Ramirez Hustle Complaints Are Starting Already

[Chocolate Milk]

It comes down to these people's expectations of ballplayers. They expect them to do everything that they can to win. They know that sometimes they are not going to win regardless because of the quality of other teams, but the most important thing is to do everything that the ballplayers can control to win-if those players aren't doing that, then it is the absolutely most frustrating thing. The underdog mentality that some people have of rooting for the underdog or small guy in all things also feeds into this mentality of no matter your talent level the first thing that you can control is your effort, and so that if the most fundamental thing.

What adds to this is that a lot of the fans bust their butt in the workplace to make a pittance of what professional ballplayers make and have no patience for a player who doesn't give 100% effort to play a game.

 

I'm not making a judgment on Ramirez one way or another here, but am just trying to give some perspective as to the reasons some fans have the viewpoints that they do.

 

And yet a lot of the complainers don't really bust their own butts 100% of the time, but they get all sanctimonious when complaining about ballplayers because it makes themselves feel better.

 

Totally agree. The "I bust my butt in the workplace" defense is a joke. No one is balls to the wall 100% of the time at work. NO ONE. But whenever this sort of topic is brought up, everyone is a dynamo.

[USSoccer]

It comes down to these people's expectations of ballplayers. They expect them to do everything that they can to win. They know that sometimes they are not going to win regardless because of the quality of other teams, but the most important thing is to do everything that the ballplayers can control to win-if those players aren't doing that, then it is the absolutely most frustrating thing. The underdog mentality that some people have of rooting for the underdog or small guy in all things also feeds into this mentality of no matter your talent level the first thing that you can control is your effort, and so that if the most fundamental thing.

What adds to this is that a lot of the fans bust their butt in the workplace to make a pittance of what professional ballplayers make and have no patience for a player who doesn't give 100% effort to play a game.

 

I'm not making a judgment on Ramirez one way or another here, but am just trying to give some perspective as to the reasons some fans have the viewpoints that they do.

 

And yet a lot of the complainers don't really bust their own butts 100% of the time, but they get all sanctimonious when complaining about ballplayers because it makes themselves feel better.

What is your point? I was merely giving an example of why some fans might feel that way. How does your post change what I said?

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

[Danny82]

Abuck, if you continue to take such a negative personal interest in my posts, feel free to place me on "ignore."

 

Thank you.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Danny82

[Danny82]

It comes down to these people's expectations of ballplayers. They expect them to do everything that they can to win. They know that sometimes they are not going to win regardless because of the quality of other teams, but the most important thing is to do everything that the ballplayers can control to win-if those players aren't doing that, then it is the absolutely most frustrating thing. The underdog mentality that some people have of rooting for the underdog or small guy in all things also feeds into this mentality of no matter your talent level the first thing that you can control is your effort, and so that if the most fundamental thing.

What adds to this is that a lot of the fans bust their butt in the workplace to make a pittance of what professional ballplayers make and have no patience for a player who doesn't give 100% effort to play a game.

 

I'm not making a judgment on Ramirez one way or another here, but am just trying to give some perspective as to the reasons some fans have the viewpoints that they do.

 

And yet a lot of the complainers don't really bust their own butts 100% of the time, but they get all sanctimonious when complaining about ballplayers because it makes themselves feel better.

What is your point? I was merely giving an example of why some fans might feel that way. How does your post change what I said?

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

[Chocolate Milk]

It comes down to these people's expectations of ballplayers. They expect them to do everything that they can to win. They know that sometimes they are not going to win regardless because of the quality of other teams, but the most important thing is to do everything that the ballplayers can control to win-if those players aren't doing that, then it is the absolutely most frustrating thing. The underdog mentality that some people have of rooting for the underdog or small guy in all things also feeds into this mentality of no matter your talent level the first thing that you can control is your effort, and so that if the most fundamental thing.

What adds to this is that a lot of the fans bust their butt in the workplace to make a pittance of what professional ballplayers make and have no patience for a player who doesn't give 100% effort to play a game.

 

I'm not making a judgment on Ramirez one way or another here, but am just trying to give some perspective as to the reasons some fans have the viewpoints that they do.

 

And yet a lot of the complainers don't really bust their own butts 100% of the time, but they get all sanctimonious when complaining about ballplayers because it makes themselves feel better.

What is your point? I was merely giving an example of why some fans might feel that way. How does your post change what I said?

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

 

What? You can't possibly be saying that people who aren't putting in 100% effort every day at work are the exception to the rule, are you?

Edited February 21, 2007 by Chocolate Milk

[USSoccer]

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

 

Please. No one, at any job, ever, goes 100% all of the time.

[C.C.]

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

 

Please. No one, at any job, ever, goes 100% all of the time.

 

Espically if they are posting right now...

[CubColtPacer]

It comes down to these people's expectations of ballplayers. They expect them to do everything that they can to win. They know that sometimes they are not going to win regardless because of the quality of other teams, but the most important thing is to do everything that the ballplayers can control to win-if those players aren't doing that, then it is the absolutely most frustrating thing. The underdog mentality that some people have of rooting for the underdog or small guy in all things also feeds into this mentality of no matter your talent level the first thing that you can control is your effort, and so that if the most fundamental thing.

What adds to this is that a lot of the fans bust their butt in the workplace to make a pittance of what professional ballplayers make and have no patience for a player who doesn't give 100% effort to play a game.

 

I'm not making a judgment on Ramirez one way or another here, but am just trying to give some perspective as to the reasons some fans have the viewpoints that they do.

 

And yet a lot of the complainers don't really bust their own butts 100% of the time, but they get all sanctimonious when complaining about ballplayers because it makes themselves feel better.

What is your point? I was merely giving an example of why some fans might feel that way. How does your post change what I said?

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

Well, many fans feel that they have the right to expect effort out of the ballplayers-many of them pay a lot of money to support the team, and they feel the least thing the players could do in return is to "leave it all out on the field." I'm not saying that you have to agree with it, but I'm shocked at the level of names that those people have been called already in this thread for just valuing effort and character first.

[Danny82]

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

 

Please. No one, at any job, ever, goes 100% all of the time.

 

I'm sure a fair share go 100% for a large percentage of the time.

 

And they would certainly do so for the whole 10-20 times per ballgame that a player is required to do so.

[Derwood]

i expect my football team to go all out 100% of the time for 16 games. I expect the same of my 35 game college b-ball team. 162 games (with few days off) is tough to go all out on every single play

[CubColtPacer]

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

 

Please. No one, at any job, ever, goes 100% all of the time.

 

I'm sure a fair share go 100% for a large percentage of the time.

 

And they would certainly do so for the whole 10-20 times per ballgame that a player is required to do so.

 

Exactly-those people know that players aren't always going to be focused in practices or meetings sometime. For a major league ballplayer though, evaluations come 162 times a year, and they expect that for those times that the ballplayer if going to try their best, just as a person at a job does when it comes times for their work to be evaluated.

[CubColtPacer]

i expect my football team to go all out 100% of the time for 16 games. I expect the same of my 35 game college b-ball team. 162 games (with few days off) is tough to go all out on every single play

 

That's a good point. For both the NBA and MLB, there are going to be a few games where your team just isn't there-the long season just makes it that way. Also, some players just don't have it at times-if it's an aberration, most people dismiss it as such. For most people, hustling doesn't become that big of a problem unless it happens on a decently routine basis.

[USSoccer]

 

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of the hustling issue.

 

For some. Not everybody. Exceptions don't always make the rule.

 

Please. No one, at any job, ever, goes 100% all of the time.

 

I'm sure a fair share go 100% for a large percentage of the time.

 

And they would certainly do so for the whole 10-20 times per ballgame that a player is required to do so.

 

So in other words, you concede that no one goes 100% all of the time?

[Danny82]

So what if I do???

 

What baseball player does? Like I said before, a baseball player is only expected to give his all for a given number of times a game. Ramirez isn't running to first when Barrett hits one down the line, is he?

 

I'm just saying that some fans take offense to players not going 100% the few times they are asked to during the duration of a ballgame. I see no reason for demeaning fans that like who value character, hard work, and a respect for the game.

[Chocolate Milk]

I want a very important and slow player with a history of leg injuries to sprint out every ground ball on the microscopic chance he may beat out a throw. When he goes down with the inevitable leg injury and misses 30 games, I'll feel good about it because I give 100% at my job every single second and so should he.

[UK1679666180]

His work ethic outside of gametime is more telling the few times he runs out a ground ball hard during a close play.

 

I'd be more interested in what type of shape he is in at Mesa rather than whether or not Piniella will get on him for not running out a ground ball.

 

Fan expectation or not, his work ethic during practice as well as his conditioning program will have a greater impact in the season than what the gist of the article portrays.

[USSoccer]

I want a very important and slow player with a history of leg injuries to sprint out every ground ball on the microscopic chance he may beat out a throw. When he goes down with the inevitable leg injury and misses 30 games, I'll feel good about it because I give 100% at my job every single second and so should he.

 

Anyone remember the play that knocked ARam out for the year in 2005?

 

It was hustling down the line, trying to break up a DP.

 

And he was promptly called "soft" and "injury prone".

[CubColtPacer]

I want a very important and slow player with a history of leg injuries to sprint out every ground ball on the microscopic chance he may beat out a throw. When he goes down with the inevitable leg injury and misses 30 games, I'll feel good about it because I give 100% at my job every single second and so should he.

 

A good point, which is a reason that being upset against Ramirez not hustling is not nearly as good of an example as others-although I think many people would dispute that his chance of a leg injury is going to go up by more than a little bit if he hustles (although I think that could be debated). That's not all Ramirez is criticized for though-he had multiple balls that hit off the wall last year that turned into singles because Ramirez walked down the line or stood there watching assuming it was a home run. Again, I think his hustling lapses are way overblown (if he's the worst hustler on the team, than the Cubs are a better hustling team than most), but they are there and it's not all just running down the first base line to beat a ground ball.

[NewUserName]

A lot of the problem with this whole arguement is that "hustle" boils down to perception. Some people no matter how hard they try will never appear to be hustling. Some will always look like they are hustling. I used to have a kid who worked for me who looked like he was goofing off half the time and didnt care. At the end of the day he had more work done than almost every other person. We had this other guy who was always sweeting, always moving looked really busy. He didnt have a lot of work done at the end of the day. What he was really hustling on was work that didnt need to be done. So he was spending a lot of time working on none work.

 

In the terms of "hustling out grounders" In theory this is working at none work. You are going to be thrown out 99% of the time no matter what. If by chance there is an error you may have lost a chance to go to 2nd. This is extremely rare though.

 

If 2 players are equal I would rather have the one that ran out grounders. I am guessing that hustling is even worth .025 of OPS so it wouldnt take much for me to prefer ARam over a hustling David Eckstein

[CubColtPacer]

His work ethic outside of gametime is more telling the few times he runs out a ground ball hard during a close play.

 

I'd be more interested in what type of shape he is in at Mesa rather than whether or not Piniella will get on him for not running out a ground ball.

 

Fan expectation or not, his work ethic during practice as well as his conditioning program will have a greater impact in the season than what the gist of the article portrays.

 

That's another good point, and one that's sometimes hard to tell for sure-although again, Ramirez and Eyre have both been criticized for possibly being out of shape on the board the past couple of days, and only Ramirez did people object to it being unfair-it's all a matter of perception and production sometimes.

[Sammy Sofa]

What drives in more runs, Aramis' hustle or Izturius' glove?

[BigbadB]

Hustle is important to me. But, it's not the be all end all. It pisses me off when I see someone loafing down the first base line. The people sitting in the stands deserve more than that for their top dollar ticket.

 

But, I think a big reason Aramis loafed the past few years (occasionally) is because he was nursing along an injury AND Dusty was not exactly a crack the whip manager. Dusty's managing style made it okay to loaf and have zero consequences. At least that's my view, anyway.

 

And for every time Aramis loafed to 1b on a ground ball, he hustled on other plays. Is he really just lazy? His bat hasn't gotten lazy. His defense is much improved since his first season manning 3b for the Cubs.

 

I'll take the improved defense and consistent production from his bat over being out at 1st base by 3 or 4 steps instead of 2 every time. Face it. The guy is not a speed demon. He is not going to win any foot races to first base. A time may come where the SS bobbles the ball on a play that Aramis might have had a chance to beat out if he was running full speed, and I'll trust Lou to give Aramis a lecture when it happens.

[CubColtPacer]

Hustle is important to me. But, it's not the be all end all. It pisses me off when I see someone loafing down the first base line. The people sitting in the stands deserve more than that for their top dollar ticket.

 

But, I think a big reason Aramis loafed the past few years (occasionally) is because he was nursing along an injury AND Dusty was not exactly a crack the whip manager. Dusty's managing style made it okay to loaf and have zero consequences. At least that's my view, anyway.

 

And for every time Aramis loafed to 1b on a ground ball, he hustled on other plays. Is he really just lazy? His bat hasn't gotten lazy. His defense is much improved since his first season manning 3b for the Cubs.

 

I'll take the improved defense and consistent production from his bat over being out at 1st base by 3 or 4 steps instead of 2 every time. Face it. The guy is not a speed demon. He is not going to win any foot races to first base. A time may come where the SS bobbles the ball on a play that Aramis might have had a chance to beat out if he was running full speed, and I'll trust Lou to give Aramis a lecture when it happens.

 

That's a great post for my view as well-I'm upset about players not hustling, but the way Aramis works on the other parts of his game still tells me that he works hard to try to get better, which makes up for those hustling mistakes as long as they are pointed out to him as well when he does do them.

[Soul]

I'm sort of with BBB on this.

 

If Ramirez was really lazy, then how can he put up those numbers? That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Sounds to me like Dusty told him to take it easy, and so he did. If it means Ramirez plays the whole year, then I don't mind him not straining his legs on every ground ball. Not that it doesn't upset me when a guy loafs, because it does. But I hate seeing a player like Ramirez on the DL much more.

 

I'm having a hard time believing this is what "people" are going to focus on. Maybe the crybaby media will, but surely not the average fan. Especially if the Cubs are winning.

[BigbadB]

Winning really is the cure all for a lot of things.

 

For example, a team that is going nowhere with a 60-90 record makes it hard for a player to go out there and work his butt off.

 

A team that is 90-60 is a fun team to play on, and you want to hustle out a grounder, because you have a totally positive attitude about the team you are playing on. You're playing for something, and as much as we want to think everyone should work hard regardless of the score or the team record, I think winning tends to bring more out in a player.