Who bats second?

[Pushfrog98]

I know this will probably get me banned from this site, but what happens if spring training rolls around, and Matt Murton doesn't play as well as cliff floyd? What happens then? do we still play murton because he has "tremendous upside potential?" or do we play the man who plays better NOW?

 

I like murton and I hope he plays well and gets the appropriate playing time, but I'm at the point where I don't care WHO plays, just as long as the cubs WIN!

 

I'm very much against using limited spring training at-bats as a deciding factor in who gets the starting job.

Are you against using limited spring training at-bats as a deciding factor only when it goes against what you want?

 

Again, I like matt murton, but what if he "jerome walton's" on us, shows a lot of promise last year and then is horrid this year. He has the "skills" but what if it never matures into a great player, and then we have Cliff Floyd who was sitting the bench because someone didn't want to use "limited spring training at-bats" to decide who should play. I think who ever is playing well at that particular time should be playing. If murton is better than floyd (and I think we can all agree that overall, he is), then murton should be playing, but if murton his a slide like he did last season, then he should sit for a while and let whoever is hot play until he gets his act together.

 

Also, I am pretty sure there are several articles that state Lou Piniella saying he doesn't want to take any at bats away from Murton, which I take as "He thinks murton is good and doesn't want to take any at bats away from him."

[CuseCubFan69]

I know this will probably get me banned from this site, but what happens if spring training rolls around, and Matt Murton doesn't play as well as cliff floyd? What happens then? do we still play murton because he has "tremendous upside potential?" or do we play the man who plays better NOW?

 

I like murton and I hope he plays well and gets the appropriate playing time, but I'm at the point where I don't care WHO plays, just as long as the cubs WIN!

 

I hope you were kidding with that first sentence!

 

I think things have a way of working out for the better player to play, especially now that Baker is gone. If Floyd is hitting 320/410 and Jones is doing really well also while Murton is struggling I have no problem with it. I think it benefits the team best if Lou can find a way to use the OF's efficiently and to try to give AB's to the top 4 guys as much as he can. I'm sure Soriano is in there pretty much every game so I'd like Murton in there against all leftys and to get some AB's against rightys too depending on the matchups.

[Chocolate Milk]

Bruce...you were there when Dusty first got hired. What things do you see that are different in Lou's first couple of days than Dusty's?

 

This coaching staff here works and works and works.

 

The implication here is that Dusty and Co. weren't exactly putting their noses to the grindstone, right? Not surprising.

 

Great to hear about the hard work of the new coaching staff, however.

[CuseCubFan69]

Bruce...you were there when Dusty first got hired. What things do you see that are different in Lou's first couple of days than Dusty's?

 

This coaching staff here works and works and works.

 

The implication here is that Dusty and Co. weren't exactly putting their noses to the grindstone, right? Not surprising.

 

Great to hear about the hard work of the new coaching staff, however.

 

And hopefully it's productive do it right work. If you're doing something wrong and keep on doing it wrong all the hard work is doing is keeping you from getting better and possibly making you worse.

[Pushfrog98]

I know this will probably get me banned from this site, but what happens if spring training rolls around, and Matt Murton doesn't play as well as cliff floyd? What happens then? do we still play murton because he has "tremendous upside potential?" or do we play the man who plays better NOW?

 

I like murton and I hope he plays well and gets the appropriate playing time, but I'm at the point where I don't care WHO plays, just as long as the cubs WIN!

 

I hope you were kidding with that first sentence!

 

I think things have a way of working out for the better player to play, especially now that Baker is gone. If Floyd is hitting 320/410 and Jones is doing really well also while Murton is struggling I have no problem with it. I think it benefits the team best if Lou can find a way to use the OF's efficiently and to try to give AB's to the top 4 guys as much as he can. I'm sure Soriano is in there pretty much every game so I'd like Murton in there against all leftys and to get some AB's against rightys too depending on the matchups.

 

I was only moderately joking... sometimes "fans" of certain teams develop man-crushes on certain players and deem them as "untouchable" when in reality, they aren't as good as they may think.

 

For example, outside of Cubs fans, not many people know who Michael Wuertz is, but apparently, he's one of the greatest relief pitchers to have ever played the game (exaggerated, I know, just trying to drive the point home).

 

Also, I think Jones batting 2nd would be a great idea. Its very Tony Larussa-ish (which has been said already, but I live right outside St. Louis, so I get to hear about what kind of genius LaRussa is on a daily basis). The cubs have said to heck with small ball, so you have to change your mindset in terms of the batting order.

 

Although, LaRussa and the cardinals don't have anything to show for their "stupid" moves of putting Duncan or Encarnocion(sp?) in the 2 spot... aside from that world series title.

[imb]

Encarnacion's OPS in the 2-hole last year was .448. Duncan did do well though.

[David]

I know this will probably get me banned from this site, but what happens if spring training rolls around, and Matt Murton doesn't play as well as cliff floyd? What happens then? do we still play murton because he has "tremendous upside potential?" or do we play the man who plays better NOW?

 

I like murton and I hope he plays well and gets the appropriate playing time, but I'm at the point where I don't care WHO plays, just as long as the cubs WIN!

 

You should never base major personell and lineup decisions on spring training performance (this is true of pitchers, especially, but position players too). There are too many variables, and it's not usually a very significant sample size to base anything on.

 

I wish there were less of this competing for a job in ST crap in MLB circles, but, at least, spring performance usually isn't used to determine much aside from a 5th starter, 12th pitcher, or last guy off the bench.

 

I'd say the loads of information you have on a player before a spring game is even played are far more valuable in terms of coming to a conclusion than anything you can get out of 30 spring training games.

 

Besides, Murton isn't just a case of a guy with potential. He has shown he can do it. His floor is there. He doesn't need to prove he belongs at the Major League level, he just needs to continue to progress and have a chance to reach his ceiling.

Edited February 19, 2007 by David

[Pushfrog98]

Encarnacion's OPS in the 2-hole last year was .448. Duncan did do well though.

And before last year, were either Encarnacion or Duncan thought of as #2 hitters?

 

If I recall correctly, Encarnacion was penciled in as a 5-6-7 guy (depending on who was sitting), and Duncan was more of a 5-6-7 guy as well.

 

Put ANYBODY in front of Pujols, and I promise you they will hit better.

[radarluv1]

well, soriano isnt exactly a prototypical leadoff guy, so i'm hoping lou isnt afraid to be creative and come up with something that works.

[David]

Encarnacion's OPS in the 2-hole last year was .448. Duncan did do well though.

And before last year, were either Encarnacion or Duncan thought of as #2 hitters?

 

If I recall correctly, Encarnacion was penciled in as a 5-6-7 guy (depending on who was sitting), and Duncan was more of a 5-6-7 guy as well.

 

Put ANYBODY in front of Pujols, and I promise you they will hit better.

 

I don't see what your argument is. IMB just showed you that Encarnacion sucked even more than usual in the 2-hole (with Pujols "protecting" him), not that lineup splits usually provide much of a significant sample size anyway.

[BigbadB]

Are you against using limited spring training at-bats as a deciding factor only when it goes against what you want?

 

Do you think Spring Training is the best indicator of what a player will do at the major league level for that season? Because I can give you an extensive list of players who did well in Spring Training and then did nothing at the major league level. Angel Pagan got a job last year because of his Spring Training. Should Angel play over Murton?

 

Now, Spring Training is good and all, but what is it really when you compare it to the grind of a long baseball season?

 

#1. It's played in Arizona, where it's 80+ degrees everyday and there is little to no humidity and the ball travels very far when it is hit. When does Chicago have that kind of playing condition? Never? Once in a blue moon?

 

#2. Spring Training is when pitchers are for the first time stretching themselves out. Starters don't make it past 3 or 4 innings until the very end of Spring Training. Even then, they aren't throwing their best stuff over and over to tax their arms before the season even starts.

 

#3. Because pitchers are only going a small handful of innings, crappy pitchers who are trying to make big league rosters are lobbing balls up there for hitting pleasure.

 

#4. Scouting reports on where to play guys defensively? Probably not a huge emphasis on that, therefore balls can find holes that might not be holes during the regular season.

 

I'm sure there's plenty more that others can add. Spring Training is for getting everybody in good playing shape, work on fundamentals and maybe, just maybe get a good look at someone to fill a roster spot if there is an opening. The only opening on the Cubs 25 man roster is the 25th man, IMO. Murton or Floyd are not the 25th man. Murton and Floyd is depth, and I do like that. It's something Cubs outfields have not had in a very long time.

 

While it is a problem finding playing time for all the outfielders, it's a much better problem to have than to not have depth at all.

 

Murton has proven he is a major league caliber player. He doesn't need spring training to prove anything. As far as playing time, it's up to Lou Piniella to find plenty of playing time for all 4 outfielders, and the ones who are playing the best deserve the most playing time.

[imb]

Encarnacion's OPS in the 2-hole last year was .448. Duncan did do well though.

And before last year, were either Encarnacion or Duncan thought of as #2 hitters?

 

If I recall correctly, Encarnacion was penciled in as a 5-6-7 guy (depending on who was sitting), and Duncan was more of a 5-6-7 guy as well.

 

Put ANYBODY in front of Pujols, and I promise you they will hit better.

 

But Encarnacion hit worse in front of him.

[USSoccer]

 

I was only moderately joking... sometimes "fans" of certain teams develop man-crushes on certain players and deem them as "untouchable" when in reality, they aren't as good as they may think.

 

For example, outside of Cubs fans, not many people know who Michael Wuertz is, but apparently, he's one of the greatest relief pitchers to have ever played the game (exaggerated, I know, just trying to drive the point home).

 

 

This is ridiculous.

 

Rocket's point is completely valid. You don't base your roster decisions on 50 AB's in AZ and ignore the much larger career sample size.

 

Matt Murton has 595 career AB's. He'll get less than 75 in AZ. Which is going to be the better indicator of his ability? If he hits .180 in AZ and Floyd hits 1.000, do you really think that's any indicator of what's going to happen over the course of a season?

 

You can crack on people for having their "mancrushes" or favorites or whatever you want to call it. The idea that ST should somehow mean more than a career's worth of sample sizes, or looking at splits and usage patterns is laughably stupid.

[CuseCubFan69]

I know this will probably get me banned from this site, but what happens if spring training rolls around, and Matt Murton doesn't play as well as cliff floyd? What happens then? do we still play murton because he has "tremendous upside potential?" or do we play the man who plays better NOW?

 

I like murton and I hope he plays well and gets the appropriate playing time, but I'm at the point where I don't care WHO plays, just as long as the cubs WIN!

 

I hope you were kidding with that first sentence!

 

I think things have a way of working out for the better player to play, especially now that Baker is gone. If Floyd is hitting 320/410 and Jones is doing really well also while Murton is struggling I have no problem with it. I think it benefits the team best if Lou can find a way to use the OF's efficiently and to try to give AB's to the top 4 guys as much as he can. I'm sure Soriano is in there pretty much every game so I'd like Murton in there against all leftys and to get some AB's against rightys too depending on the matchups.

 

I was only moderately joking... sometimes "fans" of certain teams develop man-crushes on certain players and deem them as "untouchable" when in reality, they aren't as good as they may think.

 

For example, outside of Cubs fans, not many people know who Michael Wuertz is, but apparently, he's one of the greatest relief pitchers to have ever played the game (exaggerated, I know, just trying to drive the point home).

 

Also, I think Jones batting 2nd would be a great idea. Its very Tony Larussa-ish (which has been said already, but I live right outside St. Louis, so I get to hear about what kind of genius LaRussa is on a daily basis). The cubs have said to heck with small ball, so you have to change your mindset in terms of the batting order.

 

Although, LaRussa and the cardinals don't have anything to show for their "stupid" moves of putting Duncan or Encarnocion(sp?) in the 2 spot... aside from that world series title.

 

From what I've seen of Murton he has shown progression and that's why I'm optimistic about him. I also think the manlove he recieves is because Baker never played him enough, especially since the Cubs stunk last year, and he showed a lot of promise. If he got that flat out you're playing chance last year like he should have we would have known more.

 

The Wuetz thing as far as I see it is once again the Dusty thing. He uses him way too much and then not at all. I do think he is an effective reliever but not the end all and I doubt anyone really thinks that and I do understand that you were just trying to prove a point.

 

Personally, I think you use your players to the best of their ability and put them is the best postions to succeed for the team weather it's a bunt or whatever. I think throwing out options make you predictable and when certain circumstances arise I'd like to see the Cubs to be able to succeed.

[CubColtPacer]

Are you against using limited spring training at-bats as a deciding factor only when it goes against what you want?

 

 

 

Murton has proven he is a major league caliber player. He doesn't need spring training to prove anything. As far as playing time, it's up to Lou Piniella to find plenty of playing time for all 4 outfielders, and the ones who are playing the best deserve the most playing time.

 

I think however much he's overstated his point that this is his point as well. If Floyd is playing better than Murton at the end of ST, then it's not a problem if he gets the majority of starts at the beginning of the season. Murton should still get plenty of time in any scenario, and if he then started out-performing Floyd (assuming the prior scenario) than Murton would start getting the majority of time. No matter who starts when though, all 3 corner outfielders should get plenty of at-bats.

[Rob]

FWIW BP's depth charts predict Murton getting 40% of the PA from LF and 15% from RF for 401 PA... Floyd 373 PA... and Jones 484 PA.

 

Doesn't seem too far from being logical...

[CuseCubFan69]

FWIW BP's depth charts predict Murton getting 40% of the PA from LF and 15% from RF for 401 PA... Floyd 373 PA... and Jones 484 PA.

 

Doesn't seem too far from being logical...

 

If Baker was the manager and Floyd was healthy those numbers would never happen.

[CubColtPacer]

FWIW BP's depth charts predict Murton getting 40% of the PA from LF and 15% from RF for 401 PA... Floyd 373 PA... and Jones 484 PA.

 

Doesn't seem too far from being logical...

 

That seems about right to me. Murton should get every at-bat against left-handed starters. That should be somewhere around 200 PA right there. If he gets even 1/3 of the starts aginst right-handed starters, then that would put him at 350, and pinch-hitting and double switches could probably push him up to 400. Jones ends up getting the most at-bats because he is the only one reliable enough to play RF right now (I hope that Murton gets out there and gets acclimated quickly to RF so Murton and Floyd can play against some lefties, I don't want to see Floyd in RF at all), and Floyd takes the rest of the right handed at-bats from Murton and a few of the left-handed bats from Jones.

 

I know many of you hate this practice, but history against certain pitchers might dictate some of the matchups. I don't mind it in a situation like this when the players are likely to be similarly productive anyway (although in different ways)-it's bad when you start Blanco over Barrett because of it, but I think it can be helpful in deciding between similar players for that day. I can also see Lou changing his lineup based on which way the wind is blowing at Wrigley.

[David]

I sure hope Jones doesn't get the most AB's. I'm still holding out hope that he'll sit the vast majority of the time against lefties. The recent quotes from Piniella about being open to platoons and about working out/using Theriot and DeRosa in the OF provide reason for a little optimism, IMO.

[CuseCubFan69]

FWIW BP's depth charts predict Murton getting 40% of the PA from LF and 15% from RF for 401 PA... Floyd 373 PA... and Jones 484 PA.

 

Doesn't seem too far from being logical...

 

That seems about right to me. Murton should get every at-bat against left-handed starters. That should be somewhere around 200 PA right there. If he gets even 1/3 of the starts aginst right-handed starters, then that would put him at 350, and pinch-hitting and double switches could probably push him up to 400. Jones ends up getting the most at-bats because he is the only one reliable enough to play RF right now (I hope that Murton gets out there and gets acclimated quickly to RF so Murton and Floyd can play against some lefties, I don't want to see Floyd in RF at all), and Floyd takes the rest of the right handed at-bats from Murton and a few of the left-handed bats from Jones.

 

I know many of you hate this practice, but history against certain pitchers might dictate some of the matchups. I don't mind it in a situation like this when the players are likely to be similarly productive anyway (although in different ways)-it's bad when you start Blanco over Barrett because of it, but I think it can be helpful in deciding between similar players for that day. I can also see Lou changing his lineup based on which way the wind is blowing at Wrigley.

 

I agree. I think Lou is intellegent enough to be able to adapt and put the best team out there for success.

[CuseCubFan69]

I sure hope Jones doesn't get the most AB's. I'm still holding out hope that he'll sit the vast majority of the time against lefties. The recent quotes from Piniella about being open to platoons and about working out/using Theriot and DeRosa in the OF provide reason for a little optimism, IMO.

 

I have to admit that Lou has a better cast of players to pick from than Dusty did the last 2 years. That being said I think Lou will use his assets a heck of a lot better than Baker ever would and that's a big reason why I'm optimistic. I just hope that Theriot continues to progress and do what he did late last season.

[CubColtPacer]

I sure hope Jones doesn't get the most AB's. I'm still holding out hope that he'll sit the vast majority of the time against lefties. The recent quotes from Piniella about being open to platoons and about working out/using Theriot and DeRosa in the OF provide reason for a little optimism, IMO.

 

Even if Jones sits 80% of the time against left-handers (which I fully support and hopefully it's even more than that) he likely will still have the most-at bats because he has an advantage on the other two outfielders with starting against right-handers (Murton because he is right-handed, and Floyd because Floyd would be terrible defensively in RF). Even with Jones getting the most at-bats though, if they are sitting him against left-handers the Cubs outfield will be incredibly productive.

[David]

I sure hope Jones doesn't get the most AB's. I'm still holding out hope that he'll sit the vast majority of the time against lefties. The recent quotes from Piniella about being open to platoons and about working out/using Theriot and DeRosa in the OF provide reason for a little optimism, IMO.

 

Even if Jones sits 80% of the time against left-handers (which I fully support and hopefully it's even more than that) he likely will still have the most-at bats because he has an advantage on the other two outfielders with starting against right-handers (Murton because he is right-handed, and Floyd because Floyd would be terrible defensively in RF). Even with Jones getting the most at-bats though, if they are sitting him against left-handers the Cubs outfield will be incredibly productive.

 

Good point. I probably should've worded that better. I agree completely.

[CuseCubFan69]

I sure hope Jones doesn't get the most AB's. I'm still holding out hope that he'll sit the vast majority of the time against lefties. The recent quotes from Piniella about being open to platoons and about working out/using Theriot and DeRosa in the OF provide reason for a little optimism, IMO.

 

Even if Jones sits 80% of the time against left-handers (which I fully support and hopefully it's even more than that) he likely will still have the most-at bats because he has an advantage on the other two outfielders with starting against right-handers (Murton because he is right-handed, and Floyd because Floyd would be terrible defensively in RF). Even with Jones getting the most at-bats though, if they are sitting him against left-handers the Cubs outfield will be incredibly productive.

 

Jones has proved throughout his career he stinks against leftys and even though I think it's a nice thing for Lou to say he'll give him a shot I have to say Jones has already had his shot and I want the best team out there. I hope Lou is just trying to make Jones feel at ease and if Jones has a problem with it he has to swallow his pride and not be so delusional.

[CubinNY]

I sure hope Jones doesn't get the most AB's. I'm still holding out hope that he'll sit the vast majority of the time against lefties. The recent quotes from Piniella about being open to platoons and about working out/using Theriot and DeRosa in the OF provide reason for a little optimism, IMO.

 

Even if Jones sits 80% of the time against left-handers (which I fully support and hopefully it's even more than that) he likely will still have the most-at bats because he has an advantage on the other two outfielders with starting against right-handers (Murton because he is right-handed, and Floyd because Floyd would be terrible defensively in RF). Even with Jones getting the most at-bats though, if they are sitting him against left-handers the Cubs outfield will be incredibly productive.

 

I don't expect Jones to come close to the numbers he posted last year, except OBP.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=735&position=OF&page=0&type=full

 

Fangraphs also has an article on Big Z (not optimistic).

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/