Starting Verlander

[Mark_R]

Well I'm glad at least the childish factor has been raised by both sides here.

[soccer10k]

Weaver is such a good pitcher, it didn't matter who the Tigers would've started.

 

Time to grow up. You're sounding like an immature high school student. Someone who you just want to punch in the face.

 

I thought CubsBullsBears got banned already. Apparently not.

 

I dont know what I did to be even considered to be banned? Someone has been pushing my buttons over something really stupid. Maybe if that source would stop, I would stop. He is the one bringing up the Weaver thing in seemingly every thread now.

 

Because you are saying you want to punch Vance in the face.

 

Well, I just find it annoying that he would continue to bring up the whole Weaver subject. Its over with. Just drop it.

 

When somebody (and by somebody I mean you) is so obviously wrong and yet refuses to admit they are wrong, it is hard to drop. Either way, you don't say you want to punch another poster.

 

How was I wrong? I am just asking you. I am not trying to push this subject any further. All I said was Weaver was a better pitcher in the post-season than Verlander was, and I would have taken Weaver over Verlander in the playoffs. The way Verlander was pitching in the playoffs, I would have taken alot of other guys over him too. It was just my opinion. I dont see how I could be wrong if that's my judgement.

 

You were right in that aspect but anybody could have looked at the stats before Game 5 and seen that Jeff Weaver had pitched better than Justin Verlander in the 2006 postseason. That's not the issue that people, including myself, have taken exception to. It's the fact that going into the postseason, nobody would have taken Jeff Weaver over Justin Verlander. Nobody. Jeff Weaver sucked this year and was even DFA because of it. He also had no success in the postseason before 2006 (not that 8.1 innings is a good barometer anyway). So there is no evidence out there to show that Jeff Weaver was going to pitch well this postseason.

 

Then you went and said that because of his success in the 2006 postseason, you said that he is a good pitcher which is absolutely ludicrous and wrong. Five postseason starts do not make or break a pitcher. It's called sample size and is basic statistics. He's made 240 starts in his career and has a career ERA+ of 96 which is bad. Three out of the last 4 years he's had an ERA+ under 100, which means he is worse than the league average. His WHIP this year was 1.51. The guy is, flat out, not a good pitcher. And that is what you don't seem to be able to grasp.

[baseball7897]

Weaver is such a good pitcher, it didn't matter who the Tigers would've started.

 

Time to grow up. You're sounding like an immature high school student. Someone who you just want to punch in the face.

 

I thought CubsBullsBears got banned already. Apparently not.

 

I dont know what I did to be even considered to be banned? Someone has been pushing my buttons over something really stupid. Maybe if that source would stop, I would stop. He is the one bringing up the Weaver thing in seemingly every thread now.

 

Because you are saying you want to punch Vance in the face.

 

Well, I just find it annoying that he would continue to bring up the whole Weaver subject. Its over with. Just drop it.

 

When somebody (and by somebody I mean you) is so obviously wrong and yet refuses to admit they are wrong, it is hard to drop. Either way, you don't say you want to punch another poster.

 

How was I wrong? I am just asking you. I am not trying to push this subject any further. All I said was Weaver was a better pitcher in the post-season than Verlander was, and I would have taken Weaver over Verlander in the playoffs. The way Verlander was pitching in the playoffs, I would have taken alot of other guys over him too. It was just my opinion. I dont see how I could be wrong if that's my judgement.

 

You were right in that aspect but anybody could have looked at the stats before Game 5 and seen that Jeff Weaver had pitched better than Justin Verlander in the 2006 postseason. That's not the issue that people, including myself, have taken exception to. It's the fact that going into the postseason, nobody would have taken Jeff Weaver over Justin Verlander. Nobody. Jeff Weaver sucked this year and was even DFA because of it. He also had no success in the postseason before 2006 (not that 8.1 innings is a good barometer anyway). So there is no evidence out there to show that Jeff Weaver was going to pitch well this postseason.

 

Then you went and said that because of his success in the 2006 postseason, you said that he is a good pitcher which is absolutely ludicrous and wrong. Five postseason starts do not make or break a pitcher. It's called sample size and is basic statistics. He's made 240 starts in his career and has a career ERA+ of 96 which is bad. Three out of the last 4 years he's had an ERA+ under 100, which means he is worse than the league average. His WHIP this year was 1.51. The guy is, flat out, not a good pitcher. And that is what you don't seem to be able to grasp.

 

Weaver just had a horrible year in 06. He was a good pitcher with the Dodgers. He wasnt the staff ace for them, but he didnt have to be. He would be a good 5th starter if he could return to his Dodger form. I believe he can return to that form. He had very little confidence this year, and his stats showed that. He has regained his confidence he had with the Dodgers. If you dont have confidence in yourself to do the task at hand, you're not going to be successful.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Weaver's best year with the Dodgers he had 103 ERA+, so he was barely above average. In his other year with the Dodgers, he had an ERA of 96, which means he was below average. Even if he returns to his Dodger form, he's an average pitcher at best. That's not good...that's average.

[soccer10k]

Weaver just had a horrible year in 06. He was a good pitcher with the Dodgers. He wasnt the staff ace for them, but he didnt have to be. He would be a good 5th starter if he could return to his Dodger form. I believe he can return to that form. He had very little confidence this year, and his stats showed that. He has regained his confidence he had with the Dodgers. If you dont have confidence in yourself to do the task at hand, you're not going to be successful.

 

I don't really care if a pitcher has all the confidence in the world if he doesn't have the talent. I don't believe Jeff Weaver has talent and I don't want him in a Cubs uniform ever. You can go ahead and like players based on the amount of confidence you perceive them to have but I'm going to stick to the stats to tell me which players I want to sign. You also must factor in that, because of the 2006 postseason, Weaver is likely to command much more money than what he is actually worth.

[rocket]

OK GUYS KNOCK IT OFF

[wolf stansson]

Weaver just had a horrible year in 06. He was a good pitcher with the Dodgers. He wasnt the staff ace for them, but he didnt have to be. He would be a good 5th starter if he could return to his Dodger form. I believe he can return to that form. He had very little confidence this year, and his stats showed that. He has regained his confidence he had with the Dodgers. If you dont have confidence in yourself to do the task at hand, you're not going to be successful.

So you're saying a pitcher who has survived little league, legion ball, college ball, the minor leagues, and years in the majors has suddenly lost his self confidence?

 

Or does it have something more to do with Dave Duncan noticing flaws in his mechanics that decreased not only downward movement on his fastball, but significant break on his slider?

[UK1679666180]

So you're saying a pitcher who has survived little league, legion ball, college ball, the minor leagues, and years in the majors has suddenly lost his self confidence?

 

Or does it have something more to do with Dave Duncan noticing flaws in his mechanics that decreased not only downward movement on his fastball, but significant break on his slider?

 

It was probably both. He needed work mentally and mechanically. He's never had the stuff, location, and intelligence on the mound to be anything above a 3-4-5 starter.

[baseball7897]

Weaver just had a horrible year in 06. He was a good pitcher with the Dodgers. He wasnt the staff ace for them, but he didnt have to be. He would be a good 5th starter if he could return to his Dodger form. I believe he can return to that form. He had very little confidence this year, and his stats showed that. He has regained his confidence he had with the Dodgers. If you dont have confidence in yourself to do the task at hand, you're not going to be successful.

So you're saying a pitcher who has survived little league, legion ball, college ball, the minor leagues, and years in the majors has suddenly lost his self confidence?

 

Or does it have something more to do with Dave Duncan noticing flaws in his mechanics that decreased not only downward movement on his fastball, but significant break on his slider?

 

Its pretty easy to lose your confidence if hitter's are smashing the ball off of you.

[Geech]

Its pretty easy to lose your confidence if hitter's are smashing the ball off of you.

 

So his lost confidence was a result of his poor performance rather than a cause?

[UK1679666180]

Its pretty easy to lose your confidence if hitter's are smashing the ball off of you.

 

So his lost confidence was a result of his poor performance rather than a cause?

 

I think it was, but what caused his poor performance is the better question? I think it was mechanics, too many pitches (FB, SL, CB, CH, Cutter), physical fatigue, and a below avg. 4 seam FB.

[wolf stansson]

a below avg. 4 seam FB.

What do you mean by this? Location? Movement?

 

He has been hitting 93-94 since we traded for him. That's not below average.

[UK1679666180]

It's always been low to mid 90s, but it's straight and he misses his spots. It's a good show me pitch to adjust a hitter's timing, but if a hitter's looks for it and Weaver misses, it'll be hit hard. He's better with a sinker.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

What's clear is that for the past few years, Weaver hasn't been good. Any team that signs him will have to wonder has he turned a corner under Duncan's tuteledge or was this simply a string of good starts? Given his career numbers, I'm more inclined to believe the latter. It is possible that I'm wrong. But until he shows otherwise, it is clear that Weaver hasn't been a good pitcher.

[wolf stansson]

I don't want him back btw.

[Andy]

I don't want him back btw.

And since your GM is not an idiot, you probably won't get him back. Hendry on the other hand would sign him to a 4 year deal thinking he had a diamond.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

What's clear is that for the past few years, Weaver hasn't been good. Any team that signs him will have to wonder has he turned a corner under Duncan's tuteledge or was this simply a string of good starts? Given his career numbers, I'm more inclined to believe the latter. It is possible that I'm wrong. But until he shows otherwise, it is clear that Weaver hasn't been a good pitcher.

 

Let's not also forget that Weaver was decidedly below average as a Cardinal before the playoffs.