What is people's fascination with Girardi about?

[Sosa21MVP]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

Relative to what he had to work with in terms of inexperience, I'm not sure how you cannot see an accomplishment. Managing what amounted to a Class AAAA team into playoff contention after a horrible start is worth consideration.

[dalgreen]

Since it's pretty obvious that some want Girardi primarily because he's a former Cub, why not go and hire Lloyd McClendon? I mean Girardi's team finished with a sub .500 record as did all of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh, yet I believe that Girardi's team this year was more talented than any of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh. Just wondering.... I just don't get the fascination with Girardi.

 

:roll:

 

Good come back.

 

I agree. Based on what you posted, it's not worth wasting my time to go any further.

 

Yeah, whatever. Your opinion that just because Girardi managed a young team with a low payroll to an almost .500 record (when this was one of the worst NL years) is as bad as those who swore Dusty Baker was a good manager just because he won 3 Manager of the Year titles. Tell me Girardi's philosophy on baseball if you will.

[Sosa21MVP]

petition to ban rolleyes plz

 

Why? In some cases, it pretty much sums up the issue rather well.

[Wilson A2000]

Not sure if this has been posted, but the Score intervied Marlins pitcher Matt Herges today. He loved Girardi and said that much of the bad press is wrong on him, but wouldnt call people out the false reports specifically because he is still on the Marlins. According to Herges, there is always a percentage of players who dont like the coach on most teams, but every player on the Marlins supported and liked Girardi. Even Cabrera, who Herges said normally does not mesh well with those in authority, at the last day of the season publicly told the teram at a team meeting while in tears how much he appreciated and respected Girardi.

[dalgreen]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

Relative to what he had to work with in terms of inexperience, I'm not sure how you cannot see an accomplishment. Managing what amounted to a Class AAAA team into playoff contention after a horrible start is worth consideration.

 

Talent can overcome inexperience. They had a pretty good starting rotation, Cabrera, good rookies and a closer who could do his job. We had none of those this year. Add to that a not-so-good NL and it can spell some success. Unless you all of a sudden think guys will forget how to hit and pitch under Fredi Gonzalez.

[Sosa21MVP]

Since it's pretty obvious that some want Girardi primarily because he's a former Cub, why not go and hire Lloyd McClendon? I mean Girardi's team finished with a sub .500 record as did all of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh, yet I believe that Girardi's team this year was more talented than any of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh. Just wondering.... I just don't get the fascination with Girardi.

 

:roll:

 

Good come back.

 

I agree. Based on what you posted, it's not worth wasting my time to go any further.

 

Yeah, whatever. Your opinion that just because Girardi managed a young team with a low payroll to an almost .500 record (when this was one of the worst NL years) is as bad as those who swore Dusty Baker was a good manager just because he won 3 Manager of the Year titles. Tell me Girardi's philosophy on baseball if you will.

 

Okay, name for me the managers who have managed young teams with a $15 payroll into playoff contention. Dusty always had A LOT more to work with than that during his Manager of the Year seasons. It's not a valid comparison. Evidently Girardi's philosophy on baseball is quite a bit superior to Dusty's when the guy gets more results with $80 million less on the payroll.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

petition to ban rolleyes plz

 

Why? In some cases, it pretty much sums up the issue rather well.

 

No, it never does.

[dalgreen]

petition to ban rolleyes plz

 

Actually, I don't mind the rolleyes if one can at least form one sentence either preceding it or following it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

Relative to what he had to work with in terms of inexperience, I'm not sure how you cannot see an accomplishment. Managing what amounted to a Class AAAA team into playoff contention after a horrible start is worth consideration.

 

That was a very talented team. It wasn't a AAAA team, it was just a very young major league team. They also had benefit of one of the most talented hitters in the game. I'm not saying Girardi didn't do anything with them, but I don't think he's distinguished himself either.

 

 

Now if the team tanks under Gonzalez, then maybe we'll have more info to deal with. And just because Girardi was good with a bunch of rookies, doesn't mean he'll succeed in Chicago with a veteran-laden team. The situations aren't comparable.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Since it's pretty obvious that some want Girardi primarily because he's a former Cub, why not go and hire Lloyd McClendon? I mean Girardi's team finished with a sub .500 record as did all of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh, yet I believe that Girardi's team this year was more talented than any of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh. Just wondering.... I just don't get the fascination with Girardi.

 

:roll:

 

Good come back.

 

I agree. Based on what you posted, it's not worth wasting my time to go any further.

 

Yeah, whatever. Your opinion that just because Girardi managed a young team with a low payroll to an almost .500 record (when this was one of the worst NL years) is as bad as those who swore Dusty Baker was a good manager just because he won 3 Manager of the Year titles. Tell me Girardi's philosophy on baseball if you will.

 

Okay, name for me the managers who have managed young teams with a $15 payroll into playoff contention. Dusty always had A LOT more to work with than that during his Manager of the Year seasons. It's not a valid comparison. Evidently Girardi's philosophy on baseball is quite a bit superior to Dusty's when the guy gets more results with $80 million less on the payroll.

 

That's neither here nor there because the Cubs are not a young team with a 15-million payroll. And our goal isn't to have a below 500 record. I'd rather get a manager who can manage a 90-million payroll team to the playoffs with a 90-win season.

[dalgreen]

Since it's pretty obvious that some want Girardi primarily because he's a former Cub, why not go and hire Lloyd McClendon? I mean Girardi's team finished with a sub .500 record as did all of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh, yet I believe that Girardi's team this year was more talented than any of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh. Just wondering.... I just don't get the fascination with Girardi.

 

:roll:

 

Good come back.

 

I agree. Based on what you posted, it's not worth wasting my time to go any further.

 

Yeah, whatever. Your opinion that just because Girardi managed a young team with a low payroll to an almost .500 record (when this was one of the worst NL years) is as bad as those who swore Dusty Baker was a good manager just because he won 3 Manager of the Year titles. Tell me Girardi's philosophy on baseball if you will.

 

Okay, name for me the managers who have managed young teams with a $15 payroll into playoff contention. Dusty always had A LOT more to work with than that during his Manager of the Year seasons. It's not a valid comparison. Evidently Girardi's philosophy on baseball is quite a bit superior to Dusty's when the guy gets more results with $80 million less on the payroll.

 

Just as I thought, you have no clue as to whether or not Girardi, when given a choice, has a fetish for vets or not. He had no choice but to play younger players with the payroll of that team. By not answering my question you have no clue if he leaves in starters too long. By not answering my question you have no clue if he loves the 1st inning sac bunt, etc.

 

And to answer your question, I don't remember the last time a team had a payroll of $15 million. So someone has to be the first, I guess. The payroll has little to do with the manager. Maybe if Girardi had managed the Cubs in 2006, maybe we would've only been 25 games under .500. Talent has a lot to do with it too. Too bad our GM doesn't know how to manage a $95 million budget. Perhaps he's be better with a $15 million payroll, too.

[Sosa21MVP]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

Relative to what he had to work with in terms of inexperience, I'm not sure how you cannot see an accomplishment. Managing what amounted to a Class AAAA team into playoff contention after a horrible start is worth consideration.

 

That was a very talented team. It wasn't a AAAA team, it was just a very young major league team. They also had benefit of one of the most talented hitters in the game. I'm not saying Girardi didn't do anything with them, but I don't think he's distinguished himself either.

 

 

Now if the team tanks under Gonzalez, then maybe we'll have more info to deal with. And just because Girardi was good with a bunch of rookies, doesn't mean he'll succeed in Chicago with a veteran-laden team. The situations aren't comparable.

 

You make some good points. In hindsight, sure you can say the talent was there. But at the beginning of the season the Marlins were pretty much a AAAA team. You had a roster loaded with minor league kids getting a shot. And the team started horribly, competing with the Royals for worst record in MLB for at least a couple months. But Florida turned it around and while you have to spread credit around I can't see not giving Girardi his fair share. Good lord, imagine Dusty managing that team.

 

Where I take a bit of offense and feel strongly on the matter is when people say some Cubs fans are only in favor of Girardi because of his background as an ex-Cub and ex-Yankee. I don't get that. Guy spends his first year as the manager on that Florida team and when it is all said and done, he did a good job IMO. If the Marlins tanked 100% this year and lost 90-100 games, I don't think you'd see nearly as many Cubs fans jockeying for Joe.

 

The response to all this is some people saying "hey hire Lloyd McClendon he has Cubs ties, etc". That is patently ridiculous. The support for Girardi extends beyond his being an ex-Cub.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I agree the support extends beyond his Cubs' ties, but I don't think there would be this much clamoring for him if he had not been a Cub.

 

Girardi may be a great manager. I'm not saying he deserves no credit for what was accomplished in Florida. I'm just saying that there wasn't much really accomplished. The team did better than expected, but still finished with a losing record. I don't think we've seen enough of Girardi to know how strong a manager he will be. I'm also concerned about some of his strategies and philosophies.

 

He may come here and prove me wrong, but if I were making the decisions, I'm not even sure he's among my top five.

[dalgreen]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

Relative to what he had to work with in terms of inexperience, I'm not sure how you cannot see an accomplishment. Managing what amounted to a Class AAAA team into playoff contention after a horrible start is worth consideration.

 

That was a very talented team. It wasn't a AAAA team, it was just a very young major league team. They also had benefit of one of the most talented hitters in the game. I'm not saying Girardi didn't do anything with them, but I don't think he's distinguished himself either.

 

 

Now if the team tanks under Gonzalez, then maybe we'll have more info to deal with. And just because Girardi was good with a bunch of rookies, doesn't mean he'll succeed in Chicago with a veteran-laden team. The situations aren't comparable.

 

You make some good points. In hindsight, sure you can say the talent was there. But at the beginning of the season the Marlins were pretty much a AAAA team. You had a roster loaded with minor league kids getting a shot. And the team started horribly, competing with the Royals for worst record in MLB for at least a couple months. But Florida turned it around and while you have to spread credit around I can't see not giving Girardi his fair share. Good lord, imagine Dusty managing that team.

 

Where I take a bit of offense and feel strongly on the matter is when people say some Cubs fans are only in favor of Girardi because of his background as an ex-Cub and ex-Yankee. I don't get that. Guy spends his first year as the manager on that Florida team and when it is all said and done, he did a good job IMO. If the Marlins tanked 100% this year and lost 90-100 games, I don't think you'd see nearly as many Cubs fans jockeying for Joe.

 

The response to all this is some people saying "hey hire Lloyd McClendon he has Cubs ties, etc". That is patently ridiculous. The support for Girardi extends beyond his being an ex-Cub.

 

You are dead wrong if you think there aren't SOME people enamored with Girardi because he's a former Cub. I remember before he was hired by Florida some Cub fans saying, "Hire Girardi he's a former Cub" while he was still a bench coach with the Yankees. I have failed to read any post that said that EVERY or the majority of people like him only because he's a former Cub. But there are definitely some.

[Sosa21MVP]

Since it's pretty obvious that some want Girardi primarily because he's a former Cub, why not go and hire Lloyd McClendon? I mean Girardi's team finished with a sub .500 record as did all of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh, yet I believe that Girardi's team this year was more talented than any of McClendon's teams in Pittsburgh. Just wondering.... I just don't get the fascination with Girardi.

 

:roll:

 

Good come back.

 

I agree. Based on what you posted, it's not worth wasting my time to go any further.

 

Yeah, whatever. Your opinion that just because Girardi managed a young team with a low payroll to an almost .500 record (when this was one of the worst NL years) is as bad as those who swore Dusty Baker was a good manager just because he won 3 Manager of the Year titles. Tell me Girardi's philosophy on baseball if you will.

 

Okay, name for me the managers who have managed young teams with a $15 payroll into playoff contention. Dusty always had A LOT more to work with than that during his Manager of the Year seasons. It's not a valid comparison. Evidently Girardi's philosophy on baseball is quite a bit superior to Dusty's when the guy gets more results with $80 million less on the payroll.

 

That's neither here nor there because the Cubs are not a young team with a 15-million payroll. And our goal isn't to have a below 500 record. I'd rather get a manager who can manage a 90-million payroll team to the playoffs with a 90-win season.

 

If the guy can manage a $15 million team of kids to playoff contention, then I'd say give him more to work with and see what happens. If the guy can manage the $15 million payroll to playoff contention how does that conflict with the idea of Girardi being able to do more with more resources? I'm just not seeing the logic of these arguments.

 

So you are saying the fact a guy can only manage a $15 million team to a near .500 record means if the guy had a $90 million team he would do no better?

 

A manager/coach is ultimately limited by what he has to work with. There is a ceiling in place. Hell, who in their right mind figured this Florida team would even be relevant in the playoff hunt in September?

 

Everything else held equal, if a manager's team ends up getting more out the team than expected then that is the mark of a good manager. Again, sure you give the players some credit and so forth. But regardless of the sport, if the head man can show the ability to get more than expected out of his team then to me that is a good coach/manager.

 

With all that being said, sure Girardi isn't a sure thing. Nothing is a sure thing. But I'd take my chances with him getting above average results at a minimum.

[VanceJergins]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

A team that was predicted to lose over 100 games. I dont think it was all because of Girardi, but the team did vastly over-achieve. It might have some to do with his managing, it might not.

 

how many wins do you think they'll have this year? remember, girardi's gone, so they're all going to go back to being bums.

 

Does that answer your question? We'll wait and see how much of an impact he had....I dont know.

[RichHillIsABeast]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

How many teams have managed winning seasons with a 15M or less payroll in the last ten years?

 

ZERO

 

 

The Marlins have the best record of any 15M or less payroll team in the last half-decade.

 

 

Putting things in context is a fun.

[Sosa21MVP]

He managed a team to an under 500 record. I still fail to see the accomplishment.

 

Relative to what he had to work with in terms of inexperience, I'm not sure how you cannot see an accomplishment. Managing what amounted to a Class AAAA team into playoff contention after a horrible start is worth consideration.

 

That was a very talented team. It wasn't a AAAA team, it was just a very young major league team. They also had benefit of one of the most talented hitters in the game. I'm not saying Girardi didn't do anything with them, but I don't think he's distinguished himself either.

 

 

Now if the team tanks under Gonzalez, then maybe we'll have more info to deal with. And just because Girardi was good with a bunch of rookies, doesn't mean he'll succeed in Chicago with a veteran-laden team. The situations aren't comparable.

 

You make some good points. In hindsight, sure you can say the talent was there. But at the beginning of the season the Marlins were pretty much a AAAA team. You had a roster loaded with minor league kids getting a shot. And the team started horribly, competing with the Royals for worst record in MLB for at least a couple months. But Florida turned it around and while you have to spread credit around I can't see not giving Girardi his fair share. Good lord, imagine Dusty managing that team.

 

Where I take a bit of offense and feel strongly on the matter is when people say some Cubs fans are only in favor of Girardi because of his background as an ex-Cub and ex-Yankee. I don't get that. Guy spends his first year as the manager on that Florida team and when it is all said and done, he did a good job IMO. If the Marlins tanked 100% this year and lost 90-100 games, I don't think you'd see nearly as many Cubs fans jockeying for Joe.

 

The response to all this is some people saying "hey hire Lloyd McClendon he has Cubs ties, etc". That is patently ridiculous. The support for Girardi extends beyond his being an ex-Cub.

 

You are dead wrong if you think there aren't SOME people enamored with Girardi because he's a former Cub. I remember before he was hired by Florida some Cub fans saying, "Hire Girardi he's a former Cub" while he was still a bench coach with the Yankees. I have failed to read any post that said that EVERY or the majority of people like him only because he's a former Cub. But there are definitely some.

 

True but I'm not arguing for those people. Obviously we all have our opinions and standards. I guess in the end the tone I was sensing here was that a good number of people thought that was the only reason for the support for Girardi.

 

Hey I can't fight other people's battles. I guess in the end I'm just clarifying my own thoughts on the matter. That is all.

[sherwood921]

Just because a team had a $15 mil payroll doesn't mean they had no talent. According to ESPN Miguel Cabrera's salary was $472,000. I'd say he's pretty darn good. They were young, yes...I will give you that. The problem is people here are acting like the team was horrible. Yes, I like Girardi and I think he did a pretty darn good job with a bunch of kids, most of them had very solid years. However, just because they aren't getting paid a lot doesn't mean the talent isn't there. I think it is pretty well known that the majority of major leaguers are underpaid until they hit free agency, at which point they become overpaid. Salary is not the see all end all that many of Girardi's supporters are making it.

[shnsajax]

There is really not a single manager that I really want as of right now. But their are several manager as of right now that I really don't want; Lou, Bowa, and Showalter.

 

Regardless of Florida I think Girardi has a lot of potential, and I think he could be a good fit as well. Is he the best guy, I have no idea, but I won't complain if he is or isn't signed. The manager is not going to matter too much with the current lineup we are sending out everyday.

[Andy]

My only contribution is that all of the NL was basically AAAA this year.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Just because a team had a $15 mil payroll doesn't mean they had no talent. According to ESPN Miguel Cabrera's salary was $472,000. I'd say he's pretty darn good. They were young, yes...I will give you that. The problem is people here are acting like the team was horrible. Yes, I like Girardi and I think he did a pretty darn good job with a bunch of kids, most of them had very solid years. However, just because they aren't getting paid a lot doesn't mean the talent isn't there. I think it is pretty well known that the majority of major leaguers are underpaid until they hit free agency, at which point they become overpaid. Salary is not the see all end all that many of Girardi's supporters are making it.

 

Take a look at that roster. A lot of those guys were at AA last season and didn't figure to be ML ready by anyone's imagination outside the Marlins org. Geez, even prospects like Hanley Ramirez had their stock drop substantially the previous season.

 

Someone ironed out the normal rookie ups and downs. That's the coaching staff. Girardi specifically? I have no idea, but he ran the dugout.

 

People who don't like Girardi don't want to give credit where credit is due. How many managers won 50% of their games with a team full of scrubs (refering to hypothetical scenario, not the '06 Marlins)? This isn't Major League with Pedro Cerano and Wild Thing Vaughn.

[CubinNY]

Just because a team had a $15 mil payroll doesn't mean they had no talent. According to ESPN Miguel Cabrera's salary was $472,000. I'd say he's pretty darn good. They were young, yes...I will give you that. The problem is people here are acting like the team was horrible. Yes, I like Girardi and I think he did a pretty darn good job with a bunch of kids, most of them had very solid years. However, just because they aren't getting paid a lot doesn't mean the talent isn't there. I think it is pretty well known that the majority of major leaguers are underpaid until they hit free agency, at which point they become overpaid. Salary is not the see all end all that many of Girardi's supporters are making it.

 

Take a look at that roster. A lot of those guys were at AA last season and didn't figure to be ML ready by anyone's imagination outside the Marlins org. Geez, even prospects like Hanley Ramirez had their stock drop substantially the previous season.

 

Someone ironed out the normal rookie ups and downs. That's the coaching staff. Girardi specifically? I have no idea, but he ran the dugout.

 

People who don't like Girardi don't want to give credit where credit is due. How many managers won 50% of their games with a team full of scrubs (refering to hypothetical scenario, not the '06 Marlins)? This isn't Major League with Pedro Cerano and Wild Thing Vaughn.

 

Some of those "scrubs" would have started on the Cubs. They started out terrible becuase Giardi had people in the bullpen who should have been starting and people starting who should have been in the pen. He was then told to start the rookies and they started to win.

 

Many of the best players go directly from AA to the majors. Especially with the talent of the players in the Marlins organization.

 

It doesn't take imagnination to win and it doesn't take "leadership" to win, whatever that is.

 

It takes talent to win and the team had a lot of young talent. In two or three years they will probably win another WS, without their fearless leader.

Edited October 6, 2006 by CubinNY

[sherwood921]

Just because a team had a $15 mil payroll doesn't mean they had no talent. According to ESPN Miguel Cabrera's salary was $472,000. I'd say he's pretty darn good. They were young, yes...I will give you that. The problem is people here are acting like the team was horrible. Yes, I like Girardi and I think he did a pretty darn good job with a bunch of kids, most of them had very solid years. However, just because they aren't getting paid a lot doesn't mean the talent isn't there. I think it is pretty well known that the majority of major leaguers are underpaid until they hit free agency, at which point they become overpaid. Salary is not the see all end all that many of Girardi's supporters are making it.

 

Take a look at that roster. A lot of those guys were at AA last season and didn't figure to be ML ready by anyone's imagination outside the Marlins org. Geez, even prospects like Hanley Ramirez had their stock drop substantially the previous season.

 

Someone ironed out the normal rookie ups and downs. That's the coaching staff. Girardi specifically? I have no idea, but he ran the dugout.

 

People who don't like Girardi don't want to give credit where credit is due. How many managers won 50% of their games with a team full of scrubs (refering to hypothetical scenario, not the '06 Marlins)? This isn't Major League with Pedro Cerano and Wild Thing Vaughn.

 

And many of them were top prospects from around the league. Many of these top prospects skip AAA anyway. In addition, there was no Pedro Cerano or Rick Vaughn, but they might have been able to compete in the horrible NL this year.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Just because a team had a $15 mil payroll doesn't mean they had no talent. According to ESPN Miguel Cabrera's salary was $472,000. I'd say he's pretty darn good. They were young, yes...I will give you that. The problem is people here are acting like the team was horrible. Yes, I like Girardi and I think he did a pretty darn good job with a bunch of kids, most of them had very solid years. However, just because they aren't getting paid a lot doesn't mean the talent isn't there. I think it is pretty well known that the majority of major leaguers are underpaid until they hit free agency, at which point they become overpaid. Salary is not the see all end all that many of Girardi's supporters are making it.

 

Take a look at that roster. A lot of those guys were at AA last season and didn't figure to be ML ready by anyone's imagination outside the Marlins org. Geez, even prospects like Hanley Ramirez had their stock drop substantially the previous season.

 

Someone ironed out the normal rookie ups and downs. That's the coaching staff. Girardi specifically? I have no idea, but he ran the dugout.

 

People who don't like Girardi don't want to give credit where credit is due. How many managers won 50% of their games with a team full of scrubs (refering to hypothetical scenario, not the '06 Marlins)? This isn't Major League with Pedro Cerano and Wild Thing Vaughn.

 

Some of those "scrubs" would have started on the Cubs. They started out terrible becuase Giardi had people in the bullpen who should have been starting and people starting who should have been in the pen. He was then told to start the rookies and they started to win.

 

Many of the best players go directly from AA to the majors. Especially with the talent of the players in the Marlins organization.

 

It doesn't take imagnination to win and it doesn't take "leadership" to win, whatever that is.

 

It takes talent to win and the team had a lot of young talent. In two or three years they will probably win another WS, without their fearless leader.

 

I didn't refer to any of the Marlins as "scrubs." In fact, I specifically went out of my way to say the opposite.

 

AA to the majors isn't unheard of, but it's difficult to do. Sean Marshall couldn't do it with good numbers. The sheer number of guys who did it last year for the Marlins is ridiculous. I don't deny that many of those guys were talented, but they weren't hyped as world beaters before.

 

Heard of King Felix? There's some context for you. He has more talent in his right arm than the whole Marlins staff does...or so people thought before the season started. Talent doesn't get you anywhere without the right direction - direction provided by the Marlins coaching staff.

 

No one is saying Girardi did it all himself, but to deny him any credit in what the Marlins accomplished is ridiculous hating.