What is people's fascination with Girardi about?

[sherwood921]

I didn't refer to any of the Marlins as "scrubs." In fact, I specifically went out of my way to say the opposite.

 

Ok, but what was the point of saying that managers can't turn a team of scrubs into a .500 ballclub in the Marlins weren't scrubs?

 

AA to the majors isn't unheard of, but it's difficult to do. Sean Marshall couldn't do it with good numbers. The sheer number of guys who did it last year for the Marlins is ridiculous. I don't deny that many of those guys were talented, but they weren't hyped as world beaters before.

 

Heard of King Felix? There's some context for you. He has more talent in his right arm than the whole Marlins staff does...or so people thought before the season started. Talent doesn't get you anywhere without the right direction - direction provided by the Marlins coaching staff.

 

Ever heard of Justin Verlander, Ryan Zimmerman and tons of other players I'm too lazy to look up? They never played AAA. In fact, many of them were top talent. I remember many people on this board especially praising Florida's moves because they got so many highly touted prospects. I disagree that talent doesn't get you anywhere without direction, just look at Matt Murton and Rich Hill. Do you think Dusty had anything to do with their success?

 

No one is saying Girardi did it all himself, but to deny him any credit in what the Marlins accomplished is ridiculous hating.

 

Again, I don't think anyone is denying him credit. I wouldn't be upset if Girardi became the manager of the Cubs. I am just skeptical that the reason the Marlins had a solid season was because of Joe's managing. The KC Royals had a pretty bad team in 2003, but Tony Pena led them to a 83-79 record in his first full year as manager. One year doesn't make a good manager.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I didn't refer to any of the Marlins as "scrubs." In fact, I specifically went out of my way to say the opposite.

 

Ok, but what was the point of saying that managers can't turn a team of scrubs into a .500 ballclub in the Marlins weren't scrubs?

 

AA to the majors isn't unheard of, but it's difficult to do. Sean Marshall couldn't do it with good numbers. The sheer number of guys who did it last year for the Marlins is ridiculous. I don't deny that many of those guys were talented, but they weren't hyped as world beaters before.

 

Heard of King Felix? There's some context for you. He has more talent in his right arm than the whole Marlins staff does...or so people thought before the season started. Talent doesn't get you anywhere without the right direction - direction provided by the Marlins coaching staff.

 

Ever heard of Justin Verlander, Ryan Zimmerman and tons of other players I'm too lazy to look up? They never played AAA. In fact, many of them were top talent. I remember many people on this board especially praising Florida's moves because they got so many highly touted prospects. I disagree that talent doesn't get you anywhere without direction, just look at Matt Murton and Rich Hill. Do you think Dusty had anything to do with their success?

 

No one is saying Girardi did it all himself, but to deny him any credit in what the Marlins accomplished is ridiculous hating.

 

Again, I don't think anyone is denying him credit. I wouldn't be upset if Girardi became the manager of the Cubs. I am just skeptical that the reason the Marlins had a solid season was because of Joe's managing. The KC Royals had a pretty bad team in 2003, but Tony Pena led them to a 83-79 record in his first full year as manager. One year doesn't make a good manager.

 

The point of saying they're not scrubs is that even the best manager can't take a team full of crap and make them win.

 

Zimmerman, Verlander, Willis, etc are the exception to the norm. Anecdotal evidence at best. It is not routine to graduate AA players to the majors and have them stick (and excel). The very talented ones will, i'll give you that, but by and large, the Marlins' prospects were not as highly rated as Zimmerman and Verlander. Those are guys with huge ceilings.

 

Hanley Ramirez...his stock tanked last season. To rebound, and at the ML level no less, is flat out remarkable. That didn't happen just b/c "he is talented." Something brought the talent out consistently in every player on the Marlins staff.

 

If they had a bunch of hit and misses bringing guys up from the minors, I'd agree with you about Girardi, but pretty much across the board guys improved. That's what good coaching does.

 

Have you ever played organized baseball? ...beyond high school and little league? Coaching matters with young guys. With vets, not so much.

 

I can't even believe we're having this discussion. Any experience whatsoever beyond non-competitive baseball, watching baseball, and looking at stats makes this a no-brainer (not that those things aren't valuable).

 

I don't hear any baseball insiders saying Girardi was a non-factor. I don't hear Beinfest saying that, or the other jack*sses who stabbed him in the back anonymously.

 

Did Girardi turn a 100 loss team into a playoff contender on his own? Hell no. Those players are talented, but a coach isn't supposed to swing the bat for players or catch the ball. He's supposed to unlock potential, and that's exactly what happened. It's either a huge coincidence that that many rookies succeeded consistently, or the coaching staff had a large positive influence.

 

Any fool can take a team of self managing and policing vets w/ talent to the playoffs (Baker, Louie P). Getting results (best record in the last 1/2 decade for a 15M team) with young guys with a couple stars (Willis and Cabrera) is something to take note of. Am I in awe of Girardi? Nope, but he's the best choice Hendry might make.

 

The Larry Dierkers of this world aren't going to visit the Wrigley dugout anytime this decade, that's for sure.

[waffle]

On mike and Mike they were just talking to their baseball guy and he stated with some confidence that he thought Girardi was going to end up in Washington, simply because the Cubs orginization is just not that interested in him.

 

Crazy men win. Pat Riley is Crazy. Phil Jackson is crazy. Mike Ditka was crazy. Bill Cowher is crazy. That guy over on the south side is crazy. I could go on and on.

 

Sure, Girardi seems wound, and sure the Trib and Co. is risk averse to an insane degree, but at some point you have to decide that you are going to shoot for the moon, not just 3 million fans and a dull thud.

 

I still think Francona is the dark horse here, he is just EXACTLY what the cubbies think a manager should be.

[CuseCubFan69]

On mike and Mike they were just talking to their baseball guy and he stated with some confidence that he thought Girardi was going to end up in Washington, simply because the Cubs orginization is just not that interested in him.

 

Crazy men win. Pat Riley is Crazy. Phil Jackson is crazy. Mike Ditka was crazy. Bill Cowher is crazy. That guy over on the south side is crazy. I could go on and on.

 

Sure, Girardi seems wound, and sure the Trib and Co. is risk averse to an insane degree, but at some point you have to decide that you are going to shoot for the moon, not just 3 million fans and a dull thud.

 

I still think Francona is the dark horse here, he is just EXACTLY what the cubbies think a manager should be.

 

I heard that....I hope Gammons is wrong. I see you didn't mention Gammons thought that Lou was heading to the Cubs?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

How many teams have managed winning seasons with a 15M or less payroll in the last ten years?

 

ZERO

 

 

The Marlins have the best record of any 15M or less payroll team in the last half-decade.

 

 

Putting things in context is a fun.

 

I don't care that the Marlins had the best record of any team with that payroll. The Cubs won't be a team of rookies and low paid veterans.

 

Furthermore, the team still did not make the playoffs. The team still did not have a winning record. The team had a lot of talent. It may have been talent that had yet to play in the majors, but they were talented nonetheless.

 

I've nothing personal against Girardi. I just don't think he's the best person for the job. I think his "rules" and personality could be Showalter-esque. I think he relies way too much on conventional wisdom. Furthermore, I don't know how he will do with a veteran team or under constant media scrutint.

 

I think that there seems to be strong indications that he has trouble with his superiors.

 

With all the evidence in tow, I hope the Cubs do not hire him.

[waffle]

as you can see, I was only 1/2 listening (on a conf call at the time). I doubt it. Sweet Lou I think would turn us down. I think....

[treebird]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

How many teams have managed winning seasons with a 15M or less payroll in the last ten years?

 

ZERO

 

 

The Marlins have the best record of any 15M or less payroll team in the last half-decade.

 

 

Putting things in context is a fun.

 

how many 15 million dollar teams have there been? it shouldn't be too hard to compare rosters and decide whether the marlins were the most talented among them, because i can't believe there have been many.

[BigbadB]

Considering the options we know about, I endorse Girardi.

[CubinNY]

Considering the options we know about, I endorse Girardi.

 

Yea, it's kind of like choosing amoung your least favorite vegetables. I don't like cooked carrots or cooked broccoli, but I like broccoli more than carrots.

 

But I agree with those that say the manager doesn't really matter unless and until Hendry Brings in more talent.

[Laura]

On mike and Mike they were just talking to their baseball guy and he stated with some confidence that he thought Girardi was going to end up in Washington, simply because the Cubs orginization is just not that interested in him.

 

Crazy men win. Pat Riley is Crazy. Phil Jackson is crazy. Mike Ditka was crazy. Bill Cowher is crazy. That guy over on the south side is crazy. I could go on and on.

 

Sure, Girardi seems wound, and sure the Trib and Co. is risk averse to an insane degree, but at some point you have to decide that you are going to shoot for the moon, not just 3 million fans and a dull thud.

 

I still think Francona is the dark horse here, he is just EXACTLY what the cubbies think a manager should be.

 

I heard that....I hope Gammons is wrong. I see you didn't mention Gammons thought that Lou was heading to the Cubs?

 

I heard it in the car. Gammons said something about how Piniella wouldn't want to go to a rebuilding team, he wants to 'win now' and Mike/Mike asked "aren't the Cubs in rebuilding mode after their horrible year?" Gammons said, "yes, but they'll spend $100M while rebuilding." hooray?

[goonys evil twin]

I just hope to God that Hendry doesn't use the manager hire as the premiere offseason acquisition.

[Laura]

I wonder if Rozner is referrring to an ESPN broadcasting gig.

 

Barry Rozner / The Daily Herald[/url]"] When Joe Girardi arrives in Chicago for his interview next week, it won’t be with hat in hand, begging for a job.

 

He already has an offer to broadcast in 2007, at least two managerial interviews arranged, and will stay out of the dugout if he sees that as his best option.

 

“I love managing. I love the job. I love the competition. I love the relationships,’’ Girardi said from his car Thursday in Florida, where he was driving to pick up his son at school. “But if it’s not the right fit or I’m not offered a job, I won’t be managing next year.

 

Rozner has a interview-chat with Girardi leading off his column.

[CuseCubFan69]

I just hope to God that Hendry doesn't use the manager hire as the premiere offseason acquisition.

 

Ahhhh....that would be classic.

[KurtEvans]

Hey, folks. My colleague at Goat Riders went out and contacted some bloggers who follow the Marlins. They filled us in on their thoughts of Girardi, and it's not very positive. You can check it out by going here.

 

On the bright side, some players for the Marlins have contradicted what those guys thought. On the other hand, we definitely shouldn't expect Joe to "save us," although he would HAVE to be an improvement on Baker just for his disciplinary skills.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

And why isn't everyone who is on the Girardi bandwgn not also clamoring for Tony Pena.

 

While Pena's 2003 Royals weren't of the same low payroll as the Marlins, they were equally underdogs. Take a look at the team here.

 

Pena lead this group to an 83-79 record, which is quite impressive considering their EX W-L should have been 78-84.

 

Giradi's Marlins finished 78-84, which is actually worse than the expected 80-82.

 

Why don't we clamor for Pena? Maybe because other than that Royals team, his record was 49-77 in 2002, 58-104 in 2004, and 8-25 in 2005 before getting canned.

 

But I think it should go to show that one season doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot, does it?

 

It should be noted that Pena was the 2003 Manager of the Year for his accomplishment.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Hey, folks. My colleague at Goat Riders went out and contacted some bloggers who follow the Marlins. They filled us in on their thoughts of Girardi, and it's not very positive. You can check it out by going here.

 

On the bright side, some players for the Marlins have contradicted what those guys thought. On the other hand, we definitely shouldn't expect Joe to "save us," although he would HAVE to be an improvement on Baker just for his disciplinary skills.

 

Great run down there, Kurt. It seems the fears I've had about Girardi are supported there.

[KurtEvans]

Hey, folks. My colleague at Goat Riders went out and contacted some bloggers who follow the Marlins. They filled us in on their thoughts of Girardi, and it's not very positive. You can check it out by going here.

 

On the bright side, some players for the Marlins have contradicted what those guys thought. On the other hand, we definitely shouldn't expect Joe to "save us," although he would HAVE to be an improvement on Baker just for his disciplinary skills.

 

Great run down there, Kurt. It seems the fears I've had about Girardi are supported there.

 

I've got a couple of thoughts about it. In a different topic, we talked about the Herges interview on B&B. Herges was, amongst other things glowing about how good a manager Girardi is. Herges said that all the negative things spoken about Girardi are untrue. Girardi makes Herges want to be a better man, he has integrity, he is both tough and nice but not too much of either. Girardi is a father figure who uses tough love. Herges doesn't believe that anyone wouldn't respond to Joe's style. Even Scott Olson, the player Girardi grabbed by the jersey during the game against Chicago would do anything for him. Furthermore, Herges believes that any veteran players who don't hustle - like Aramis - would hustle for Girardi because Cabrera used to dog it until Joe arrived, and Cabrera was also moved to tears when Joe was fired.

 

So, I think he might be good for the players. As far as his strategy does... I would be shocked senseless if Girardi ever made Derrek or Aramis bunt. Regardless of that, I also think that Joe is still young and developing as a manager, so we can't assume he will repeat past mistakes.

 

In other words, although I might want a Bobby Valentine most of all, I would be very satisfied with Joe Girardi, and I will be disgusted with the organization if we get Lou Piniella.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Hey, folks. My colleague at Goat Riders went out and contacted some bloggers who follow the Marlins. They filled us in on their thoughts of Girardi, and it's not very positive. You can check it out by going here.

 

On the bright side, some players for the Marlins have contradicted what those guys thought. On the other hand, we definitely shouldn't expect Joe to "save us," although he would HAVE to be an improvement on Baker just for his disciplinary skills.

 

Great run down there, Kurt. It seems the fears I've had about Girardi are supported there.

 

I've got a couple of thoughts about it. In a different topic, we talked about the Herges interview on B&B. Herges was, amongst other things glowing about how good a manager Girardi is. Herges said that all the negative things spoken about Girardi are untrue. Girardi makes Herges want to be a better man, he has integrity, he is both tough and nice but not too much of either. Girardi is a father figure who uses tough love. Herges doesn't believe that anyone wouldn't respond to Joe's style. Even Scott Olson, the player Girardi grabbed by the jersey during the game against Chicago would do anything for him. Furthermore, Herges believes that any veteran players who don't hustle - like Aramis - would hustle for Girardi because Cabrera used to dog it until Joe arrived, and Cabrera was also moved to tears when Joe was fired.

 

So, I think he might be good for the players. As far as his strategy does... I would be shocked senseless if Girardi ever made Derrek or Aramis bunt. Regardless of that, I also think that Joe is still young and developing as a manager, so we can't assume he will repeat past mistakes.

 

In other words, although I might want a Bobby Valentine most of all, I would be very satisfied with Joe Girardi, and I will be disgusted with the organization if we get Lou Piniella.

 

In regards to Herges or any of the other comments from players, I think we know how much to value them; lest we want to also take Derrek Lee, Jaque Jones, Juan Pierre, Scott Eyre, and others' words on how great a manager Dusty is. I just think players often develop affinites for their leader which may not always reflect how good that leader is at his job.

 

Everyone knows my personal preference for manager, and I'm also aware that it has less than a 1% chance of happening. Valentine is a good choice, and behind Dierker, Davey Johnson, Terry Francona (who likely ins't available), and the re-incarnated corpse of Johnny Oates, I'd probaly put Valentine fifth.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I swear, some Cub fans find reasons to complain about everything and anything.

 

 

Who wants Louie P in Chicago? Anyone?

 

The choices seemingly are Girardi (b/c fans are ramming down Hendry's throat), Piniella, and Brenly...not Dierker, Pena, etc.

 

 

None of those options are ideal for most people, but we're going to have to make do.

[SouthSideRyan]

Am I making things up or did Herges have some sort of dust up with one of his old managers?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I swear, some Cub fans find reasons to complain about everything and anything.

 

 

Who wants Louie P in Chicago? Anyone?

 

The choices seemingly are Girardi (b/c fans are ramming down Hendry's throat), Piniella, and Brenly...not Dierker, Pena, etc.

 

 

None of those options are ideal for most people, but we're going to have to make do.

 

If my choices are Piniella, Girardi, or Brenly...I think I'd choose Brenly. Neither are ideal, but I think Brenly looks better than the other two.

 

Of course, until a decision is made, I'm holding out hope that Hendry's deliberance is a sign that he is considering more than just those three.

 

My point by including Pena is to show that Girardi has done nothing more than what Pena accomplished, yet many would likely rail Pena a choice while proclaiming Girardi a "match made in heaven." In fact, Pena might be a better choice than Girardi.

[C.C.]

I swear, some Cub fans find reasons to complain about everything and anything.

 

Unfortunately there's a lot to complain about and very little not to complain about...

[RichHillIsABeast]

I swear, some Cub fans find reasons to complain about everything and anything.

 

 

Who wants Louie P in Chicago? Anyone?

 

The choices seemingly are Girardi (b/c fans are ramming down Hendry's throat), Piniella, and Brenly...not Dierker, Pena, etc.

 

 

None of those options are ideal for most people, but we're going to have to make do.

 

If my choices are Piniella, Girardi, or Brenly...I think I'd choose Brenly. Neither are ideal, but I think Brenly looks better than the other two.

 

Of course, until a decision is made, I'm holding out hope that Hendry's deliberance is a sign that he is considering more than just those three.

 

My point by including Pena is to show that Girardi has done nothing more than what Pena accomplished, yet many would likely rail Pena a choice while proclaiming Girardi a "match made in heaven." In fact, Pena might be a better choice than Girardi.

 

If I had my choice of anyone to manage the Cubs, it certainly wouldn't be Girardi. I just think he deserves some of the credit for what the Marlins did this season.

 

Piniella is the absolute worst choice after the last two years under Dusty. The vet love coupled with smallball is too much for me sometimes, and I'd rather just enjoy the games.

 

Brenly might be the best option of the 3 main candidates. We know the most about his thoughts on smallball, obp, youth etc from his time in the booth. I'd be most comfortable with him.

 

There are just too many unknowns with Girardi. I wish we'd have gotten a better look at Fredi Gonzales, but that didn't happen.

 

I'd be happy with either Girardi or Brenly and completely disgusted with Piniella.

[wastra]

I want a manager who does very little managing, to be honest.

 

I want a manager who fils out RELATIVELY the same lineup card (intelligently) day-in and day-out. I want a manager who makes sensible pitchign changes (the most active role a mgr should take is with pitchers). I want a manager who preaches patience at the plate and stresses fundamentals.

 

Aside from that, and helping rookeis adjust, I tend to believe that the more decisions a manager makes, the worse off the team is. All in all, I simply want a manager who puts the best team on the field in the msartest lineup and lets them do their thing as much as possible. Any more about their preferred "style" or what they like/dislike is just bad news for a team, imo. Managers don't win many ballgames, but they can certainly help lose them by trying to be TOO involved in the playing of the games.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I swear, some Cub fans find reasons to complain about everything and anything.

 

Unfortunately there's a lot to complain about and very little not to complain about...

 

Yeah, but we're starting to get to the point where we're almost creating things to complain about. That's not good.