Still not happy that Baker was let go.

[J.R.]

JR wrote: "Ridiculous post".

 

I ask you, what's wrong in someone stating their opinion. There might not be that many of us, but I'm not the only one on this board that liked Baker. Do you disagree that Jim Hendry deserves a fair amount of blame for the Cubs demise? And besides, we don't criticize you for all of the silly posts, that you have made.

 

Who's "we?"

 

Sure, Big Jim f'd up. However, the fact that there's a moron in back is no excuse for the buffoonery up front.

[rickrolled]

I tried to read the entire original post, but streams of blood started squirting out of my nose about halfway through.

[Balsa]

Funny that you mention it Billy, I remember hearing the WGN post-final game podcast, talking to Juan Pierre, and he didn't sound like he liked the fans or the atmosphere here at all.

 

But then, he was in a slump half the season, a season which almost saw 100 losses. Big surprise that the atmosphere isn't great.

 

All the same, hopefully he holds out for something bigger than Jimbo will give him, I'd rather see someone else in CF next year who either makes less money or produces more than JP.

[Pinktermite]

I have to agree with sweet swinging billy to an extent. It can NEVER be proven that Dusty caused the injuries to Prior and Wood. And there's no way that any of you guys on here can, either. In 2003 we had a bullpen that demanded Dusty get everything he could out of those two, and he rode them like the broken horses they became...and he may have contributed to their demise...or maybe not.

 

Kerry was injured far before last year...many times over. Prior hasn't pitched enough in the big leagues to make it a CLEAR guilty verdict on Dusty. Besides that, I would have done the same, and dealt with the consequences later on...

 

Be that as it may, Dusty had his chance...and is gone...but without a radical transformation of philosophy in this organization, they won't win next year either. Jim Hendry (and I say it again) is WAY more responsible for this train wreck than Dusty ever was...

[soccer10k]

-He let Zambrano pitch 120+ pitches almost every game even when the season was over

 

It really ticked me off that Dusty let Z go back out to pitch the 7th after already having thrown 110 pitches through 6 innings. He ended up with 128.

 

-He preached aggressivness at the plate. Which shows because the Cubs (someone back me up here) the Cubs were last in pitches per plate appearance in the league

 

The Cubs saw the third fewest P/PA in the ML this year ahead of only LAA and SF.

[Pinktermite]

I'm NOT making this argument, but is it possible that Dusty had NOTHING to do with this P/PA statistic? With Neifi, Ronnie, Juan, and others on this team, that it did nothing but balance out Todd Walker, Murton, Aramis, and a lack of DLee?

 

I suppose not, I'm just arguing that Dusty had less to do with this mess than Jim Hendry and bad fielding/fundamentals...which I guess negates my argument, since Dusty is responsible for such things.

 

Forget it, Dusty needed to go...and yeah, he's a nice guy. Please don't hire Pienella, Jim...PULEEEEEASE!!

[goonys evil twin]

This stuff cracks me up.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

Vance wrote: "Also, on Dusty's watch the 2004 team which had all the talent needed to win a World Series collapsed. Should he blamed for it? I don't know.

 

Sure, Dusty is a good man from what I can tell. There are lots of good people in baseball, but baseball is a production game. When you don't produce, you don't get to keep your job. This is true for playersl; this is true for management; this is true for front office personel.

 

I've never thought Dusty was anything but a good person. However, his team failed. When that happens, you will not be retained as a manager...especially when you are making four million as a manager".

 

---- Of all the responses to my original post, I think this one by Vance was the best. However Vance, in no way was I comparing Cub fans who are this board and wanted Baker to be fired to the Idiotic fans who threaten the life of the Manager and his players. All I wanted to do my voice my opinion, now I am content to move on. My choice for next manager is Torre or Girardi. Brenly is my third choice. With Hendry still as our GM, I agree with the poster, there's little chance that the Cubs fortunes, will change. I might be alone on this, but I do hope the Cubs can convine Pierre in resigning with the team. I love Juan's work ethic.

[goonys evil twin]

I might be alone on this, but I do hope the Cubs can convine Pierre in resigning with the team. I love Juan's work ethic.

 

This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders.

[USSoccer]

I might be alone on this, but I do hope the Cubs can convine Pierre in resigning with the team. I love Juan's work ethic.

 

This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders.

 

 

Someone should gild that quote and screw it to Jim Hendry's desk.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

There are no intangibles he brings to the table. The only thing that matters are tangible. Leading the league in hits is a worthless stat. All you have to do is play everyday at leadoff swing all the time and make some contact. Leadoff hitters get on base, and Pierre doesn't do that. It would be a terrible decision to resign him, but just another in a long list of poorly thought out, inefficient moves by this team.

[Lefty]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

And he led the league in outs made by a wide margin. Doesn't that negate some of the singles?

 

We have accurate formulas that assess the totality of offensive contributions. Pierre created about 90 runs in slightly less than 20 games. I'd offer him arb because I think he'd decline and I want the picks. But the production should not be hard to replace.

[Rob]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

Pierre has been basing his career on the faulty assumption that there's such a position as the leadoff man. Unfortunately, there isn't.

 

Pierre plays centerfield. Whether he's leading off or not, there's no debate that he plays centerfield. And for a centerfielder, he is not productive.

 

If you took below average production from every position in the field just because they fit some archaic mold of a lineup, you'd be a very bad team.

 

Personally, I'd rather take production first and cobble together a lineup second. I'd be far from upset if I had too many "#3 hitters" and had to put on of them in the leadoff spot.

[Sammy Sofa]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

He hits, but he hardly ever walks. His OBP will probably peak each year for the rest of his career around .330 at the most. For a lead off hitter, that's terrible.

 

He hits, but the amount of runs he drives in is hideous. He typically is the 1st batter of the inning only once in the game. Even a lead off hitter needs to have some pop.

 

Stolen bases are insanely overrated in this era of baseball. They can be useful, but they're hardly essential.

 

Pierre would be best as a #8 hitter at this point, not a #1.

[Pinktermite]

I thought this was a thread about Dusty?

 

Regardless, Juan Pierre is NOT as bad as he's made out to be, but he's not great, either...and signing him long term is a bad idea...

 

Please Jim, spare me another session of vomiting in the bathroom. I agree we should offer Juan Arb...hope he doesn't take it...and get the draft picks..

 

Andrew Jones and Arod people. Barry Zito and Jason Schmidt too...yeah, the payroll would jump what, 60 million bucks? They said they want to win, a payroll of 150 million is not out of the question...it won't happen...but that's what they need to do.

[goonys evil twin]

Regardless, Juan Pierre is NOT as bad as he's made out to be, but he's not great, either...

 

Depends on how bad you think he's made out to be. Career OPS+ of 86. It's been at 84 and 81 the past two years. He was at 98 and 107 in 2003 and 2004. He's a significantly below average player, most compared to Willie Wilson. Yet he's already paid significantly more than the average player, and is in-line to make a truckload more than the average player. And that's all because some baseball dinosaurs think leadoff is a position. I think he's a tolerable $2m 8 hitter on a quality team. But he's an awful leadoff hitter and terrible option for a long term contract.

[frostwyrm]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

And he led the league in outs made by a wide margin. Doesn't that negate some of the singles?

 

We have accurate formulas that assess the totality of offensive contributions. Pierre created about 90 runs in slightly less than 20 games. I'd offer him arb because I think he'd decline and I want the picks. But the production should not be hard to replace.

 

Where is a leaderboard for outs? I haven't been able to find one. I found the one that has the outs champ for each season, but I would like to see a list of leaders and not just the champ.

[Blizzau]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

As has been pointed out on NSBB, Pierre is not that great of a baserunner. He was caught stealing 20 times this year; he succeeded 58 times (74% success rate). This is consistent with his career average, as he has stolen 325 of 441 (74%). In order to "break even" - that is, to be be neither beneficial nor detrimental to your team as a baserunner - I believe a runner must average about 70%. (Hopefully another poster can provide the specific stat.)

 

He is a pretty good runner, but not efficient or productive enough to warrant a hefty contract.

 

When it comes to hits, of course he accumulates a lot of them batting leadoff and playing 162 games/year. However, he also gets out quite a bit. While his batting average is respectable, his on-base percentage is lacking. This year, he reached base at a .330 clip. His career average is .350 (a solid number), but he has been very inconsistent from year to year:

 

2000 .353

2001 .378

2002 .332

2003 .361

2004 .374

2005 .326

2006 .330

 

His most recent two years are alarming, and certainly not productive enough for a leadoff hitter. In comparison, Todd Walker had an OBP of .355 in 2005 with the Cubs, and .352 (Cubs) and .366 (Padres) this season. Walker's career OBP is .349, and he costs his team a fraction of the price Pierre does and will following his next contract.

 

As Pierre ages, his ability to run out scrappy hits presumably will decrease. That he offers no advantages on defense (except for speed) also does not justify his pricetag.

 

All this said, I like Pierre and his attitude. However, if the Cubs are looking at cost effective improvements in production, they should look elsewhere.

 

EDIT: Mods, can the Pierre talk be merged into its own thread?

[NewUserName]

Juan Pierre may be one of the most over-rated players in MLB. The reason Bill James is a Millionaire is because announcers and beat writers made guys like Juan Pierre out to be good players. He only has 2 good things going for him. His ability to get hits and steal bases. These 2 abilities are cancelled out by his inability to draw walks and his caught stealing. Also everytime I hear that he covers alot of ground in CF I just want to barf. He does cover alot of ground but it usually isnt in a straight line to the ball.

 

As for Dusty. I certainly agree that Dusty wasnt given the best of circumstances the last couple of years. What he could have done though is embrace the situation and at least tried to help build the team for the future. Instead he has impeded the development of younger players who actually do things like hit for power and get on base while playing either veterens or players who have more "tools". Worse of all pretty much saying he cannot win with young players. Yes he said it. So all that being said I agree that its was in the best interest of the Cubs to not resign him. I do agree that Hendry should also have been showed the door. I also think hiring Lou Piniella would only add to the future misery of the Cubs

[wastra]

Juan Pierre does NOTHING particularly well. NOTHING.

 

 

He's fast, but he's not a particularly good baserunner. He makes contact, but he's not a particularly good hitter. He's quick, but doesn't cover a particularly large amount of ground in center. He's a proto-typical Hendry guy...an athlete who isn't really all that good at baseball.

 

 

 

And if I have to read that he's valuable for leading the league in hits again, I'll puke. Maybe some people just don't understand what sabremetric stats MEAN, and that's why these gross stats get so much play on message boards. Let me put this in gross terms you don't have to read a Bill James book to understand (though I highly recommend it to all baseball fans):

 

He hit .290, not .340. Then man had 799 at bats. That's almost EIGHT HUNDRED. He reached base 234 times this year in roughly 834 plate appearances. The AVERAGE major league hitter (including PITCHERS, for goodness' sake) would have reached base 230 times in that many apearances.

 

If you took out pitchers and pinch hitters, how "average" would that be? If you took pitchers out of calculatign the average hitter in the NL, don't you think the "average" would make it on base 4 more times than with them included? And since he has less power than half the pitchers, the averag ehitter would have had a whole lot more total bases (more doubles, triples, homers), makign those times reaching base more productive.

 

Juan Pierre is a mediocre-at-best player who got far more opportunities at the plate than anyone else of his caliber. It's just that simple.

 

As for Dusty- he certainly didn't get a roster ready to conted for the NL crown, but I'm pretty darn sure the roster shouldn't have been as bad as it was this year, even with the injuries. Having a abd roster doesn't excuse Dusty for manglign that bad roster in total defiance of an sort of baseball common sense.

[CUBZ99]

Juan Pierre does NOTHING particularly well. NOTHING.

 

 

He's fast, but he's not a particularly good baserunner. He makes contact, but he's not a particularly good hitter. He's quick, but doesn't cover a particularly large amount of ground in center. He's a proto-typical Hendry guy...an athlete who isn't really all that good at baseball.

 

 

 

And if I have to read that he's valuable for leading the league in hits again, I'll puke. Maybe some people just don't understand what sabremetric stats MEAN, and that's why these gross stats get so much play on message boards. Let me put this in gross terms you don't have to read a Bill James book to understand (though I highly recommend it to all baseball fans):

 

He hit .290, not .340. Then man had 799 at bats. That's almost EIGHT HUNDRED. He reached base 234 times this year in roughly 834 plate appearances. The AVERAGE major league hitter (including PITCHERS, for goodness' sake) would have reached base 230 times in that many apearances.

 

If you took out pitchers and pinch hitters, how "average" would that be? If you took pitchers out of calculatign the average hitter in the NL, don't you think the "average" would make it on base 4 more times than with them included? And since he has less power than half the pitchers, the averag ehitter would have had a whole lot more total bases (more doubles, triples, homers), makign those times reaching base more productive.

 

Juan Pierre is a mediocre-at-best player who got far more opportunities at the plate than anyone else of his caliber. It's just that simple.

 

As for Dusty- he certainly didn't get a roster ready to conted for the NL crown, but I'm pretty darn sure the roster shouldn't have been as bad as it was this year, even with the injuries. Having a abd roster doesn't excuse Dusty for manglign that bad roster in total defiance of an sort of baseball common sense.

 

 

Wastra, I respect your opinion and I used to love reading your posts even back in the ESPN message board days, but better check your numbers again. Considering the real stats, It is ridiculous to say that average major league pitchers would have a .330 OBP over the course of 700 at bats. It just isn't realistic.

 

Pierre is not a great CF, but he has still put up a respectable career OBP of .350, he still has decent speed and he can still steal bases. The problem with your argument is that you are only acknowledging the negatives and spinning them by making his numbers worse than they actually are. I'm pretty sure that sabrmeterics do not MEAN that. :wink:

 

What I find funny is that the same people that will take Murton's second half numbers and use them to make the case that he is better/equal to Carlos Lee, will completely discount Pierre's numbers since June. Especially considering Pierre's career OBP was much higher than he was playing earlier in the season. If Pierre could revert back to his career OBP or sustain his sucess that he had from June through October, he would have some value to some team. Heck, he would even be a viable leadoff candidate.

[Lefty]

goony's evil twin wrote: "This team needs production more than it needs scrappers and grinders".

 

Yeah goony but didn't Pierre lead the NL in hits, and finished 2nd in steals? Despite having a weak arm, Juan still covers a lot of ground in CF. To me, he's a productive player. Maybe he's not driving in a lot of runs to suit you...but he's a lead-off man! We need to trade for and sign players, who are run producers, who will drive Juan in. There are other intangibles that Pierre brings to the table but these are some of the main points I wanted to make.

 

And he led the league in outs made by a wide margin. Doesn't that negate some of the singles?

 

We have accurate formulas that assess the totality of offensive contributions. Pierre created about 90 runs in slightly less than 20 games. I'd offer him arb because I think he'd decline and I want the picks. But the production should not be hard to replace.

 

Where is a leaderboard for outs? I haven't been able to find one. I found the one that has the outs champ for each season, but I would like to see a list of leaders and not just the champ.

 

Had to figure it out myself. Having analyzed stats to death in a past life, I can't imagine anyone even came close to Pierre.

[CubColtPacer]

Juan Pierre does NOTHING particularly well. NOTHING.

 

 

He's fast, but he's not a particularly good baserunner. He makes contact, but he's not a particularly good hitter. He's quick, but doesn't cover a particularly large amount of ground in center. He's a proto-typical Hendry guy...an athlete who isn't really all that good at baseball.

 

 

 

And if I have to read that he's valuable for leading the league in hits again, I'll puke. Maybe some people just don't understand what sabremetric stats MEAN, and that's why these gross stats get so much play on message boards. Let me put this in gross terms you don't have to read a Bill James book to understand (though I highly recommend it to all baseball fans):

 

He hit .290, not .340. Then man had 799 at bats. That's almost EIGHT HUNDRED. He reached base 234 times this year in roughly 834 plate appearances. The AVERAGE major league hitter (including PITCHERS, for goodness' sake) would have reached base 230 times in that many apearances.

 

If you took out pitchers and pinch hitters, how "average" would that be? If you took pitchers out of calculatign the average hitter in the NL, don't you think the "average" would make it on base 4 more times than with them included? And since he has less power than half the pitchers, the averag ehitter would have had a whole lot more total bases (more doubles, triples, homers), makign those times reaching base more productive.

 

Juan Pierre is a mediocre-at-best player who got far more opportunities at the plate than anyone else of his caliber. It's just that simple.

 

As for Dusty- he certainly didn't get a roster ready to conted for the NL crown, but I'm pretty darn sure the roster shouldn't have been as bad as it was this year, even with the injuries. Having a abd roster doesn't excuse Dusty for manglign that bad roster in total defiance of an sort of baseball common sense.

 

Without going into the rest of the post (which I agree with the spirit of, if not the intensity), Pierre had 699 AB's this year, not 799.

[CoolHandLuke]

Juan Pierre does NOTHING particularly well. NOTHING.

 

 

He's fast, but he's not a particularly good baserunner. He makes contact, but he's not a particularly good hitter. He's quick, but doesn't cover a particularly large amount of ground in center. He's a proto-typical Hendry guy...an athlete who isn't really all that good at baseball.

 

 

 

And if I have to read that he's valuable for leading the league in hits again, I'll puke. Maybe some people just don't understand what sabremetric stats MEAN, and that's why these gross stats get so much play on message boards. Let me put this in gross terms you don't have to read a Bill James book to understand (though I highly recommend it to all baseball fans):

 

He hit .290, not .340. Then man had 799 at bats. That's almost EIGHT HUNDRED. He reached base 234 times this year in roughly 834 plate appearances. The AVERAGE major league hitter (including PITCHERS, for goodness' sake) would have reached base 230 times in that many apearances.

 

If you took out pitchers and pinch hitters, how "average" would that be? If you took pitchers out of calculatign the average hitter in the NL, don't you think the "average" would make it on base 4 more times than with them included? And since he has less power than half the pitchers, the averag ehitter would have had a whole lot more total bases (more doubles, triples, homers), makign those times reaching base more productive.

 

Juan Pierre is a mediocre-at-best player who got far more opportunities at the plate than anyone else of his caliber. It's just that simple.

 

As for Dusty- he certainly didn't get a roster ready to conted for the NL crown, but I'm pretty darn sure the roster shouldn't have been as bad as it was this year, even with the injuries. Having a abd roster doesn't excuse Dusty for manglign that bad roster in total defiance of an sort of baseball common sense.

 

 

Wastra, I respect your opinion and I used to love reading your posts even back in the ESPN message board days, but better check your numbers again. Considering the real stats, It is ridiculous to say that average major league pitchers would have a .330 OBP over the course of 700 at bats. It just isn't realistic.

 

Pierre is not a great CF, but he has still put up a respectable career OBP of .350, he still has decent speed and he can still steal bases. The problem with your argument is that you are only acknowledging the negatives and spinning them by making his numbers worse than they actually are. I'm pretty sure that sabrmeterics do not MEAN that. :wink:

 

What I find funny is that the same people that will take Murton's second half numbers and use them to make the case that he is better/equal to Carlos Lee, will completely discount Pierre's numbers since June. Especially considering Pierre's career OBP was much higher than he was playing earlier in the season. If Pierre could revert back to his career OBP or sustain his sucess that he had from June through October, he would have some value to some team. Heck, he would even be a viable leadoff candidate.

 

That isn't even close to what he was saying. He just said that his average OBP for all players included pitchers, meaning that if you took the pitchers data out and recalculated the average times reached base then the number would be higher. Possibly higher than Juan Pierres.