Taking Pitches?

[CubColtPacer]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

[Sammy Sofa]

They were swinging when 2-0 and 3-1. At bad pitches.

[BigbadB]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

The Cubs have zero patience at the plate. Today's opposing pitcher threw 86 pitches in 7 innings. That's 12 pitches per inning. For a whole game, that's 110 pitches. Go through the box scores of all the games they play and you will see this trend. Carlos Zambrano averages 111 pitches for 7 innings.

 

The Cub hitters are told to be aggressive, and they sure are. They don't draw walks, they make outs on the first pitch they see, and they are one of the worst hitting teams in the entire MLB. I don't think it's all that coincidental that they are horrible at the plate. It's a very poor philosophy that hasn't produced decent offensive results in the entire tenure of this management team.

[matt-o-meter19]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

Interesting analysis............About 3 weeks ago I looked at the top ten teams (per year) in OBP in the last 5 years. Between 40-50% of the top ten teams in OBP make the playoffs (since 2001).

 

If you look at the bottom ten teams, it's between 10-20% (with the 2003 Cubs as one of those teams.)

 

In addition, the 2005 White Sox were in the bottom 10% (and led AL in swinging at the first pitch in 2005).

 

I know you need to take into account pitching and defense, just thought I would throw these stats out there.

[bring stone back]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

People on this board have been complaining about this for quite some time. Depending on who you are and what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going after the first pitch if it's something you're looking for.

 

These guys know the scouting reports and what they're trying to do up there...swinging at the first pitch is NOT a bad thing.

[rocket]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

People on this board have been complaining about this for quite some time. Depending on who you are and what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going after the first pitch if it's something you're looking for.

 

These guys know the scouting reports and what they're trying to do up there...swinging at the first pitch is NOT a bad thing.

 

Swinging at the first pitch and getting out is one of the biggest wastes of an at-bat possible.

 

If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit, then fantastic. But if not, you just wasted your at bat.

[bring stone back]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

People on this board have been complaining about this for quite some time. Depending on who you are and what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going after the first pitch if it's something you're looking for.

 

These guys know the scouting reports and what they're trying to do up there...swinging at the first pitch is NOT a bad thing.

 

Swinging at the first pitch and getting out is one of the biggest wastes of an at-bat possible.

 

If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit, then fantastic. But if not, you just wasted your at bat.

 

That is absolutely ridiculous. It is one thing for your 1 and 2 hole hitters to be swinging at the first pitch since you'd like for them to take pitches and get on base. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with swinging at the first pitch IF it's what you're looking for and where you're looking for it.

 

I like your argument here by the way. If he gets a hit then it's okay, if not, it's a total waste. Sounds logical....

[stitchface]

if its where you want it, then you should hit it hard. virtually all of the great hitters in baseball take a lot of pitches - why? because pitchers often don't throw hittable pitches on the first pitch.

[BigbadB]

Interesting analysis............About 3 weeks ago I looked at the top ten teams (per year) in OBP in the last 5 years. Between 40-50% of the top ten teams in OBP make the playoffs (since 2001).

 

If you look at the bottom ten teams, it's between 10-20% (with the 2003 Cubs as one of those teams.)

 

In addition, the 2005 White Sox were in the bottom 10% (and led AL in swinging at the first pitch in 2005).

 

I know you need to take into account pitching and defense, just thought I would throw these stats out there.

 

I like that you brought this up. What do the 2005 White Sox and the 2003 Cubs have in common? What REALLY got both teams to the playoffs?

 

Pitching? YES!

 

I'd bet that most of the other 10-20% teams that finish in the bottom 10 teams in OBP all had pretty decent pitching. That, or they played in a really horrible division (Padres last year for example).

 

I suppose if you wanted to gamble your entire season on your pitching being healthy, you could do that. But, wouldn't it be a much better idea to build a strong pitching staff, and build a respectable offense as well. Oh, and maybe even provide some depth in case injuries pop up. And then while we're at it, find a manager who won't bat the worst possible options at the top of the batting order. These are just some of the keys to building a successful baseball team. By ignoring OBP, depth and someone who has a clue about how to fill out a line up card, when your only strength (pitching) all goes on the DL, you may not end up being the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked. Instead, you may still have a competitive team that might stay in the thick of the race until the pitching is all healthy and ready to dominate. As it stands, it wouldn't matter if Christy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, Cy Young and Roger Clemens were starting every game with this Cub team, because most of the guys that the Cubs employed to swing the bat aren't any better hitters than the pitching staff.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How often is the first pitch a pitch worth swinging at?

 

The answer is not very often, or at the very least much less often than the Cubs swing at them. The point of having an approach to hitting is to get a good pitch to hit(which is what BSB is getting at). Problem is there aren't that many thrown when the pitcher isn't behind in the count.

[Andy]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

People on this board have been complaining about this for quite some time. Depending on who you are and what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going after the first pitch if it's something you're looking for.

 

These guys know the scouting reports and what they're trying to do up there...swinging at the first pitch is NOT a bad thing.

 

Swinging at the first pitch and getting out is one of the biggest wastes of an at-bat possible.

 

If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit, then fantastic. But if not, you just wasted your at bat.

 

That is absolutely ridiculous. It is one thing for your 1 and 2 hole hitters to be swinging at the first pitch since you'd like for them to take pitches and get on base. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with swinging at the first pitch IF it's what you're looking for and where you're looking for it.

 

I like your argument here by the way. If he gets a hit then it's okay, if not, it's a total waste. Sounds logical....

The point is there is absolutely no reason to ever swing at the first pitch unless you are sitting on a pitch and you get it, or maybe if you are working against a guy like Greg Maddux who rarely strays from the zone. And there is certainly no reason ever to swing at 2-0 or 3-1 pitches unless they are right there, and there is definitely no reason possible to swing at the first pitch after a walk (particularly on a walk where the pitcher shows an obvious lack of control), or at the first pitch after the pitcher makes an out, especially if it's the second out.

 

And what the people on this board have been complaining about, quite justly IMO, is the fact that the Cubs have a tendency to do swing at all of those types of first pitches, and almost never do anything with them.

[stitchface]

quite simply - only swing at pitches you can hit hard.

[bring stone back]

if its where you want it, then you should hit it hard. virtually all of the great hitters in baseball take a lot of pitches - why? because pitchers often don't throw hittable pitches on the first pitch.

 

That isn't always the case. Some at bats the most hittable pitch you see will be the first one. The argument I'm making is that swinging at the first pitch and getting out is not a wasted at bat.

 

If you hit a hard ground ball to the shortstop is that a wasted at bat?

[Mizzou]

I have no problem with players swinging at the first pitch - if it's a good pitch to hit. Taking a pitch just for the sake of taking a pitch is stupid.

 

By the way, welcome to the board CubColtPacer.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Mizzou

[Andy]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

Forgot to mention, welcome to the forums! And a solid first post.

[bring stone back]

How often is the first pitch a pitch worth swinging at?

 

The answer is not very often, or at the very least much less often than the Cubs swing at them. The point of having an approach to hitting is to get a good pitch to hit(which is what BSB is getting at). Problem is there aren't that many thrown when the pitcher isn't behind in the count.

 

I'm sure someone here has someone fascinating stat to back this up, but some people on this board are acting like swinging at the first pitch is like swinging at a pitchout or something.

 

Isn't it strange that pitchers and pitching coaches preach about first pitch strikes and the importance of getting ahead in the count, but it's stupid for hitters to swing at the first pitch?? Makes sense to me.....

[BigbadB]

if its where you want it, then you should hit it hard. virtually all of the great hitters in baseball take a lot of pitches - why? because pitchers often don't throw hittable pitches on the first pitch.

 

That isn't always the case. Some at bats the most hittable pitch you see will be the first one. The argument I'm making is that swinging at the first pitch and getting out is not a wasted at bat.

 

If you hit a hard ground ball to the shortstop is that a wasted at bat?

 

I'm sure not every team in baseball knows all the Cubs hitting tendencies as much as we all do. However, one only has to look at the stats for these guys to see that they are aggressive. So, you are the opposing pitcher and you're facing the Cubs.

 

What are you tossing up there on the first pitch against a team that loves to swing at the first pitch?

[bring stone back]

I saw a lot of complaints about taking pitches in the game thread today. We did hit miserably..ok even worse than that, but I'm wondering where this is coming from today? Some people even asked how many players had hit the first pitch at them..well, not really that many today.

 

1st pitches today

11 strikes looking

13 balls

1 hit

3 outs

2 strikes swinging (Marshall 6th, Ramirez 9th)

2 fouls (Jones 8th, Barrett 9th)

 

So that's 32 first pitches...and only 8 swung at.

 

In fact, out of the 24 people left, only 7 took a swing at the 2nd pitch. So that means 17 of the 32 batters on the Cubs side took the first 2 pitches in the at bat....as opposed to only 13 out of 29 Astros who did the same.

I don't think the problem was that we weren't patient in this game..I think the problem is that we got into hitters counts, got pitches over the heart of the plate, and could still only hit weak ground balls...which is sad, but doesn't show a lack of patience.

 

People on this board have been complaining about this for quite some time. Depending on who you are and what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going after the first pitch if it's something you're looking for.

 

These guys know the scouting reports and what they're trying to do up there...swinging at the first pitch is NOT a bad thing.

 

Swinging at the first pitch and getting out is one of the biggest wastes of an at-bat possible.

 

If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit, then fantastic. But if not, you just wasted your at bat.

 

That is absolutely ridiculous. It is one thing for your 1 and 2 hole hitters to be swinging at the first pitch since you'd like for them to take pitches and get on base. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with swinging at the first pitch IF it's what you're looking for and where you're looking for it.

 

I like your argument here by the way. If he gets a hit then it's okay, if not, it's a total waste. Sounds logical....

The point is there is absolutely no reason to ever swing at the first pitch unless you are sitting on a pitch and you get it, or maybe if you are working against a guy like Greg Maddux who rarely strays from the zone. And there is certainly no reason ever to swing at 2-0 or 3-1 pitches unless they are right there, and there is definitely no reason possible to swing at the first pitch after a walk (particularly on a walk where the pitcher shows an obvious lack of control), or at the first pitch after the pitcher makes an out, especially if it's the second out.

 

And what the people on this board have been complaining about, quite justly IMO, is the fact that the Cubs have a tendency to do swing at all of those types of first pitches, and almost never do anything with them.

 

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Know the situation, the pitcher and the scouting report. Be aggressive when the situation dictates.

[Andy]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Know the situation, the pitcher and the scouting report. Be aggressive when the situation dictates.

I think the bolded is exactly what we all want to see. Our problem is that the Cubs are often aggressive when the situation dictates the exact opposite.

[bring stone back]

if its where you want it, then you should hit it hard. virtually all of the great hitters in baseball take a lot of pitches - why? because pitchers often don't throw hittable pitches on the first pitch.

 

That isn't always the case. Some at bats the most hittable pitch you see will be the first one. The argument I'm making is that swinging at the first pitch and getting out is not a wasted at bat.

 

If you hit a hard ground ball to the shortstop is that a wasted at bat?

 

I'm sure not every team in baseball knows all the Cubs hitting tendencies as much as we all do. However, one only has to look at the stats for these guys to see that they are aggressive. So, you are the opposing pitcher and you're facing the Cubs.

 

What are you tossing up there on the first pitch against a team that loves to swing at the first pitch?

 

Is this a serious question?

[bring stone back]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Know the situation, the pitcher and the scouting report. Be aggressive when the situation dictates.

I think the bolded is exactly what we all want to see. Our problem is that the Cubs are often aggressive when the situation dictates the exact opposite.

 

I won't argue with that, but I will argue that swinging at the first pitch is a worthless at bat. That's a foolish argument.

[stitchface]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Really? Sometime go look up batting averages and slugging percentages on 2-0 and 3-1 counts.

[bring stone back]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Really? Sometime go look up batting averages and slugging percentages on 2-0 and 3-1 counts.

 

I'm sure you can supply a real fascinating stat for me.

 

I realize when the count is in your favor you'll have better results, but can you supply some stats for me when the hitter is consistently facing 1-2 and 0-2 counts, as well?

[rocket]

How often is the first pitch a pitch worth swinging at?

 

The answer is not very often, or at the very least much less often than the Cubs swing at them. The point of having an approach to hitting is to get a good pitch to hit(which is what BSB is getting at). Problem is there aren't that many thrown when the pitcher isn't behind in the count.

 

I'm sure someone here has someone fascinating stat to back this up, but some people on this board are acting like swinging at the first pitch is like swinging at a pitchout or something.

 

Isn't it strange that pitchers and pitching coaches preach about first pitch strikes and the importance of getting ahead in the count, but it's stupid for hitters to swing at the first pitch?? Makes sense to me.....

 

You're making it an either/or situation when it isn't. No one has ever said that it's completely unacceptable to swing at a first pitch, which seems to be what you're implying.

 

SOMETIMES it's a good idea to swing at the first pitch. No one here is going to deny this.

 

USUALLY it behooves the hitter to work the count.

 

That's all anyone has been saying.

[rocket]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Know the situation, the pitcher and the scouting report. Be aggressive when the situation dictates.

I think the bolded is exactly what we all want to see. Our problem is that the Cubs are often aggressive when the situation dictates the exact opposite.

 

I won't argue with that, but I will argue that swinging at the first pitch is a worthless at bat. That's a foolish argument.

 

What exactly is accomplished when making an out on 1 pitch then?