Would you rather have Izturis or Cedeno??

[cubsjunky95]

I would have to go with Cedeno, he's cheaper and I feel that in due time he can be a better offensive player than Izturis. Izzy is due to make like what 4 mil next season??? That's a pretty high amount for someone that really only gives you a great glove.

[sethuel1]

2006 FRAA for Cedeno: -2

2006 FRAA for Izturis: 0

 

Hooray! Izturis is really leaps and bounds ahead of Ronny defensively.

 

Also, I'd like to note, again, that in his Gold Glove season, Izturis had a negative FRAA. That's right, he was actually WORSE THAN AVERAGE AT FIELDING IN THE YEAR HE WON THE GOLD GLOVE.

[CubColtPacer]

2006 FRAA for Cedeno: -2

2006 FRAA for Izturis: 0

 

Hooray! Izturis is really leaps and bounds ahead of Ronny defensively.

 

Also, I'd like to note, again, that in his Gold Glove season, Izturis had a negative FRAA. That's right, he was actually WORSE THAN AVERAGE AT FIELDING IN THE YEAR HE WON THE GOLD GLOVE.

 

Two things: one, Izturis hasn't played any SS this year-so the numbers don't matter very much. Second-is there even a possibility that FRAA could be off? Sure, they might give gold gloves to people sometimes when there are other people who deserve it more. Do you truly think people are dumb enough though to give a gold glove to a person who is below average at his position? This can be backed up by looking at other players. Ichiro in 2004 only recieved a 1-so does that mean he was only a slightly above average defensive player in 2004? In fact, Barry Bonds had a 0 that year-so Ichiro and Barry were approximately equal defensively that year? Also, Sammy got a 7 in 2004. So, in 2004-Sammy Sosa was significantly better than most of the right fielders in defense-do you really want to claim that? I think these numbers can be taken roughly, but with a serious grain of salt when numbers like this pop up.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I have decided that I will no longer partake in conversations where Cesar Izturis is being portrayed as something that he is not. I understand being a homer and thinking things will change, but please do not let facts stand in the way of making an opinion. You can subscribe to the Joe Morgan/Dusty Baker/Kevin Kennedy school of thought that grit and heart and hustle somehow carry more weight than actual results, but I prefer to live in reality. By identifying and acknowledging the shortcomings of this organization, I am one of the many that will be less dissapointed in their future failures -- I'm rightfully expecting them. I firmly believe, based on past results of the 2 players, that Cedeno will be better than Izturis next year and make $4 million less.

 

Jim Hendry was fortunate enough to take advantage of a couple of teams desperately trying to unload payroll to get Ramirez and Lee. I still think the Nomar trade was a good one, and while I wanted him brought back, I can certainly understand the thought process in letting him go. However, the remainder of deals he has made since taking over have put this franchise down the path to failure. The path must be angling downhill because we're getting there in an awful hurry. Oh wait, his deals have just been that bad.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

[half argumentative statement]Davenport translations are useless[/half argumentative statement]

[CubColtPacer]

I have decided that I will no longer partake in conversations where Cesar Izturis is being portrayed as something that he is not. I understand being a homer and thinking things will change, but please do not let facts stand in the way of making an opinion. You can subscribe to the Joe Morgan/Dusty Baker/Kevin Kennedy school of thought that grit and heart and hustle somehow carry more weight than actual results, but I prefer to live in reality. By identifying and acknowledging the shortcomings of this organization, I am one of the many that will be less dissapointed in their future failures -- I'm rightfully expecting them. I firmly believe, based on past results of the 2 players, that Cedeno will be better than Izturis next year and make $4 million less.

 

Pedro-when you look at the past results of the two players, how can you believe that Cedeno will have a better year? Really-Cedeno would have to improve 59 points in OPS just to make it up to Izturis's year so far this year. If you take out the 3 months that Izturis played with the injury last year, he has improved every single year of his career-every single year until this year in which he is coming back from the injury. I am not basing it off of grit or hustle or anything else, but simply the stats-which show that Izturis has gotten better every year he's been healthy. If you think the reason is that he is not going to be healthy next year, then say so. Otherwise, I don't know how a detailed look at the stats doesn't reveal that he will probably continue to improve (although at a slower rate-it's much easier to progress at a fast rate when you're going from terrible to bad). So why do people think he is suddenly going to start to regress again?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I have decided that I will no longer partake in conversations where Cesar Izturis is being portrayed as something that he is not. I understand being a homer and thinking things will change, but please do not let facts stand in the way of making an opinion. You can subscribe to the Joe Morgan/Dusty Baker/Kevin Kennedy school of thought that grit and heart and hustle somehow carry more weight than actual results, but I prefer to live in reality. By identifying and acknowledging the shortcomings of this organization, I am one of the many that will be less dissapointed in their future failures -- I'm rightfully expecting them. I firmly believe, based on past results of the 2 players, that Cedeno will be better than Izturis next year and make $4 million less.

 

Pedro-when you look at the past results of the two players, how can you believe that Cedeno will have a better year? Really-Cedeno would have to improve 59 points in OPS just to make it up to Izturis's year so far this year. If you take out the 3 months that Izturis played with the injury last year, he has improved every single year of his career-every single year until this year in which he is coming back from the injury. I am not basing it off of grit or hustle or anything else, but simply the stats-which show that Izturis has gotten better every year he's been healthy. If you think the reason is that he is not going to be healthy next year, then say so. Otherwise, I don't know how a detailed look at the stats doesn't reveal that he will probably continue to improve (although at a slower rate-it's much easier to progress at a fast rate when you're going from terrible to bad). So why do people think he is suddenly going to start to regress again?

[CubColtPacer]

I have decided that I will no longer partake in conversations where Cesar Izturis is being portrayed as something that he is not. I understand being a homer and thinking things will change, but please do not let facts stand in the way of making an opinion. You can subscribe to the Joe Morgan/Dusty Baker/Kevin Kennedy school of thought that grit and heart and hustle somehow carry more weight than actual results, but I prefer to live in reality. By identifying and acknowledging the shortcomings of this organization, I am one of the many that will be less dissapointed in their future failures -- I'm rightfully expecting them. I firmly believe, based on past results of the 2 players, that Cedeno will be better than Izturis next year and make $4 million less.

 

Pedro-when you look at the past results of the two players, how can you believe that Cedeno will have a better year? Really-Cedeno would have to improve 59 points in OPS just to make it up to Izturis's year so far this year. If you take out the 3 months that Izturis played with the injury last year, he has improved every single year of his career-every single year until this year in which he is coming back from the injury. I am not basing it off of grit or hustle or anything else, but simply the stats-which show that Izturis has gotten better every year he's been healthy. If you think the reason is that he is not going to be healthy next year, then say so. Otherwise, I don't know how a detailed look at the stats doesn't reveal that he will probably continue to improve (although at a slower rate-it's much easier to progress at a fast rate when you're going from terrible to bad). So why do people think he is suddenly going to start to regress again?

 

So I portrayed him as something as he is not by saying that he has gotten better every healthy year? That is easily proven when looking at his stats.

[A New Era]

I have decided that I will no longer partake in conversations where Cesar Izturis is being portrayed as something that he is not. I understand being a homer and thinking things will change, but please do not let facts stand in the way of making an opinion. You can subscribe to the Joe Morgan/Dusty Baker/Kevin Kennedy school of thought that grit and heart and hustle somehow carry more weight than actual results, but I prefer to live in reality. By identifying and acknowledging the shortcomings of this organization, I am one of the many that will be less dissapointed in their future failures -- I'm rightfully expecting them. I firmly believe, based on past results of the 2 players, that Cedeno will be better than Izturis next year and make $4 million less.

 

Pedro-when you look at the past results of the two players, how can you believe that Cedeno will have a better year? Really-Cedeno would have to improve 59 points in OPS just to make it up to Izturis's year so far this year. If you take out the 3 months that Izturis played with the injury last year, he has improved every single year of his career-every single year until this year in which he is coming back from the injury. I am not basing it off of grit or hustle or anything else, but simply the stats-which show that Izturis has gotten better every year he's been healthy. If you think the reason is that he is not going to be healthy next year, then say so. Otherwise, I don't know how a detailed look at the stats doesn't reveal that he will probably continue to improve (although at a slower rate-it's much easier to progress at a fast rate when you're going from terrible to bad). So why do people think he is suddenly going to start to regress again?

 

A simple no response would be better. Hey I agree with ya Colt. He had a decent year in 2004. And wasn't it the first 2 months of 2005 where he had the .350 OBP before he got injured? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Laura]

He'll have to make up a lot of OBP to be worth the $4M.

 

The Cubs are committed to spending $6.65M on Cesar + Neifi next year.

 

The Cubs need to figure out what to do with LF, CF and at least one starting pitching slot, and that's at a minimum unless they plan to start from scratch (which they won't). Aramis will opt out and (hopefully) renegotiate his contract and get a raise; Z is due to have his contract bought out.

 

If you want to balance the budget -- and believe me, I'm all for the Trib blowing a budget and going all out, but I don't realistically expect that to happen -- it seems really likely that the choice between Cesar and Cedeno is kind of a false choice. You have to have a cheap option at SS, 2B or CF to make any budget work, and, depending on who you want to sign, perhaps more than one cheap option. Cesar eliminates SS from the cheap option list.

 

When Hendry bought into Cesar, he pretty much bought into cheap production at 2B, maybe CF and definitely in at least 2 starting pitching slots.

 

 

eta: there needs to be number-crunching laid out and assumptions. I would be astonished -- but happy -- if the Trib raised payroll going into next season. The [url-http://www.thechicagonationalleagueballclub.com/]Chicago National League Ball Club[/url] blog has been doing initial cuts of next year's budget. A lot is unknown at this time.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Laura

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

He'll have to make up a lot of OBP to be worth the $4M.

 

The Cubs are committed to spending $6.65M on Cesar + Neifi next year.

 

The Cubs need to figure out what to do with LF, CF and at least one starting pitching slot, and that's at a minimum unless they plan to start from scratch (which they won't). Aramis will opt out and (hopefully) renegotiate his contract and get a raise; Z is due to have his contract bought out.

 

If you want to balance the budget -- and believe me, I'm all for the Trib blowing a budget and going all out, but I don't realistically expect that to happen -- it seems really likely that the choice between Cesar and Cedeno is kind of a false choice. You have to have a cheap option at SS, 2B or CF to make any budget work, and, depending on who you want to sign, perhaps more than one cheap option. Cesar eliminates SS from the cheap option list.

 

When Hendry bought into Cesar, he pretty much bought into cheap production at 2B, maybe CF and definitely in at least 2 starting pitching slots.

 

Hendry said yesterday on the Score670 (in his interview with Mike Murphy) that he has all intentions to bring back Pierre for next year. So it seems he definitely knows what direction he wants to go in terms of CF.

 

Here's a link to the interview for anyone who hasn't heard it........

 

http://670thescore.com/podspot/pages/murphy/4.shtml

[Laura]

 

Hendry said yesterday on the Score670 (in his interview with Mike Murphy) that he has all intentions to bring back Pierre for next year. So it seems he definitely knows what direction he wants to go in terms of CF.

 

Then eliminate CF from the list of cheap options and factor that into who you want playing LF and pitching next year. Pierre made $5.75M this year and he's unlikely to take a pay cut.

[jjgman21]

He'll have to make up a lot of OBP to be worth the $4M.

 

The Cubs are committed to spending $6.65M on Cesar + Neifi next year.

 

The Cubs need to figure out what to do with LF, CF and at least one starting pitching slot, and that's at a minimum unless they plan to start from scratch (which they won't). Aramis will opt out and (hopefully) renegotiate his contract and get a raise; Z is due to have his contract bought out.

 

If you want to balance the budget -- and believe me, I'm all for the Trib blowing a budget and going all out, but I don't realistically expect that to happen -- it seems really likely that the choice between Cesar and Cedeno is kind of a false choice. You have to have a cheap option at SS, 2B or CF to make any budget work, and, depending on who you want to sign, perhaps more than one cheap option. Cesar eliminates SS from the cheap option list.

 

When Hendry bought into Cesar, he pretty much bought into cheap production at 2B, maybe CF and definitely in at least 2 starting pitching slots.

 

Hendry said yesterday on the Score670 (in his interview with Mike Murphy) that he has all intentions to bring back Pierre for next year. So it seems he definitely knows what direction he wants to go in terms of CF.

 

Here's a link to the interview for anyone who hasn't heard it........

 

http://670thescore.com/podspot/pages/murphy/4.shtml

 

time to get a new hobby. if they go into 2007 with Pierre, Cedeno and Izturis in the line up, there won't be a point in watching or posting about the Cubs.

[CubColtPacer]

I have decided that I will no longer partake in conversations where Cesar Izturis is being portrayed as something that he is not. I understand being a homer and thinking things will change, but please do not let facts stand in the way of making an opinion. You can subscribe to the Joe Morgan/Dusty Baker/Kevin Kennedy school of thought that grit and heart and hustle somehow carry more weight than actual results, but I prefer to live in reality. By identifying and acknowledging the shortcomings of this organization, I am one of the many that will be less dissapointed in their future failures -- I'm rightfully expecting them. I firmly believe, based on past results of the 2 players, that Cedeno will be better than Izturis next year and make $4 million less.

 

Pedro-when you look at the past results of the two players, how can you believe that Cedeno will have a better year? Really-Cedeno would have to improve 59 points in OPS just to make it up to Izturis's year so far this year. If you take out the 3 months that Izturis played with the injury last year, he has improved every single year of his career-every single year until this year in which he is coming back from the injury. I am not basing it off of grit or hustle or anything else, but simply the stats-which show that Izturis has gotten better every year he's been healthy. If you think the reason is that he is not going to be healthy next year, then say so. Otherwise, I don't know how a detailed look at the stats doesn't reveal that he will probably continue to improve (although at a slower rate-it's much easier to progress at a fast rate when you're going from terrible to bad). So why do people think he is suddenly going to start to regress again?

 

A simple no response would be better. Hey I agree with ya Colt. He had a decent year in 2004. And wasn't it the first 2 months of 2005 where he had the .350 OBP before he got injured? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

It was the first 2 months of 05, but he actually had a .348 BA during that time and his OBP was all the way up to .389 during that time.

[CubColtPacer]

He'll have to make up a lot of OBP to be worth the $4M.

 

The Cubs are committed to spending $6.65M on Cesar + Neifi next year.

 

The Cubs need to figure out what to do with LF, CF and at least one starting pitching slot, and that's at a minimum unless they plan to start from scratch (which they won't). Aramis will opt out and (hopefully) renegotiate his contract and get a raise; Z is due to have his contract bought out.

 

If you want to balance the budget -- and believe me, I'm all for the Trib blowing a budget and going all out, but I don't realistically expect that to happen -- it seems really likely that the choice between Cesar and Cedeno is kind of a false choice. You have to have a cheap option at SS, 2B or CF to make any budget work, and, depending on who you want to sign, perhaps more than one cheap option. Cesar eliminates SS from the cheap option list.

 

When Hendry bought into Cesar, he pretty much bought into cheap production at 2B, maybe CF and definitely in at least 2 starting pitching slots.

 

Hendry said yesterday on the Score670 (in his interview with Mike Murphy) that he has all intentions to bring back Pierre for next year. So it seems he definitely knows what direction he wants to go in terms of CF.

 

Here's a link to the interview for anyone who hasn't heard it........

 

http://670thescore.com/podspot/pages/murphy/4.shtml

 

time to get a new hobby. if they go into 2007 with Pierre, Cedeno and Izturis in the line up, there won't be a point in watching or posting about the Cubs.

 

The more I've thought about this, the more I think it might not be a completely lost cause. If those 3 are in the lineup, we'll have a similar offense to this year except for these things. LF will have possibly much more production if we sign a big bat. RF will have more production if we platoon Jones and Murton. Ramirez should have a better year next year at third. Izturis and Cedeno in the middle infield should definitely be better than Cedeno/Neifi/Womack (not including Walker because most of his at-bats were at first this year-and I'm saying it will be an improvement because Izturis is a better hitter than any of those options, and Cedeno should improve over his year this year). Lee will be back at first, and his production should help this lineup a lot. The only position where I see decreased production is from catcher, where Barrett is having a career year (Pierre I think would have a better year next year, but that's just a hunch-so for the purposes of this, I gave him the exact same stats next year). If this happens, we won't have a great offense-but our offense will definitely be improved over this year's version, probably in the 20th-23th range in the majors. Of course, that is not what any of us are hoping for, but an offense like that would at least give us a chance if our pitching was lights out.

[Dr. Cub]

Neither. I want Nomar back. We need him. Hell, I need him. I'm a mess without him. I miss him so damn much. I miss being with him, I miss being near him. I miss his laugh. I miss his scent; I miss his musk. When this all gets sorted out, I think him and me and Mia should get an apartment together.

 

I just shot hot coffee out of my nose, thank you. This is the funniest post I've ever read. It could also be the creepiest, I'm not sure. Maybe that's what makes it so damn funny.

[dew1679666265]

He'll have to make up a lot of OBP to be worth the $4M.

 

The Cubs are committed to spending $6.65M on Cesar + Neifi next year.

 

The Cubs need to figure out what to do with LF, CF and at least one starting pitching slot, and that's at a minimum unless they plan to start from scratch (which they won't). Aramis will opt out and (hopefully) renegotiate his contract and get a raise; Z is due to have his contract bought out.

 

If you want to balance the budget -- and believe me, I'm all for the Trib blowing a budget and going all out, but I don't realistically expect that to happen -- it seems really likely that the choice between Cesar and Cedeno is kind of a false choice. You have to have a cheap option at SS, 2B or CF to make any budget work, and, depending on who you want to sign, perhaps more than one cheap option. Cesar eliminates SS from the cheap option list.

 

When Hendry bought into Cesar, he pretty much bought into cheap production at 2B, maybe CF and definitely in at least 2 starting pitching slots.

 

 

eta: there needs to be number-crunching laid out and assumptions. I would be astonished -- but happy -- if the Trib raised payroll going into next season. The [url-http://www.thechicagonationalleagueballclub.com/]Chicago National League Ball Club[/url] blog has been doing initial cuts of next year's budget. A lot is unknown at this time.

 

Your post got me interested to see exactly what our financial obligations were for next year and I found something that I find very interesting. Going by the contracts on the site you provided, I found that we likely can afford some big time acquisitions in the offseason even after the Izturis trade. These salary calculations may not be 100% correct but I believe they are nearly complete.

Lineup

RF- Jones 5m

CF-

LF-

3B-Aramis 11m

2B-

SS-Izturis 4.5m

1B-Lee 13m

C-Barrett 4m

Bench

Murton 330k

Perez 2.5m

Blanco 1.5 m

Pagan 327k

Theriot 300k

Starting Pitchers

Z 7.5m

Prior 4m

Marshall 300k

Marmol 300k

Guz/Hill/etc 300k

Relievers

Wuertz 355k

Eyre 3.5m

Howry 4m

Dempster 5m

Wood 2m

Ohman 610k

Rusch 2m

 

This comes to a total of 72.5m with holes at CF, LF, and 2B still left to fill. I projected what I thought was likely to cost us to bring in big acquisitions at those spots and I think I'm fairly accurate on these.

 

CF- Pierre 6m

LF- Carlos Lee 12m

2B- Soriano 12m

 

For a total of 30m, bringing our overall salary total for 2007 up to 102.5m. This is higher than our current payroll and would demand a 3 or 4 million increase in max payroll but I think the Tribune would consent if we could pull in these guys. If we wanted, we could also go cheaper at second and sign a veteran pitcher (Zito, etc) also. If anybody finds any discrepancies let me know but as far as I can tell and project this seems pretty accurate.

[baseball7897]

Neither. I want Nomar back. We need him. Hell, I need him. I'm a mess without him. I miss him so damn much. I miss being with him, I miss being near him. I miss his laugh. I miss his scent; I miss his musk. When this all gets sorted out, I think him and me and Mia should get an apartment together.

 

I just shot hot coffee out of my nose, thank you. This is the funniest post I've ever read. It could also be the creepiest, I'm not sure. Maybe that's what makes it so damn funny.

 

The thought of bringing Nomar back makes me sick. Yeah he is having a solid year in LA, but he is always injured. He burned the cubs twice in 04, and 05. Cannot count on him for a full season. The only postion where he could stay healthy is at 1B. Last I checked, D-Lee will be the 1B for the Cubs next year.

[RationalSoxFan]

Neither. I want Nomar back. We need him. Hell, I need him. I'm a mess without him. I miss him so damn much. I miss being with him, I miss being near him. I miss his laugh. I miss his scent; I miss his musk. When this all gets sorted out, I think him and me and Mia should get an apartment together.

 

I just shot hot coffee out of my nose, thank you. This is the funniest post I've ever read. It could also be the creepiest, I'm not sure. Maybe that's what makes it so damn funny.

 

The thought of bringing Nomar back makes me sick. Yeah he is having a solid year in LA, but he is always injured. He burned the cubs twice in 04, and 05. Cannot count on him for a full season. The only postion where he could stay healthy is at 1B. Last I checked, D-Lee will be the 1B for the Cubs next year.

Nomar could probably play with one leg and outproduce Izturis.

[1908]

CF- Pierre 6m

LF- Carlos Lee 12m

2B- Soriano 12m

I think all three of these salaries are on the low side.

 

Juan will get significantly more than a $25K raise. He doesn't deserve it, but he'll get it.

 

Lee and Soriano could easily be $2M to $3M a year higher.

 

All it takes is one team on the open market willing to overpay, and that happens year after year after year.

[RationalSoxFan]

I could easily see Soriano getting 5/75 and Lee getting 5/70.

[dew1679666265]

CF- Pierre 6m

LF- Carlos Lee 12m

2B- Soriano 12m

I think all three of these salaries are on the low side.

 

Juan will get significantly more than a $25K raise. He doesn't deserve it, but he'll get it.

 

Lee and Soriano could easily be $2M to $3M a year higher.

 

All it takes is one team on the open market willing to overpay, and that happens year after year after year.

 

I agree with Lee and Soriano possibly ending up with more but I wouldn't pay much if any higher for either, I'd look for another option because neither is worth more. Pierre I think might take a smaller raise on a one year deal hoping to net a huge contract after a big year. Also, my main point was that we can still have some type of positive upgrade to the team even after the Izturis trade.

[dew1679666265]

I could easily see Soriano getting 5/75 and Lee getting 5/70.

 

That's very possible and if that's the case I would look for someone worth the money we'd be paying them. The good thing is that the Yankees are probably out of the bidding for Lee after acquiring Abreu.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

Neither. I want Nomar back. We need him. Hell, I need him. I'm a mess without him. I miss him so damn much. I miss being with him, I miss being near him. I miss his laugh. I miss his scent; I miss his musk. When this all gets sorted out, I think him and me and Mia should get an apartment together.

 

I just shot hot coffee out of my nose, thank you. This is the funniest post I've ever read. It could also be the creepiest, I'm not sure. Maybe that's what makes it so damn funny.

 

The thought of bringing Nomar back makes me sick. Yeah he is having a solid year in LA, but he is always injured. He burned the cubs twice in 04, and 05. Cannot count on him for a full season. The only postion where he could stay healthy is at 1B. Last I checked, D-Lee will be the 1B for the Cubs next year.

Nomar could probably play with one leg and outproduce Izturis.

 

Wasn't it because of Nomar's Achilles injury that the Cubs picked up Neifi Perez off waivers?

[ResidentRoyalsFan]

If I can throw this into perspective for you guys. Our SS right now is Berroa. He isn't very good; swings too much, and is inconsistent in the field. However, I would still take him over Ronnie Cedeno. I would much rather have Izturis at SS than Berroa due to his glove and legs. Berroa may be the best hitter of the bunch (marginally), but I'd take Izturis.

 

Which means I'd also take Izturis over Cedeno.