**Speculation** Angels & Cubs

[Rob]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

But... but... the intangibles!

[Magnetic Curses]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

[USSoccer]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

[mg420]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

i find this very amusing. do you really believe you can hit professional pitching at any level let alone the major leauges?

[Soul]

Spectacular if you're the other team.

Why? Pierre played well for us and if he had a lineup last year he is numbers probably would have been much better.

 

I don't think it works to take Pierre's overall numbers and conclude he played well. It matters more to me what a player does when the team is still in contention, as opposed to garbage time.

 

Pierre was terrible in April and May, which is when this team still had a shot. In particular, he was horrid when Lee was still playing.

 

Plus his arm is the worst I've ever seen on a center fielder, bar none. It's truly amazing how atrocious he is throwing the baseball.

 

I'm not necessarily arguing for Pierre here, just asking a question. Would you say then that Ramirez had a bad year last year?

 

Understood. There are plenty of people who are down on Ramirez right now. I'm actually not very happy with the way he played when we really needed him. He may have had a good overall year statistically, but I do think there's something to the arguments that Ramirez failed when the team needed him most.

 

But, that said, he's a power bat and I've seen him hit great in the playoffs, on this team. And I know what this club went through to get a 3rd baseman that was decent.

[fromthestretch]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

i find this very amusing. do you really believe you can hit professional pitching at any level let alone the major leauges?

 

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hyperbole

[baseball7897]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

 

The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that.

[fromthestretch]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

 

The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that.

 

There's a big difference between 2003 Pierre and the 2005/2006 version of Pierre, not to mention the quality of his teammates during those seasons.

[baseball7897]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

I don't agree with that at all. So you're saying you should go to the plate with the mindset of pulling the ball every single time? That is a horrible approach to hitting. I dont know where, or who gave you that adivce, but that person probably never played baseball in his or her life. Certain situations in baseball need a certain type of approach at the plate. If you're going to the plate just trying to pull the ball everytime, there is a good chance you wont be playing baseball for most teams.

[fromthestretch]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

I don't agree with that at all. So you're saying you should go to the plate with the mindset of pulling the ball every single time? That is a horrible approach to hitting. I dont know where, or who gave you that adivce, but that person probably never played baseball in his or her life. Certain situations in baseball need a certain type of approach at the plate. If you're going to the plate just trying to pull the ball everytime, there is a good chance you wont be playing baseball for most teams.

 

Maybe I'm misreading, but I see nothing in his post about pulling the ball. It is possible to hit the ball hard the opposite way. I think what Sulley is saying is that the hitter's approach should be to get a pitch that he can hit hard and put a good swing on it. Even if you don't have the power to put up decent home run totals, you should still try to get a pitch that you can drive hard somewhere. A hard hit ball has a better chance of getting through than an average grounder.

 

And to be honest, I think Pierre got him self into trouble by trying to pull the ball sometimes. He was rolling over on pitches he should have been lining the other way. Instead, he ends up grounding to second regularly.

[USSoccer]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

 

The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that.

 

Beckett

Penny

Willis

Lowell

Castillo

Lee

Cabrera.

 

 

That's 7 players that had more to do with than win than Pierre did.

[USSoccer]

 

I don't agree with that at all. So you're saying you should go to the plate with the mindset of pulling the ball every single time? That is a horrible approach to hitting. I dont know where, or who gave you that adivce, but that person probably never played baseball in his or her life. Certain situations in baseball need a certain type of approach at the plate. If you're going to the plate just trying to pull the ball everytime, there is a good chance you wont be playing baseball for most teams.

 

Driving the baseball does not mean pulling a baseball.

[CuseCubFan69]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

 

The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that.

 

Beckett

Penny

Willis

Lowell

Castillo

Lee

Cabrera.

 

 

That's 7 players that had more to do with than win than Pierre did.

 

Wow, you forgot Pudge.

[USSoccer]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

 

The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that.

 

Beckett

Penny

Willis

Lowell

Castillo

Lee

Cabrera.

 

 

That's 7 players that had more to do with than win than Pierre did.

 

Wow, you forgot Pudge.

 

I knew I was missing someone.

[Rob]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.

 

And will likely help a team lose.

 

The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that.

 

Would you agree with me that Andy Fox (70 G, 120 PA, 21 H, 12 R, 8 RBI, 0 HR, 1 SB, 2 CS for a batting line of .194/.269/.259) was probably detrimental to the chances of the Marlins winning it all in 2003?

 

If you can't agree to that, of course, you should lose any degree of credibility you have.

 

If you can agree to it, however, you are admitting that it is quite possible for teams to win despite the contributions of some people. In that case, isn't it theoretically possible that the Marlins won despite Pierre, not because of him?

 

Saying, "The 2003 Florida Marlins might have something to say about that," while we are talking about individual performance means very little... if anything at all. Hell, I could pull that line out when discussing Andy Fox. Basically, all it means is... nothing.

 

I hardly mean to pick on you, but a pet peeve of mine is empty rhetoric. I simply mean to point out that isolating his individual performance is a much better measure of making arguments.

 

That all being said, Juan Pierre was worth nearly 5 wins over a quadruple A replacement CF (WARP1 of 4.8). For as much money as he was making then, I find it extremely unlikely that he actively hindered the chances of the 2003 Marlins winning it all... though I'm not quite sure how much he may have helped. And he was certainly less valuable than the CPatt/Lofton combo we had that year.

[BigbadB]

To be fair, Pierre was not a worthless ballplayer in 2003. As a lead off man, he got on base at a very respectable clip. He has trended downwards since then. His walk rate has plummeted and he won't always hit .300, which really drags on the production he provides.

[Magnetic Curses]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

I don't agree with that at all. So you're saying you should go to the plate with the mindset of pulling the ball every single time? That is a horrible approach to hitting. I dont know where, or who gave you that adivce, but that person probably never played baseball in his or her life. Certain situations in baseball need a certain type of approach at the plate. If you're going to the plate just trying to pull the ball everytime, there is a good chance you wont be playing baseball for most teams.

 

you're joking right? i'm wondering where i said anything about "pulling the ball every single time". i'm not sure where you came to equate "driving the ball" with "pulling the ball" but that leads me to believe you may have never played baseball in your life.

[Magnetic Curses]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

i find this very amusing. do you really believe you can hit professional pitching at any level let alone the major leauges?

 

i may be able to hit in the major "leauges".

[mg420]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

i find this very amusing. do you really believe you can hit professional pitching at any level let alone the major leauges?

 

i may be able to hit in the major "leauges".

 

what color is the sky in your world?

[Magnetic Curses]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

 

completely agree, pierre is just a guy.

 

someone once pointed out to me that pierre doesn't walk because pitchers generally go after him because they don't want him on base. well, if he could hit for any power whatsoever, maybe he could burn pitchers for throwing him meatballs.

 

some of the pitches that were thrown to pierre last year, i could have hit out of the park, there's no excuse for beating them into the ground like he did.

 

too many people learn all they need to know about baseball from the movie "Major League" and insist that fast players hit ground balls and try to leg out hits. if you're a major league player, you should be trying to drive the ball every single time up, no matter the situation, no matter your place in the order, no matter how much speed you have. when you aren't trying to drive the ball, you're cheating yourself and your team and ultimately driving down final production numbers. this is no more evident than in a player like juan pierre.

 

i find this very amusing. do you really believe you can hit professional pitching at any level let alone the major leauges?

 

i may be able to hit in the major "leauges".

 

what color is the sky in your world?

 

did you catch the quotations or are you just not getting the joke?

[rchap24]

Well guys all of your points are noted. I just don't competely agree that he is horrible he was good before 2004, since then he has been mediocre. Thats my personal opinion. sorry I havent gotten back to the board the last day or two, but were having a snow day at school today its pretty sweet.

[BigbadB]

Well guys all of your points are noted. I just don't competely agree that he is horrible he was good before 2004, since then he has been mediocre. Thats my personal opinion. sorry I havent gotten back to the board the last day or two, but were having a snow day at school today its pretty sweet.

 

I'd give him mediocre status with his .330 OBP if he had something of value to offer other than speed. He doesn't, therefore he's horrible. Poor routes to fly balls, weenie arm, no power and gets caught stealing way too much for my liking. All told, horrible is a pretty good definition.

 

He wasn't always horrible. He was serviceable in 2003 and 2004. Mediocre would be another good terminology.

 

LA can have him and he won't be missed. If he wore #43, it would be a thing of beauty.

[rchap24]

Well guys all of your points are noted. I just don't competely agree that he is horrible he was good before 2004, since then he has been mediocre. Thats my personal opinion. sorry I havent gotten back to the board the last day or two, but were having a snow day at school today its pretty sweet.

 

I'd give him mediocre status with his .330 OBP if he had something of value to offer other than speed. He doesn't, therefore he's horrible. Poor routes to fly balls, weenie arm, no power and gets caught stealing way too much for my liking. All told, horrible is a pretty good definition.

 

He wasn't always horrible. He was serviceable in 2003 and 2004. Mediocre would be another good terminology.

 

LA can have him and he won't be missed. If he wore #43, it would be a thing of beauty.

 

I also don't mind not having him, but in an ideal situation I would want a better leadoff hitter than Soriano thats all im saying. I would be willing to drop Jones if we could get a guy like lofton even though hes old to play center be good defensively and could make room for Soriano back later in the order for some more pop.

[UK1679666180]

 

I don't agree with that at all. So you're saying you should go to the plate with the mindset of pulling the ball every single time? That is a horrible approach to hitting. I dont know where, or who gave you that adivce, but that person probably never played baseball in his or her life. Certain situations in baseball need a certain type of approach at the plate. If you're going to the plate just trying to pull the ball everytime, there is a good chance you wont be playing baseball for most teams.

 

Driving the baseball does not mean pulling a baseball.

 

It's all semantics...

 

The #1 goal of a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit and make solid contact according to most situations, to Sully that is what he probably equates to his definition of driving the ball. To baseball7897, it probably means something else. Of course, I don't take what Sully said at absolute value as if you're Ted Lilly and Barrett is on 2nd with no outs, he better bunt him over as it'll most likely be more successful than trying to drive the ball.

[Magnetic Curses]

 

I don't agree with that at all. So you're saying you should go to the plate with the mindset of pulling the ball every single time? That is a horrible approach to hitting. I dont know where, or who gave you that adivce, but that person probably never played baseball in his or her life. Certain situations in baseball need a certain type of approach at the plate. If you're going to the plate just trying to pull the ball everytime, there is a good chance you wont be playing baseball for most teams.

 

Driving the baseball does not mean pulling a baseball.

 

It's all semantics...

 

The #1 goal of a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit and make solid contact according to most situations, to Sully that is what he probably equates to his definition of driving the ball. To baseball7897, it probably means something else. Of course, I don't take what Sully said at absolute value as if you're Ted Lilly and Barrett is on 2nd with no outs, he better bunt him over as it'll most likely be more successful than trying to drive the ball.

 

i'll amend my views for those who aren't good at hitting and would be better served making the eventual out they'd make anyway a productive one.

 

it's my opinion that the only one who should ever sac bunt is the pitcher, or neifi perez.