., and Marquis starts right off with 6.00 ERA. Any clue just how many starts he's going to get to "turn it around"?

 

Thanks

 

They haven't begun to think in those terms yet.

 

That's disturbing that they haven't at least thought of it. We're talking about a guy with a 6.02 ERA last year. I can't believe that he'll be allowed to post those type of numbers for very long after all the "World Series or bust" talk this offseason. It would make those words ring hollow if they were willing to keep a player starting for no reason other than contract.

[Magnetic Curses]

 

I think defense at SS was a problem last year, and I think it will be a big upgrade this year. How much impact will that have on the team? I honestly don't know.

 

i think that's the perception more than reality. how many runs did cedeno cost us over a league average replacement?

 

how many games did that cost us? i'd think that it didn't cost us many.

 

furthermore, i doubt that izturis's glove will win us a significant amount of games next year. the best effect it may have on the team is the perception among our pitchers. if they're more apt to throw strikes because they're more confident in his defense, then it can benefit the team.

[Danny82]

Bruce, have you heard anything solid on how short Marquis' leash is going to be? Such as, what if Angel Guzman is forcing the issue, or Neal Cotts, Wade Miller, etc., and Marquis starts right off with 6.00 ERA. Any clue just how many starts he's going to get to "turn it around"?

 

Thanks

 

They haven't begun to think in those terms yet.

 

That's disturbing that they haven't at least thought of it. We're talking about a guy with a 6.02 ERA last year. I can't believe that he'll be allowed to post those type of numbers for very long after all the "World Series or bust" talk this offseason. It would make those words ring hollow if they were willing to keep a player starting for no reason other than contract.

Why in the world would they talk about that issue publicly to the media?

[Bruce Miles]

Bruce, have you heard anything solid on how short Marquis' leash is going to be? Such as, what if Angel Guzman is forcing the issue, or Neal Cotts, Wade Miller, etc., and Marquis starts right off with 6.00 ERA. Any clue just how many starts he's going to get to "turn it around"?

 

Thanks

 

They haven't begun to think in those terms yet.

 

That's disturbing that they haven't at least thought of it. We're talking about a guy with a 6.02 ERA last year. I can't believe that he'll be allowed to post those type of numbers for very long after all the "World Series or bust" talk this offseason. It would make those words ring hollow if they were willing to keep a player starting for no reason other than contract.

Why in the world would they talk about that issue publicly to the media?

 

No team signs a guy for three years and $21 million and then says, "What do we do if he sucks?" No team. You're right, there's no way a team will talk about that publicly. Why plant a negative seed in a player's mind? The Cubs fully anticipate Marquis being in their rotation and being effective. If that doesn't happen, they'll cross that bridge when they come to it.

[CuseCubFan69]

Bruce, have you heard anything solid on how short Marquis' leash is going to be? Such as, what if Angel Guzman is forcing the issue, or Neal Cotts, Wade Miller, etc., and Marquis starts right off with 6.00 ERA. Any clue just how many starts he's going to get to "turn it around"?

 

Thanks

 

They haven't begun to think in those terms yet.

 

That's disturbing that they haven't at least thought of it. We're talking about a guy with a 6.02 ERA last year. I can't believe that he'll be allowed to post those type of numbers for very long after all the "World Series or bust" talk this offseason. It would make those words ring hollow if they were willing to keep a player starting for no reason other than contract.

Why in the world would they talk about that issue publicly to the media?

 

No team signs a guy for three years and $21 million and then says, "What do we do if he sucks?" No team. You're right, there's no way a team will talk about that publicly. Why plant a negative seed in a player's mind? The Cubs fully anticipate Marquis being in their rotation and being effective. If that doesn't happen, they'll cross that bridge when they come to it.

 

I want the Cubs to have 8 guys that look like they can flat out start and to give the Cubs a hard decision on what to do! This is the problem I want them to have.

[NCCubFan]

Help me remember, who should of replaced Estes in the rotation? Would it of been big Z?

 

a young guy, but not Z, who was already starting. I think i was pushing for Juan Cruz at the time. Estes did come up big in that start at the end of the season.

It was Cruz that many of us wanted in the rotation, because he did well in 2001 before Baylor messed with him in 2002. He did start 6 games in 2003.

[dew1679666265]

Keep in mind Izturis' injuries of late may have an appreciable effect on his defensive ability.

 

That and he's beyond terrible with the bat. His offensive lack of production will offset any defensive benefits he'll possibly provide.

 

What I'm saying is given our in house SS options, he's probably the 3rd best option in my world.

 

Maybe so, but the sad thing is that Izturis will still most likely be an upgrade both offensively and defensively over the Cubs SS's in 2006.

 

Edit: Another thing-the fact that people who are watching Izturis in spring training and are "raving" about his defensive skills, including apparently Bruce, tells me that he hasn't lost that much if at at all from the injuries defensively. How he responds with the bat, and if he continues his offensive progression before the injuries will be the big key.

 

This is an excellent point. Many people forget that last season we had Cedeno at short and he was terrible with the bat and glove.

I'll agree Izturis is not the ideal guy to have at short and we're not shooting for mediocrity or anything. But he definately is an upgrade over Cedeno even if he's not good with the bat and he has shown the ability to do better than that.

[KaiserCesar]

Help me remember, who should of replaced Estes in the rotation? Would it of been big Z?

 

a young guy, but not Z, who was already starting. I think i was pushing for Juan Cruz at the time. Estes did come up big in that start at the end of the season.

It was Cruz that many of us wanted in the rotation, because he did well in 2001 before Baylor messed with him in 2002. He did start 6 games in 2003.

 

IIRC he was tearing up Iowa, but Dusty wanted to keep the lefty in the rotation and Cruz only got his shot when Prior went down. I think I remember back to back Estes and Cruz games against the Astros one weekend where they each went about 6 IP 2 ER.

[nilodnayr]

Keep in mind Izturis' injuries of late may have an appreciable effect on his defensive ability.

 

That and he's beyond terrible with the bat. His offensive lack of production will offset any defensive benefits he'll possibly provide.

 

What I'm saying is given our in house SS options, he's probably the 3rd best option in my world.

 

Maybe so, but the sad thing is that Izturis will still most likely be an upgrade both offensively and defensively over the Cubs SS's in 2006.

 

Edit: Another thing-the fact that people who are watching Izturis in spring training and are "raving" about his defensive skills, including apparently Bruce, tells me that he hasn't lost that much if at at all from the injuries defensively. How he responds with the bat, and if he continues his offensive progression before the injuries will be the big key.

 

This is an excellent point. Many people forget that last season we had Cedeno at short and he was terrible with the bat and glove.

I'll agree Izturis is not the ideal guy to have at short and we're not shooting for mediocrity or anything. But he definately is an upgrade over Cedeno even if he's not good with the bat and he has shown the ability to do better than that.

 

I dont think anyone is saying that he wont be an upgrade, just that he will be a slight upgrade, where a large upgrade was possible.

[NCCubFan]

Help me remember, who should of replaced Estes in the rotation? Would it of been big Z?

 

a young guy, but not Z, who was already starting. I think i was pushing for Juan Cruz at the time. Estes did come up big in that start at the end of the season.

It was Cruz that many of us wanted in the rotation, because he did well in 2001 before Baylor messed with him in 2002. He did start 6 games in 2003.

 

IIRC he was tearing up Iowa, but Dusty wanted to keep the lefty in the rotation and Cruz only got his shot when Prior went down. I think I remember back to back Estes and Cruz games against the Astros one weekend where they each went about 6 IP 2 ER.

Cruz started the year in the Cubs' bullpen and struggled, then was sent to Iowa and was 4-0 with a 1.95 ERA before being called back up. I do think it was when Prior met Giles that he came back up. You are right about Dusty keeping Estes in the rotation because he gave up tons of runs with his left hand, which apparently was preferable to giving up fewer runs with the right hand. :D

[BigbadB]

Because Izturis is penciled in at SS without much of a battle, I can only hope that Cedeno gets plenty of reps in AAA to rebuild the confidence he lost.

 

We will never know what kind of, if any, added pressure was put on Cedeno by Dusty. Dusty was known to give the kids a hard time, which coupled with playing in front of large crowds and a veteran team that is counting on you, could have taken it's toll on Cedeno.

 

He's shown the ability to play outstanding defense at SS. He's shown the ability to hit well at the major league level, even if it was just a small sample size. The Cubs need to get Cedeno back to that point and continue his development in Iowa.

 

It's quite possible that Cedeno will be the SS once again in 2008. He needs a break out year in AAA or as Izturis' injury replacement to prevent the Cubs from having to go shopping to fill the SS spot, since money next offseason could be quite sparse.

[baseball7897]

Because Izturis is penciled in at SS without much of a battle, I can only hope that Cedeno gets plenty of reps in AAA to rebuild the confidence he lost.

 

We will never know what kind of, if any, added pressure was put on Cedeno by Dusty. Dusty was known to give the kids a hard time, which coupled with playing in front of large crowds and a veteran team that is counting on you, could have taken it's toll on Cedeno.

He's shown the ability to play outstanding defense at SS. He's shown the ability to hit well at the major league level, even if it was just a small sample size. The Cubs need to get Cedeno back to that point and continue his development in Iowa.

 

It's quite possible that Cedeno will be the SS once again in 2008. He needs a break out year in AAA or as Izturis' injury replacement to prevent the Cubs from having to go shopping to fill the SS spot, since money next offseason could be quite sparse.

 

That just sounds like excuse making 101. Could it be Cedeno was not ready yet? Cedeno should only blame himself for his play last year. Putting the blame on another person for your poor play is bush league.

[Balsa]

I'm pretty sure Cedeno is all but done with the Cubs.

 

Although they did have him working at 2B the other day.

[KaiserCesar]

I'm pretty sure Cedeno is all but done with the Cubs.

 

Although they did have him working at 2B the other day.

 

Is it really fair to give only one season at 23 years old to him? I think if Cedeno can get improve his approach in AAA and return to 05 form while Izturis doesn't rebound as well as expected, he could easily be seen again starting. The 2B might say they are planning on him being a backup middle infielder who can play both positions. He's got the potential to at least be a cheap bench option for a few years as long as he develops a little more.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I'm pretty sure Cedeno is all but done with the Cubs.

 

Although they did have him working at 2B the other day.

 

He's shown flashes of being a very good ballplayer. I doubt the Cubs give up on him so easily. He just wasn't emotionally ready to become an ML ballplayer.

 

Personally, I think it was his attitude. He was too complacent with being in Chicago instead of working his butt off. His misplays in the field were inexcusable. He has soft hands, ridiculous range, and a cannon for an arm. But somehow he managed to botch the most routine plays time and time again. That seems like work ethic to me.

 

His bat will be fine. I don't see .800 OPS from him being out of line with his minor league numbers or ability. With stellar defense, which he's fully capable of, he's very much a quality ML SS.

 

Ronny's '06 performance really irked me, but the talent is there to be so much better.

[98navigator]

I'm pretty sure Cedeno is all but done with the Cubs.

 

Although they did have him working at 2B the other day.

 

Is it really fair to give only one season at 23 years old to him? I think if Cedeno can get improve his approach in AAA and return to 05 form while Izturis doesn't rebound as well as expected, he could easily be seen again starting. The 2B might say they are planning on him being a backup middle infielder who can play both positions. He's got the potential to at least be a cheap bench option for a few years as long as he develops a little more.

 

I don't know if "fair" is the right word. It's a competitive business and any year a player fails to perform someone behind them gets better or is afforded the opportunity to showcase his talent. The Cubs didn't expect a lot offensively from Cedeno but his failures defensively opened the door for the Izturis trade, the DeRosa signing and even the emergence of Ryan Theriot on the ML club.

 

Cedeno may get another look as a starter in 2008 depeding on how he plays in AAA (or as a backup if he surprisingly makes the team). However, I wouldn't be surprised if Theriot, who isn't a SS by trade but has shown the ability to adapt, moves ahead of Cedeno in the pecking order.

[soccer10k]

Bruce, have you heard anything solid on how short Marquis' leash is going to be? Such as, what if Angel Guzman is forcing the issue, or Neal Cotts, Wade Miller, etc., and Marquis starts right off with 6.00 ERA. Any clue just how many starts he's going to get to "turn it around"?

 

Thanks

 

They haven't begun to think in those terms yet.

 

That's disturbing that they haven't at least thought of it. We're talking about a guy with a 6.02 ERA last year. I can't believe that he'll be allowed to post those type of numbers for very long after all the "World Series or bust" talk this offseason. It would make those words ring hollow if they were willing to keep a player starting for no reason other than contract.

Why in the world would they talk about that issue publicly to the media?

 

No team signs a guy for three years and $21 million and then says, "What do we do if he sucks?" No team. You're right, there's no way a team will talk about that publicly. Why plant a negative seed in a player's mind? The Cubs fully anticipate Marquis being in their rotation and being effective. If that doesn't happen, they'll cross that bridge when they come to it.

 

Not to mention that they haven't even started playing spring training games yet. If Marquis gets hit hard in his first few spring training appearances, I could see the team, at least internally and not in the media, talk about what they would do if Marquis didn't show improvement. But they signed the guy for a reason (not saying I agree with the reason) and they aren't going to start considering alternatives when the guy hasn't pitched in a game in their uniform yet.

[Balsa]

He's shown flashes of being a very good ballplayer. I doubt the Cubs give up on him so easily. He just wasn't emotionally ready to become an ML ballplayer.

So did Jason DuBois.

 

Personally, I think it was his attitude. He was too complacent with being in Chicago instead of working his butt off.

And where is your information for this? That's conjecture, plain and simple.

 

His bat will be fine. I don't see .800 OPS from him being out of line with his minor league numbers or ability. With stellar defense, which he's fully capable of, he's very much a quality ML SS.

I'm sorry, but that is way out of line. His minor league career OPS is .692.

 

Last year, in 534 ABs, he put up a .610 OPS. His OBP was .271 and his K/BB total was 17/109.

 

I actually agree with his defensive skills, and think those errors were just flukes. But he's looking like a Neifi Perez at best right now.

[Amazing_Grace]

Bruce, have you heard anything solid on how short Marquis' leash is going to be? Such as, what if Angel Guzman is forcing the issue, or Neal Cotts, Wade Miller, etc., and Marquis starts right off with 6.00 ERA. Any clue just how many starts he's going to get to "turn it around"?

 

Thanks

 

They haven't begun to think in those terms yet.

 

That's disturbing that they haven't at least thought of it. We're talking about a guy with a 6.02 ERA last year. I can't believe that he'll be allowed to post those type of numbers for very long after all the "World Series or bust" talk this offseason. It would make those words ring hollow if they were willing to keep a player starting for no reason other than contract.

Why in the world would they talk about that issue publicly to the media?

 

No team signs a guy for three years and $21 million and then says, "What do we do if he sucks?" No team. You're right, there's no way a team will talk about that publicly. Why plant a negative seed in a player's mind? The Cubs fully anticipate Marquis being in their rotation and being effective. If that doesn't happen, they'll cross that bridge when they come to it.

 

That's a good point. At least they don't do it publicly. I'm still curious as to why the Cubs felt the need to sign Marquis to three years when they could have had cheaper options on one year deals like Trachsel, Chan-Ho, etc. I guess Hendry must really believe he's worth it. The Marquis contract is likely to be the worst contract since Todd Hundley. Unless this team wins a WS this season, I hope it's Hendry's last as GM.

[USSoccer]

 

This is an excellent point. Many people forget that last season we had Cedeno at short and he was terrible with the bat and glove.

I'll agree Izturis is not the ideal guy to have at short and we're not shooting for mediocrity or anything. But he definately is an upgrade over Cedeno even if he's not good with the bat and he has shown the ability to do better than that.

 

One sort of good season isn't going to cut it. His career OBP is below .300. That's terrible. I'd rather have Neifi, and I hated Neifi.

 

EDIT:

 

Izturis' Career BA/OBP/SLG%: .259 .295 .336

Neifi's: Career BA/OBP/SLG%: .268 .298 .376

 

Neifi's actually the better offensive player. That's pathetic.

 

EDIT #2:

 

Zambrano's Career BA/OBP/SLG% .212 .223 .355

 

His SLG% is higher than Izturis'. That's extra-pathetic.

Edited February 26, 2007 by USSoccer

[Danny82]

 

This is an excellent point. Many people forget that last season we had Cedeno at short and he was terrible with the bat and glove.

I'll agree Izturis is not the ideal guy to have at short and we're not shooting for mediocrity or anything. But he definately is an upgrade over Cedeno even if he's not good with the bat and he has shown the ability to do better than that.

 

One sort of good season isn't going to cut it. His career OBP is below .300. That's terrible. I'd rather have Neifi, and I hated Neifi.

That's simply not a reasonable position to take, considering Izturis' age and likely improvement.

 

I'm not saying Izturis is some great option or anything, but he takes an unnecessarily high amount of criticism on this board relative to what he will likely be asked to do...be the #8 hitter and play great defense.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Danny82

[USSoccer]

 

This is an excellent point. Many people forget that last season we had Cedeno at short and he was terrible with the bat and glove.

I'll agree Izturis is not the ideal guy to have at short and we're not shooting for mediocrity or anything. But he definately is an upgrade over Cedeno even if he's not good with the bat and he has shown the ability to do better than that.

 

One sort of good season isn't going to cut it. His career OBP is below .300. That's terrible. I'd rather have Neifi, and I hated Neifi.

That's simply not a reasonable position to take.

 

I'm not saying Izturis is some great option or anything, but he takes an unnecessarily high amount of criticism on this board for what he will likely be asked to do...be the #8 hitter and play great defense.

 

Did you bother to look at the statistical evidence that shows Neifi to somehow be the superior offensive player?

 

At his salary, Cesar Izturis should be expected to be better than he is. He's not. He's terrible. He's worse than Neifi on offense, and likely his equal with the glove.

[USSoccer]

Also, what likely improvement? Any improvement on Izturis' part takes him from awful to below average, and that's not factoring in the fact that his injuries will likely affect his run-scoring glove.

 

You can't continue to ignore these things. His being a starter is going to cost this team games, and this team isn't good enough to deal with a complete zero at SS.

 

I'm going to post this again just so you don't miss it:

 

Izturis' Career BA/OBP/SLG%: .259 .295 .336

Neifi's: Career BA/OBP/SLG%: .268 .298 .376

[Danny82]

CubsColtPacer (I think it was him) has broken down the statistical indicators (also considering his age and how he was rushed through the minors) several times that show that we can reasonably expect improvement from Izturis this year over his career numbers.

 

I'll look for one of his posts.

 

Again, I'm not saying he's a great alternative, but I don't think he's nearly as bad as he's made to be on these boards. And I think a lot of that has to do with the strict sabermatrician types having very little regard for the importance of defensive talent.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Danny82

[USSoccer]

CubsColtPacer (I think it was him) has broken down the statistical indicators (also considering his age and how he was rushed through the minors) several times that show that we can reasonably expect improvement from Izturis this year over his career numbers.

 

I'll look for one of his posts.

 

Again, I'm not saying he's a great alternative, but I don't think he's nearly as bad as he's made to be on these boards.

 

And again, improvement from career numbers takes him from one of the worst regulars ever to simply well below average.