**Speculation** Angels & Cubs

[rchap24]

Guys be careful hoping for this to materialize. If anything it'll probably be Jacque Jones for Chone Figgins.

 

I wouldnt mind Figgins! I know he is overrated, but he would give us a actual leadoff hitter. We could make Soriano our 5th hitter where I think he actually should be and Figgins also would be ten times better than Soriano or Pie in center.

[Mephistopheles]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

[rchap24]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

[Mephistopheles]

Spectacular if you're the other team.

[snoodmonger]

Spectacular if you're the other team.

 

:lol:

[rchap24]

Spectacular if you're the other team.

Why? Pierre played well for us and if he had a lineup last year he is numbers probably would have been much better.

[Mephistopheles]

um, that wouldn't exactly affect the numbers that showed he sucked.

[rchap24]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

[fromthestretch]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

His .330 OBP in 2006 and .326 OBP in 2005 are terrible for hitter that is expected to set the table for the middle of the order. Also, considering his speed, he gets caught stealing quite a bit. He has no power to speak of, which wouldn't be a problem if he was getting on base at a higher rate and not running himself into so many outs.

[Mark Priors Calves]

i like the potential in this thread.

[CuseCubFan69]

If Soriano makes the move to CF and does well I'd have no problem trading Pie and others for Wood if he is as good as many on here say he is. The only thing that bugs me about my statement is how old Soriano is and how long he could handle CF which is 3 maybe 4 years tops IMO. Ok, so I have one problem with it!

[rchap24]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

His .330 OBP in 2006 and .326 OBP in 2005 are terrible for hitter that is expected to set the table for the middle of the order. Also, considering his speed, he gets caught stealing quite a bit. He has no power to speak of, which wouldn't be a problem if he was getting on base at a higher rate and not running himself into so many outs.

 

Ok I didnt deny that his last two years were his best first off! Secondly not every person in baseball needs to have power to succeed in the Major Leagues Pierre has gotten by for like the last 8 years. Lastly he might get caught stealing a bit but he also led the national leagues in stolen bases so he was safe a few times I would think. I know hes not the ideal leadoff hitter, but neither is Soriano! I know Soriano had 40/40 last year, but he should be a 4 or 5 hitter and not a leadoff hitter because besides last year his OBP was to high. He also is a decent corner outfeilder I think he would be terrible in center. Im not praising Pierre, but hes one of the better leadoff hitters out there and put him on a team with Derosa 2nd, Lee 3rd, Soriano 4th, and Rameriez 5th, thats a pretty damn good lineup.

[rchap24]

Oh I also forgot to mention led the NL with hits last year so he got on base. He wasn't great dont get me wrong, but him leadoff in the line-up I just mentioned would be pretty good.

[Soul]

Spectacular if you're the other team.

Why? Pierre played well for us and if he had a lineup last year he is numbers probably would have been much better.

 

I don't think it works to take Pierre's overall numbers and conclude he played well. It matters more to me what a player does when the team is still in contention, as opposed to garbage time.

 

Pierre was terrible in April and May, which is when this team still had a shot. In particular, he was horrid when Lee was still playing.

 

Plus his arm is the worst I've ever seen on a center fielder, bar none. It's truly amazing how atrocious he is throwing the baseball.

[BigbadB]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

When you can predict the outcome of an at bat 7 times out of 10, the player you are referring to is pretty bad. And I wasn't referring to just predicting whether he makes an out or not, but rather where he makes his out.

 

For what Pierre offered at 6m, I'd rather have Alex Sanchez for less than a million. .280 for a lead off hitter would be good if they had an OBP of .350+ to go with it. Pierre's .330 is not good enough, and tack on the 20 times he got himself out attempting to steal, and it's even worse.

 

Pierre really only has 1 skill. Speed. After his speed, there is very little to get excited about.

[CubColtPacer]

Spectacular if you're the other team.

Why? Pierre played well for us and if he had a lineup last year he is numbers probably would have been much better.

 

I don't think it works to take Pierre's overall numbers and conclude he played well. It matters more to me what a player does when the team is still in contention, as opposed to garbage time.

 

Pierre was terrible in April and May, which is when this team still had a shot. In particular, he was horrid when Lee was still playing.

 

Plus his arm is the worst I've ever seen on a center fielder, bar none. It's truly amazing how atrocious he is throwing the baseball.

 

I'm not necessarily arguing for Pierre here, just asking a question. Would you say then that Ramirez had a bad year last year?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Oh I also forgot to mention led the NL with hits last year so he got on base. He wasn't great dont get me wrong, but him leadoff in the line-up I just mentioned would be pretty good.

 

.330 OBP last season.

[rchap24]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

When you can predict the outcome of an at bat 7 times out of 10, the player you are referring to is pretty bad. And I wasn't referring to just predicting whether he makes an out or not, but rather where he makes his out.

 

For what Pierre offered at 6m, I'd rather have Alex Sanchez for less than a million. .280 for a lead off hitter would be good if they had an OBP of .350+ to go with it. Pierre's .330 is not good enough, and tack on the 20 times he got himself out attempting to steal, and it's even worse.

 

Pierre really only has 1 skill. Speed. After his speed, there is very little to get excited about.

 

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

[fromthestretch]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

His .330 OBP in 2006 and .326 OBP in 2005 are terrible for hitter that is expected to set the table for the middle of the order. Also, considering his speed, he gets caught stealing quite a bit. He has no power to speak of, which wouldn't be a problem if he was getting on base at a higher rate and not running himself into so many outs.

 

Ok I didnt deny that his last two years were his best first off! Secondly not every person in baseball needs to have power to succeed in the Major Leagues Pierre has gotten by for like the last 8 years.

 

If you'd read my post, I never said he needed power to succeed. However, his lack of power gets magnified when he's not doing what he's paid to do: get on base and use his speed. He has nothing else to fall back on. His speed is worthless if he's not on base often enough to use it. And I wouldn't exactly say he's gotten by for eight seasons. He's had three pretty lousy seasons in his career, including the last two.

 

Lastly he might get caught stealing a bit but he also led the national leagues in stolen bases so he was safe a few times I would think. I know hes not the ideal leadoff hitter, but neither is Soriano! I know Soriano had 40/40 last year, but he should be a 4 or 5 hitter and not a leadoff hitter because besides last year his OBP was to high. He also is a decent corner outfeilder I think he would be terrible in center. Im not praising Pierre, but hes one of the better leadoff hitters out there

 

I'm not going to argue your point about Soriano, because in a perfect world, he would be batting somewhere around fifth in the order instead of first. As for defense, we have no way of knowing how he'll adjust to playing center until he actually plays it. With his speed and athleticism, he could end up being decent out there.

 

Despite your claims, Pierre is not one of the best leadoff hitters out there. Since he's proven to be allergic to the base on balls, he pretty much needs to hit around .310 to get his OBP to a respectable level for a leadoff guy. And the fact that he's getting thrown out on over 25% of his stolen base attempts doesn't help.

 

and put him on a team with Derosa 2nd, Lee 3rd, Soriano 4th, and Rameriez 5th, thats a pretty damn good lineup.

 

Unless Pierre can revert back to his 2003 or 2004 form, the Cubs are better off without him and his bloated contract.

[rocket]

 

Ok I didnt deny that his last two years were his best first off! Secondly not every person in baseball needs to have power to succeed in the Major Leagues Pierre has gotten by for like the last 8 years. Lastly he might get caught stealing a bit but he also led the national leagues in stolen bases so he was safe a few times I would think. I know hes not the ideal leadoff hitter, but neither is Soriano! I know Soriano had 40/40 last year, but he should be a 4 or 5 hitter and not a leadoff hitter because besides last year his OBP was to high. He also is a decent corner outfeilder I think he would be terrible in center. Im not praising Pierre, but hes one of the better leadoff hitters out there and put him on a team with Derosa 2nd, Lee 3rd, Soriano 4th, and Rameriez 5th, thats a pretty damn good lineup.

 

First thing, Juan Pierre didn't lead the NL in stolen bases, Jose Reyes did. (And Jose Reyes got caught less too!) And another thing, there shouldn't be such a thing as "leadoff" hitter. It's not a position. And even if it was, Juan Pierre is not a good one. He does not get on base at a good enough rate. Neither does Soriano (last year notwithstanding), but compensates for a lot of it by hitting for power.

 

I'd take Soriano/Derosa/Lee/Ramirez/Jones over Pierre/Derosa/Lee/Ramirez/Soriano any day of the week.

[fromthestretch]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

When you can predict the outcome of an at bat 7 times out of 10, the player you are referring to is pretty bad. And I wasn't referring to just predicting whether he makes an out or not, but rather where he makes his out.

 

For what Pierre offered at 6m, I'd rather have Alex Sanchez for less than a million. .280 for a lead off hitter would be good if they had an OBP of .350+ to go with it. Pierre's .330 is not good enough, and tack on the 20 times he got himself out attempting to steal, and it's even worse.

 

Pierre really only has 1 skill. Speed. After his speed, there is very little to get excited about.

 

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

 

I was sitting in a bar with a friend this summer watching the Cubs/Padres game on May 6. Everytime Pierre came up, I said "he's going to hit it to the second baseman." I was right three times in five at-bats.

[rchap24]

what numbers did he have that sucked. I really don't understand your reasoning for saying that. When I think of someone who sucks it's a player that is terrible and doesn't play that much and is just sucks. Pierre however had an offseason and still batted around .280 I know he is spectacular, but he is good espically in a strong line-up.

 

His .330 OBP in 2006 and .326 OBP in 2005 are terrible for hitter that is expected to set the table for the middle of the order. Also, considering his speed, he gets caught stealing quite a bit. He has no power to speak of, which wouldn't be a problem if he was getting on base at a higher rate and not running himself into so many outs.

 

Ok I didnt deny that his last two years were his best first off! Secondly not every person in baseball needs to have power to succeed in the Major Leagues Pierre has gotten by for like the last 8 years.

 

If you'd read my post, I never said he needed power to succeed. However, his lack of power gets magnified when he's not doing what he's paid to do: get on base and use his speed. He has nothing else to fall back on. His speed is worthless if he's not on base often enough to use it. And I wouldn't exactly say he's gotten by for eight seasons. He's had three pretty lousy seasons in his career, including the last two.

 

Lastly he might get caught stealing a bit but he also led the national leagues in stolen bases so he was safe a few times I would think. I know hes not the ideal leadoff hitter, but neither is Soriano! I know Soriano had 40/40 last year, but he should be a 4 or 5 hitter and not a leadoff hitter because besides last year his OBP was to high. He also is a decent corner outfeilder I think he would be terrible in center. Im not praising Pierre, but hes one of the better leadoff hitters out there

 

I'm not going to argue your point about Soriano, because in a perfect world, he would be batting somewhere around fifth in the order instead of first. As for defense, we have no way of knowing how he'll adjust to playing center until he actually plays it. With his speed and athleticism, he could end up being decent out there.

 

Despite your claims, Pierre is not one of the best leadoff hitters out there. Since he's proven to be allergic to the base on balls, he pretty much needs to hit around .310 to get his OBP to a respectable level for a leadoff guy. And the fact that he's getting thrown out on over 25% of his stolen base attempts doesn't help.

 

and put him on a team with Derosa 2nd, Lee 3rd, Soriano 4th, and Rameriez 5th, thats a pretty damn good lineup.

 

Unless Pierre can revert back to his 2003 or 2004 form, the Cubs are better off without him and his bloated contract.

 

The one thing I agree with you is I don't want his contract either its way to much for him. However unless I'm wrong Figgins and Lofton are making significantly lower which I would be willing to pay for. I wish we would have signed lofton!!!!!!!

[David]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

 

Nobody and Pierre could add up to spectacular. Not even ARod and Pierre, or Pujols and Pierre.

[rchap24]

 

Ok I didnt deny that his last two years were his best first off! Secondly not every person in baseball needs to have power to succeed in the Major Leagues Pierre has gotten by for like the last 8 years. Lastly he might get caught stealing a bit but he also led the national leagues in stolen bases so he was safe a few times I would think. I know hes not the ideal leadoff hitter, but neither is Soriano! I know Soriano had 40/40 last year, but he should be a 4 or 5 hitter and not a leadoff hitter because besides last year his OBP was to high. He also is a decent corner outfeilder I think he would be terrible in center. Im not praising Pierre, but hes one of the better leadoff hitters out there and put him on a team with Derosa 2nd, Lee 3rd, Soriano 4th, and Rameriez 5th, thats a pretty damn good lineup.

 

First thing, Juan Pierre didn't lead the NL in stolen bases, Jose Reyes did. (And Jose Reyes got caught less too!) And another thing, there shouldn't be such a thing as "leadoff" hitter. It's not a position. And even if it was, Juan Pierre is not a good one. He does not get on base at a good enough rate. Neither does Soriano (last year notwithstanding), but compensates for a lot of it by hitting for power.

 

I'd take Soriano/Derosa/Lee/Ramirez/Jones over Pierre/Derosa/Lee/Ramirez/Soriano any day of the week.

 

Why? you have everyone at the true spots in a perfect line-up Jaque Jones is not a great 5th hitter. Don't get me wrong he played great last year, but Rameriez is an ideal 5th hitter.

[BigbadB]

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

 

There are typically 3 results to a Juan Pierre at bat. Ground out to the 2b, ground out to the SS. Ball gets past one of the SS or the 2b.

Edited February 12, 2007 by BigbadB