Is Sosa one of the top 5 Cubs ever?

[TruffleShuffle]

sorry, but many of us judge Sammy by Sammy, not by what is going on with the current Cubs team. some of us were amazed by his baseball exploits during the six year run, yet were not big fans (he was never at any point my favorite Cub). and most of the people in the thread must not be in a sour mood, because they love Sammy and think he should be on the list.

 

I was a huge Sammy fan. I loved watching him sprint out to RF, and the way he'd interact with the fans in the bleachers. I loved the production he gave the Cubs during his peak. I think it'd be really hard to exclude him from a list of top 10 Cubs of all-time, but there are valid arguments to exclude him from the top 5. It's like making a top 5 of Yankee players. You'd probably go with Ruth, Gehrig, Berra, DiMaggio and Mantle. This isn't to diminish what players like Ford and Jeter did, but they're just not quite good enough to be among the very best in Yankee history.

[jjgman21]

sorry, but many of us judge Sammy by Sammy, not by what is going on with the current Cubs team. some of us were amazed by his baseball exploits during the six year run, yet were not big fans (he was never at any point my favorite Cub). and most of the people in the thread must not be in a sour mood, because they love Sammy and think he should be on the list.

 

....and then there's Truffle.

 

I was a huge Sammy fan. I loved watching him sprint out to RF, and the way he'd interact with the fans in the bleachers. I loved the production he gave the Cubs during his peak. I think it'd be really hard to exclude him from a list of top 10 Cubs of all-time, but there are valid arguments to exclude him from the top 5. It's like making a top 5 of Yankee players. You'd probably go with Ruth, Gehrig, Berra, DiMaggio and Mantle. This isn't to diminish what players like Ford and Jeter did, but they're just not quite good enough to be among the very best in Yankee history.

 

fixed.

[rocket]

Wow, Sammy's career numbers aren't as amazing as I expected it to be. His career OPS+, while still good, wasn't as high as I thought it would be.

 

Still though, you'd think the guy with the 5th most homeruns in baseball history would be a choice.

[Sammy Sofa]

Santo better than Sosa? Please.

 

Thanks for the convincing counter-argument.

 

I don't really have the time right now to give too convincing of an argument, but I'll say a couple things.

 

Ron Santo was a very good ballplayer, an admittedly better one than I had always thought after I just checked his numbers again. But to say that he was better than Sosa is just ridiculous. First off, can we please throw this WARP crap out the window? We're simply talking about a ballplayer, not who was better at his respective position relative to his peers, but the "greatest Cub."

 

Sammy's career OPS: 882, which is 122 points higher than the league average.

Santo's career OPS: 826, which is 93 points better than the league average.

Also, Sammy's career OPS+ is better than Santo's.

 

Another thing which begs discussion is what makes a player "great." Is it simply being a monster at the plate? Or are more variables involved? Does being a baseball icon make you greater than a non-icon? I think so, and Sammy clearly was an icon during his glory years. He was one of the top 2-3 hitters in all of baseball from 1998 to 2001. I'll tell you right now that I don't know how big of a "star" Santo was, but based on his stats, I'm going to wager that he wasn't ever one of the game's elite players. Good, certainly. But one of the best? I doubt it. I'm sorry, and its just my opinion, but I think its absurd to say that Ron Santo was a greater Cub than Sammy Sosa.

 

Santo was never caught corking.

 

Ron wins.

 

I think Sosa should be an option, but I wouldn't personally put him in my top 5. Top 10, definitely, but not in the top 5. And not above Santo, and you can discount all the emotion from that. Santo is a greater player AND icon for this team, for all time.

[jjgman21]

Wow, Sammy's career numbers aren't as amazing as I expected it to be. His career OPS+, while still good, wasn't as high as I thought it would be.

 

Still though, you'd think the guy with the 5th most homeruns in baseball history would be a choice.

 

I think its a generational thing. for alot of people old enough to have been at least in your teens and seen his early years, especially those with the White Sox, but even those with the Cubs, it's hard to get the flailing idiot he could be out of your head. waiting year after year for him to take a pitch and not swing and miss at every single low and away slider. you remember dealing with his injuries and stealing at a terrible percentage and seeing years like 1993 where he there were always tons of guys on base ahead of him, and he hit 33 HRs, yet managed to knock in only 93 runs (clutch may not exist, but the early version of Sammy Sosa presented some pretty compelling evidence of anti-clutch). you remember knowing that walks are valuable long before most ever heard of Bill James because you saw how destructive Sammy Sosa's unwillingness to take one was ... and the maddening amounts of strikeouts (again, this was before knowing strikeouts weren't that big of a deal). you saw a you also remember that he wasn't always the hustler he was made out to be and that the 2004 incarnation was the same guy we saw for 6 years before 1998.

 

 

if you only became an educated baseball fan around 1996 or so, you think he was undeniably great. if you became in educated baseball fan sometime thereafter, he's a god.

 

I also think his cache is hurt by his generation. yes, he's fifth all time, but about 65% came in the span of only a few years, yet he only won one MVP and two HR crowns. during those years, he was incredible, but wasn't even a top 5 player in the NL most of those six or so years (the numbers bare this out. others in baseball were doing just as much at the same time.

[rocket]

Wow, Sammy's career numbers aren't as amazing as I expected it to be. His career OPS+, while still good, wasn't as high as I thought it would be.

 

Still though, you'd think the guy with the 5th most homeruns in baseball history would be a choice.

 

I think its a generational thing. for alot of people old enough to have been at least in your teens and seen his early years, especially those with the White Sox, but even those with the Cubs, it's hard to get the flailing idiot he could be out of your head. waiting year after year for him to take a pitch and not swing and miss at every single low and away slider. you remember dealing with his injuries and stealing at a terrible percentage and seeing years like 1993 where he there were always tons of guys on base ahead of him, and he hit 33 HRs, yet managed to knock in only 93 runs (clutch may not exist, but the early version of Sammy Sosa presented some pretty compelling evidence of anti-clutch). you remember knowing that walks are valuable long before most ever heard of Bill James because you saw how destructive Sammy Sosa's unwillingness to take one was ... and the maddening amounts of strikeouts (again, this was before knowing strikeouts weren't that big of a deal). you saw a you also remember that he wasn't always the hustler he was made out to be and that the 2004 incarnation was the same guy we saw for 6 years before 1998.

 

 

if you only became an educated baseball fan around 1996 or so, you think he was undeniably great. if you became in educated baseball fan sometime thereafter, he's a god.

 

I also think his cache is hurt by his generation. yes, he's fifth all time, but about 65% came in the span of only a few years, yet he only won one MVP and two HR crowns. during those years, he was incredible, but wasn't even a top 5 player in the NL most of those six or so years (the numbers bare this out. others in baseball were doing just as much at the same time.

 

Reminds me of how, when I was a kid, I loved Shawon Dunston and told everyone I knew that he's the best SS in baseball.

 

About a year ago, I looked up his stats, and holy crap, he was awful. If he was on the Cubs now, he'd be my least favorite player ever. But as a kid, I thought he was amazing.

[jjgman21]

I'll recind what I just said about not being a top five player during MOST of his good years.

 

alot of the case for Sosa over Santo is he had a better peak. interesting stat on this.

 

top ten league OPS+ years

 

Sosa

1998-160-4

1999-141-10

2000-169-3

2001-201-2

2002-160-5

 

Santo

Adjusted OPS+

1964-164-2

1965-146-6

1966-161-4

1967-153-6

 

Sosa's 2001 was something special, but his peak really wasn't all that much more impressive than Santo's. another interesting stat:

 

top ten league OBP

 

Sosa

2001-.437-3

 

Santo

1964-.398-1

1965-.378-7

1966-.412-1

1967-.395-6

1968-.354-10

1969-.384-8

1972-.391-3

 

I hope noone claiming Sosa > Santo will turn around and argue OBP is more important than SLG in another thread.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Cubs aren't the only ones with some interesting choices...

 

Dale Murphy is conspicuously absent from the Braves ballot, and instead is replaced with Chipper Jones and John Smoltz. Also missing from the Braves ballot is Greg Maddux....I'd think he's a better Brave than Smoltz.

 

Frank Thomas is on the White Sox ballot. Personally, I think it would be funny if he is chosen. I think I'll cast a few votes for him.

 

The Royals left off Quizenberry. While Brett is the runaway choice there, I'd have placed Quiz ahead of Sweeney.

 

The Marlins list makes me laugh.

 

Piazza makes the Mets' list but not the Dodgers'. That's strange to me.

 

Neither Canseco nor McGwire make the A's list. McGwire is also absent from the Cardinals list. Maybe MLB asked teams to ignore players with connections to steroids.

 

Alex Rodriguez makes no one's list. While I can understand his being left off the Yankees' list. (That must have been hard choosing only five from that team.) You'd think the Rangers or Mariners could have made room for him. The Rangers found room for Rusty Greer while the Mariners found room for Jamie Moyer!

 

And speaking of the Rangers' list, apparently they didn't want to deal with the old Washington Senator days since Frank Howard would have been a better choice than Greer. I liked Greer, but best all-time Ranger?!?! Please. And where the hell is Juan Gonzalez on this list? His absence is troubling.

 

Bonds made the Giants list, so at least one team doesn't mid putting a juiced up slugger on the ballot.

 

The Nationals list though is the most messed up. Apparently they consider the Expos as part of the heritage which is nice. They do have Gary Carter on the ballot along with Rusty Staub. But putting Vidro and Schnieder there ahead of Andre Dawson and Tim Raines is simply criminal.

[jjgman21]

Wow, Sammy's career numbers aren't as amazing as I expected it to be. His career OPS+, while still good, wasn't as high as I thought it would be.

 

Still though, you'd think the guy with the 5th most homeruns in baseball history would be a choice.

 

I think its a generational thing. for alot of people old enough to have been at least in your teens and seen his early years, especially those with the White Sox, but even those with the Cubs, it's hard to get the flailing idiot he could be out of your head. waiting year after year for him to take a pitch and not swing and miss at every single low and away slider. you remember dealing with his injuries and stealing at a terrible percentage and seeing years like 1993 where he there were always tons of guys on base ahead of him, and he hit 33 HRs, yet managed to knock in only 93 runs (clutch may not exist, but the early version of Sammy Sosa presented some pretty compelling evidence of anti-clutch). you remember knowing that walks are valuable long before most ever heard of Bill James because you saw how destructive Sammy Sosa's unwillingness to take one was ... and the maddening amounts of strikeouts (again, this was before knowing strikeouts weren't that big of a deal). you saw a you also remember that he wasn't always the hustler he was made out to be and that the 2004 incarnation was the same guy we saw for 6 years before 1998.

 

 

if you only became an educated baseball fan around 1996 or so, you think he was undeniably great. if you became in educated baseball fan sometime thereafter, he's a god.

 

I also think his cache is hurt by his generation. yes, he's fifth all time, but about 65% came in the span of only a few years, yet he only won one MVP and two HR crowns. during those years, he was incredible, but wasn't even a top 5 player in the NL most of those six or so years (the numbers bare this out. others in baseball were doing just as much at the same time.

 

Reminds me of how, when I was a kid, I loved Shawon Dunston and told everyone I knew that he's the best SS in baseball.

 

About a year ago, I looked up his stats, and holy crap, he was awful. If he was on the Cubs now, he'd be my least favorite player ever. But as a kid, I thought he was amazing.

 

exactamundo!

[Andy]

Santo was never caught corking.

 

Ron wins.

Cork doesn't help you hit the ball any farther and may actually be a hindrance to home run hitters. It's effect is entirely psychological.

 

Ron was outstanding, but Sammy was better.

[Andy]

I do have a non-sarcastic question for you though: why wasn't Santo a first-ballot hall of famer? If he's the 6th best shortstop and someone like Sosa, 19th RF I think you said(?) is no question, HOF material, potentially first ballot (assuming no roid stuff comes out) why not Santo?

 

I think you're asking this question to the wrong group. There probably aren't a lot of Cub fans who believe Santo does not belong in the HOF, excluding everything he has done since he retired.

 

Right, but can everyone be THAT wrong?

You're asking this about the Baseball Writers of America, right? Remember, these guys inducted Bill Mazeroski into the Hall basically for one swing of his bat. (career OPS: .666)

[ConstableRabbit]

I do have a non-sarcastic question for you though: why wasn't Santo a first-ballot hall of famer? If he's the 6th best shortstop and someone like Sosa, 19th RF I think you said(?) is no question, HOF material, potentially first ballot (assuming no roid stuff comes out) why not Santo?

 

I think you're asking this question to the wrong group. There probably aren't a lot of Cub fans who believe Santo does not belong in the HOF, excluding everything he has done since he retired.

 

Right, but can everyone be THAT wrong?

You're asking this about the Baseball Writers of America, right? Remember, these guys inducted Bill Mazeroski into the Hall basically for one swing of his bat. (career OPS: .666)

 

True.

 

Oh, and now that my error has been quoted 5924893215 times -- yes, I know that Santo wasn't a shortstop. I have no idea WHY I wrote shortstop, when i put 3B in another place and yes, I apologize for the love of the Cubs! :D

[TruffleShuffle]

I do have a non-sarcastic question for you though: why wasn't Santo a first-ballot hall of famer? If he's the 6th best shortstop and someone like Sosa, 19th RF I think you said(?) is no question, HOF material, potentially first ballot (assuming no roid stuff comes out) why not Santo?

 

I think you're asking this question to the wrong group. There probably aren't a lot of Cub fans who believe Santo does not belong in the HOF, excluding everything he has done since he retired.

 

Right, but can everyone be THAT wrong?

You're asking this about the Baseball Writers of America, right? Remember, these guys inducted Bill Mazeroski into the Hall basically for one swing of his bat. (career OPS: .666)

 

No they didn't, the Veterans Committee put him in the Hall. They're way more clueless than the BBWAA, who are only mostly clueless.

[Sammy Sofa]

Santo was never caught corking.

 

Ron wins.

Cork doesn't help you hit the ball any farther and may actually be a hindrance to home run hitters. It's effect is entirely psychological.

 

Ron was outstanding, but Sammy was better.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the stuff works...we all know it has an extremely negative connotation in MLB, and is pretty much one of the worst things you can do on the field. If it doesn't actually help, it just makes Sammy look even stupider for getting caught with it.

 

I'm a young guy, Sammy is responsible for some of the greatest moments I've seen as a Cubs fan and probably will ever see...but the overall package of "Sammy Sosa, ballplayer" weighs him down below guys like Santo.

[ConstableRabbit]

Santo was never caught corking.

 

Ron wins.

Cork doesn't help you hit the ball any farther and may actually be a hindrance to home run hitters. It's effect is entirely psychological.

 

Ron was outstanding, but Sammy was better.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the stuff works...we all know it has an extremely negative connotation in MLB, and is pretty much one of the worst things you can do on the field. If it doesn't actually help, it just makes Sammy look even stupider for getting caught with it.

 

I'm a young guy, Sammy is responsible for some of the greatest moments I've seen as a Cubs fan and probably will ever see...but the overall package of "Sammy Sosa, ballplayer" weighs him down below guys like Santo.

 

What about the intense humanitarian work he did following the hurricane in the Caribbean (I think it might have been "Mitch)? He was recognized by the president at the State of the Union address. That's pretty impressive off-the-field behavior.

 

He did one thing wrong and it was overhyped in order to run him out of town.

[thedaymen]

 

He did one thing wrong and it was overhyped in order to run him out of town.

 

The Cubs would never do such a thing! Just ask Mark Grace.

[soccer10k]

I would definatly remove Jenkins from the list partly because he played a bunch of years with other teams and because his career ERA+ is 115. I would be hesitant to add Hack Wilson to the list because of the first reason listed for Jenkins. I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

[oldstyle81]

he should be in there

[SouthSideRyan]

 

He did one thing wrong and it was overhyped in order to run him out of town.

 

The Cubs would never do such a thing! Just ask Mark Grace.

 

Or don't, and he'll come tell you anyways.

[hardcorecubfan]

The Cubs are wrong then.

 

I love Billy, but I'd probably bumb either him or Fergie off of the list.

 

You just can't ignore Sosa's on-field production.

 

sounds strange, because Sammy's on field defense was not even near sweet swinging Billy. the strike out ratio is better and none better to deep fly ball at crucial time than Billy.

[hardcorecubfan]

The Cubs are wrong then.

 

I love Billy, but I'd probably bumb either him or Fergie off of the list.

 

You just can't ignore Sosa's on-field production.

 

sounds strange, because Sammy's on field defense was not even near sweet swinging Billy. the strike out ratio is better and none better to deep fly ball at crucial time than Billy.

 

Soryy I do believe Sammy should be on also

[TruffleShuffle]

I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

 

I accept that people feel this way, but I'd like to see someone provide better empirical evidence that Sammy is better than people like Billy Williams or Santo.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

 

I accept that people feel this way, but I'd like to see someone provide better empirical evidence that Sammy is better than people like Billy Williams or Santo.

 

Similar career OPS+ to Santo, with a better prime.

[jjgman21]

I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

 

I accept that people feel this way, but I'd like to see someone provide better empirical evidence that Sammy is better than people like Billy Williams or Santo.

 

Similar career OPS+ to Santo, with a better prime.

 

see my post on the previous page. Sosa's peak wan NOT all that much better, and considering how close they are in OPS+, you can't say Sammy was better, then argue in a different thread that OBP is more important than SLG. Santo's far superior OBP more than makes up for that slight difference in OPS.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

 

I accept that people feel this way, but I'd like to see someone provide better empirical evidence that Sammy is better than people like Billy Williams or Santo.

 

Similar career OPS+ to Santo, with a better prime.

 

see my post on the previous page. Sosa's peak wan NOT all that much better, and considering how close they are in OPS+, you can't say Sammy was better, then argue in a different thread that OBP is more important than SLG. Santo's far superior OBP more than makes up for that slight difference in OPS.

 

It was a half-hearted attempt to be sure, I don't feel that strongly about it, just tried to give an answer for others to possibly work from. I think something has to be said that Sosa has the best two seasons of the pair, and his best season blows away anything Santo did in his career.

 

Sosa's best 5 seasons (OPS+): 201, 169, 160, 160, 141

Santo's best 5 seasons: 164, 161, 153, 146, 138