Taking Pitches?

[stitchface]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Really? Sometime go look up batting averages and slugging percentages on 2-0 and 3-1 counts.

 

I'm sure you can supply a real fascinating stat for me.

 

I realize when the count is in your favor you'll have better results, but can you supply some stats for me when the hitter is consistently facing 1-2 and 0-2 counts, as well?

 

I'm not looking up anything for you. Basically you are just changing the subject. As far as 1-2 and 0-2 counts, I agree hitters hit worse. All the more reason to not swing and miss at first pitches out of the zone. You seem to be missing the point which is, quite simply, only swing at pitches you can hit hard. rolling over on a first pitch is worthless. so is rolling over on a 7th pitch but at least you made the pitcher work and saw some pitches that may benefit you in your next at bat.

[BigbadB]

Is this a serious question?

 

Absolutely. You are the opposing pitcher. You're facing the Cubs and they are famous for getting out of innings in under 10 pitches.

 

What are you throwing up there on the first pitch? I'm throwing a pitcher's pitch. I'm throwing something up there that they can't drive.

 

What did pitchers do on the first pitch when Ryne Sandberg was at the plate? A lot of them grooved one in there. They knew he wouldn't swing at it no matter how good it looked.

 

And if the Cubs hitting style is something you approve of, do you believe it's only a fluke that they are in last place in nearly every offensive category?

 

Boston is a patient team. Cincinnati is a patient team. They score runs at will. They win games they probably don't deserve to win because the offense carries them. Is Boston or Cincinnati's offense a horrible thing?

 

Cincinnati has given up just as many runs as the Cubs, yet they've nearly outscored the Cubs by 100 runs. Who is where in the standings?

 

As good as the White Sox pitching was last year, they didn't just sit on their hands going into 2006. They went out and improved their OBP and SLG. And they look like an even better team this year. They are well balanced this year. The Cubs? Yeah, their balanced too. But, not in a good way. They have bad pitching and bad hitting.

[bring stone back]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Know the situation, the pitcher and the scouting report. Be aggressive when the situation dictates.

I think the bolded is exactly what we all want to see. Our problem is that the Cubs are often aggressive when the situation dictates the exact opposite.

 

I won't argue with that, but I will argue that swinging at the first pitch is a worthless at bat. That's a foolish argument.

 

What exactly is accomplished when making an out on 1 pitch then?

 

Hitting the ball hard somewhere, a sacrifice fly, moving a runner along. Three things that come to mind.

 

This isn't a playstation game or something. As a hitter, you try to hit the ball hard somewhere. Unless you're Ichiro, you can't control exactly where the ball goes.

 

I have absolutely no problem with our clean up hitter getting a first pitch to hit and hitting the ball hard somewhere and getting out.

[stitchface]

do you have a problem if he rolls an outside pitch right back to the pitcher for an easy 1-6-3 DP? I agree if he hits it hard, I have no complaint.

[bring stone back]

How often is the first pitch a pitch worth swinging at?

 

The answer is not very often, or at the very least much less often than the Cubs swing at them. The point of having an approach to hitting is to get a good pitch to hit(which is what BSB is getting at). Problem is there aren't that many thrown when the pitcher isn't behind in the count.

 

I'm sure someone here has someone fascinating stat to back this up, but some people on this board are acting like swinging at the first pitch is like swinging at a pitchout or something.

 

Isn't it strange that pitchers and pitching coaches preach about first pitch strikes and the importance of getting ahead in the count, but it's stupid for hitters to swing at the first pitch?? Makes sense to me.....

 

You're making it an either/or situation when it isn't. No one has ever said that it's completely unacceptable to swing at a first pitch, which seems to be what you're implying.

 

SOMETIMES it's a good idea to swing at the first pitch. No one here is going to deny this.

 

USUALLY it behooves the hitter to work the count.

 

That's all anyone has been saying.

 

I'm trying to have a discussion with you. Your argument on page one was just foolish. If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit then fantastic, if you get out, it's a waste.

 

As a hitter, you can't control where the defense is playing, where exactly the ball goes, etc.

[BigbadB]

I have absolutely no problem with our clean up hitter getting a first pitch to hit and hitting the ball hard somewhere and getting out.

 

I don't have a problem with it when it happens occasionally. But, each time you make an out on that "pitcher's pitch", you gave up on any opportunity to be on the receiving end of a "mistake pitch" that you could have driven out of the ball park. You know, the slider that hung, the fastball that didn't have any movement. The inside fastball that ended up right down broadway, etc...

 

And if you can actually work a count into your favor, the increased chances that you can guess accurately what will be thrown next.

[rocket]

 

Hitting the ball hard somewhere, a sacrifice fly, moving a runner along. Three things that come to mind.

 

This isn't a playstation game or something. As a hitter, you try to hit the ball hard somewhere. Unless you're Ichiro, you can't control exactly where the ball goes.

 

I have absolutely no problem with our clean up hitter getting a first pitch to hit and hitting the ball hard somewhere and getting out.

 

The opposing pitcher's arm has no problem with it either.

 

It's the same thing with some of the team's philosophy on stolen bases. If you think you can do it, then by all means go for it, but prepare to get hell if it fails. Same thing with first pitch swinging. If the pitch looks great and it looks like you can drive the ball, then by God swing the bat. But if you get out, accept the fact that you wasted your at bat.

[bring stone back]

At the major league level, pitchers aren't going to groove some batting practice fastball even if they're down 2-0 or 3-1. Being "right there" is a relative term.

 

Really? Sometime go look up batting averages and slugging percentages on 2-0 and 3-1 counts.

 

I'm sure you can supply a real fascinating stat for me.

 

I realize when the count is in your favor you'll have better results, but can you supply some stats for me when the hitter is consistently facing 1-2 and 0-2 counts, as well?

 

I'm not looking up anything for you. Basically you are just changing the subject. As far as 1-2 and 0-2 counts, I agree hitters hit worse. All the more reason to not swing and miss at first pitches out of the zone. You seem to be missing the point which is, quite simply, only swing at pitches you can hit hard. rolling over on a first pitch is worthless. so is rolling over on a 7th pitch but at least you made the pitcher work and saw some pitches that may benefit you in your next at bat.

 

Have you ever played baseball? Swing at something only if you can hit it hard....good concept but it's not quite that easy.

[rocket]

I'm trying to have a discussion with you. Your argument on page one was just foolish. If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit then fantastic, if you get out, it's a waste.

 

As a hitter, you can't control where the defense is playing, where exactly the ball goes, etc.

 

I'm sorry I'm being so difficult.

 

What's so foolish about the argument?

 

Hitter sees a meatball on pitch #1, hits it, flies out to center field. Pitcher only uses 1 pitch.

 

Hitter sees a meatball on pitch #8, hits it, flies out to center field. Pitcher uses 8 pitches, hitter sees a lot of the different type of pitches the hitter throws, can give info on what all the pitches look like to his teammates, etc. At least something minor was accomplished.

 

My point stands, and I still don't see the foolishness of it. A 1 pitch out is a worthless at bat.

[bring stone back]

 

Hitting the ball hard somewhere, a sacrifice fly, moving a runner along. Three things that come to mind.

 

This isn't a playstation game or something. As a hitter, you try to hit the ball hard somewhere. Unless you're Ichiro, you can't control exactly where the ball goes.

 

I have absolutely no problem with our clean up hitter getting a first pitch to hit and hitting the ball hard somewhere and getting out.

 

The opposing pitcher's arm has no problem with it either.

 

It's the same thing with some of the team's philosophy on stolen bases. If you think you can do it, then by all means go for it, but prepare to get hell if it fails. Same thing with first pitch swinging. If the pitch looks great and it looks like you can drive the ball, then by God swing the bat. But if you get out, accept the fact that you wasted your at bat.

 

It's not a waste. So if your 3 hole hitter takes a fastball right down the middle and flies out on the second pitch, that's much better then?

 

Not every player is suited to take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. See a good pitch to hit and put a good swing on it....depending on the situation I don't care if it's the 1st pitch or 8th pitch.

[BigbadB]

Have you ever played baseball? Swing at something only if you can hit it hard....good concept but it's not quite that easy.

 

That's why they are called professionals. :wink:

 

Of course, that word should probably be used loosely when speaking of players on the Cub roster.

[stitchface]

Have you ever played baseball? Swing at something only if you can hit it hard....good concept but it's not quite that easy.

 

But the great hitters do it better than the bad hitters. therefore its something to strive for - if you can't recognize pitches, you will not be a major league hitter. Have you ever hit in the major leagues? Just because something is difficult does not mean its not the right approach or goal.

 

and btw, the condescending tone adds nothing to your arguments.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How often is the first pitch a pitch worth swinging at?

 

The answer is not very often, or at the very least much less often than the Cubs swing at them.

 

Not to be a jerk by quoting myself, but I don't know how else to say it other than this. Just because pitching coaches preach getting ahead in the count doesn't mean that pitchers are throwing BP in order to get ahead. Sometimes they do, and that's when you want to swing at the first pitch, but for the most part they don't.

[bring stone back]

I'm trying to have a discussion with you. Your argument on page one was just foolish. If you swing at the first pitch and get a hit then fantastic, if you get out, it's a waste.

 

As a hitter, you can't control where the defense is playing, where exactly the ball goes, etc.

 

I'm sorry I'm being so difficult.

 

What's so foolish about the argument?

 

Hitter sees a meatball on pitch #1, hits it, flies out to center field. Pitcher only uses 1 pitch.

 

Hitter sees a meatball on pitch #8, hits it, flies out to center field. Pitcher uses 8 pitches, hitter sees a lot of the different type of pitches the hitter throws, can give info on what all the pitches look like to his teammates, etc. At least something minor was accomplished.

 

My point stands, and I still don't see the foolishness of it. A 1 pitch out is a worthless at bat.

 

I'm not trying to get in an argument either...I'm saying it's not that easy to hit a baseball and people are acting like taking 3-4 pitches is going to make it magically easier.

 

It's like the NBA, if you have a good shooter take an open jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock is that worthless possession? Absolutely not. The only thing you can ask for is putting a good swing on a pitch you feel you can do something with. Sometimes you just miss and get a pop up or a fly out. Sometimes you'll hit it 400 feet.

[BigbadB]

Not every player is suited to take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. See a good pitch to hit and put a good swing on it....depending on the situation I don't care if it's the 1st pitch or 8th pitch.

 

Maybe the Cubs should invest in guys who take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. Those guys tend to be better hitters. They'd also help get to the bullpen much sooner in games when the opposing pitcher is on.

 

Who on the Cubs takes the most pitches? Their best hitter, Derrek Lee. Coincidence?

[rocket]

 

It's not a waste. So if your 3 hole hitter takes a fastball right down the middle and flies out on the second pitch, that's much better then?

 

Not every player is suited to take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. See a good pitch to hit and put a good swing on it....depending on the situation I don't care if it's the 1st pitch or 8th pitch.

 

The 3 hole hitter should have swung at the first pitch. I never said anything that would imply I think he should take the pitch. But if he flies out, it wasn't a productive at bat. Doesn't mean the idea was bad, but it's still worse than an out that lasted 6-8 pitches. That's all I've ever been saying.

[rocket]

t's like the NBA, if you have a good shooter take an open jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock is that worthless possession? Absolutely not. The only thing you can ask for is putting a good swing on a pitch you feel you can do something with. Sometimes you just miss and get a pop up or a fly out. Sometimes you'll hit it 400 feet.

 

And sometimes it was a pitch you shouldn't have swung at in the first place.

[bring stone back]

Have you ever played baseball? Swing at something only if you can hit it hard....good concept but it's not quite that easy.

 

But the great hitters do it better than the bad hitters. therefore its something to strive for - if you can't recognize pitches, you will not be a major league hitter. Have you ever hit in the major leagues? Just because something is difficult does not mean its not the right approach or goal.

 

and btw, the condescending tone adds nothing to your arguments.

 

My condescending tone? Yet you try to get real tough with your "I'm not looking up anything for you."

 

I have not hit in the major leagues but have hit against pitchers who have played in the major leagues at a fairly high level. You get maybe 3/10 of a second to recognize ball vs. strike. It's far too simplistic to say go up there and swing only if you can hit the ball hard. Put a good swing on a pitch you think you can is all you can do.

[bring stone back]

Not every player is suited to take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. See a good pitch to hit and put a good swing on it....depending on the situation I don't care if it's the 1st pitch or 8th pitch.

 

Maybe the Cubs should invest in guys who take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. Those guys tend to be better hitters. They'd also help get to the bullpen much sooner in games when the opposing pitcher is on.

 

Who on the Cubs takes the most pitches? Their best hitter, Derrek Lee. Coincidence?

 

Do you think Jeff Francoeur is a good hitter? He's a notorious first pitch swinger.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Have you ever played baseball? Swing at something only if you can hit it hard....good concept but it's not quite that easy.

 

But the great hitters do it better than the bad hitters. therefore its something to strive for - if you can't recognize pitches, you will not be a major league hitter. Have you ever hit in the major leagues? Just because something is difficult does not mean its not the right approach or goal.

 

and btw, the condescending tone adds nothing to your arguments.

 

My condescending tone? Yet you try to get real tough with your "I'm not looking up anything for you."

 

I have not hit in the major leagues but have hit against pitchers who have played in the major leagues at a fairly high level. You get maybe 3/10 of a second to recognize ball vs. strike. It's far too simplistic to say go up there and swing only if you can hit the ball hard. Put a good swing on a pitch you think you can is all you can do.

 

I don't think you're giving Major League caliber hitters nearly enough credit.

[cubfan1955]

Personally I don't care which pitch they swing at if it is a good pitch to hit. If a hitter takes a belt high fastball right down the middle on the first pitch there is a good chance he let the best pitch he's going to see that AB go by. Where the Cubs agressiveness kills them is they are agressive outside the strike zone and believe me, every pitcher in baseball knows you don't have to throw the ball over the plate to get the Cubs out. What the Cubs need to do is be agressive IN the strike zone.

 

On the flip side, watch the patience of opposing hitters against our pitchers. By not swinging at balls off the plate it raises the pitch count. Why else do our starters usually hit 100 pitches somewhere between the 5th and 7th innings?

Edited June 8, 2006 by cubfan1955

[rocket]

Not every player is suited to take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. See a good pitch to hit and put a good swing on it....depending on the situation I don't care if it's the 1st pitch or 8th pitch.

 

Maybe the Cubs should invest in guys who take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. Those guys tend to be better hitters. They'd also help get to the bullpen much sooner in games when the opposing pitcher is on.

 

Who on the Cubs takes the most pitches? Their best hitter, Derrek Lee. Coincidence?

 

Do you think Jeff Francoeur is a good hitter? He's a notorious first pitch swinger.

 

Have you seen his average?

[bring stone back]

t's like the NBA, if you have a good shooter take an open jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock is that worthless possession? Absolutely not. The only thing you can ask for is putting a good swing on a pitch you feel you can do something with. Sometimes you just miss and get a pop up or a fly out. Sometimes you'll hit it 400 feet.

 

And sometimes it was a pitch you shouldn't have swung at in the first place.

 

You're absolutely right...sometimes that happens. If they do take it, foul off another and before you know it, they're pretty much screwed at 0-2 or 1-2.

 

I still feel this was Patterson's problem and why I felt it was dumb to get rid of him. He was too scared at the plate last year and swung at anything just so he didn't get behind the count in fear of a strikeout. His problems were mental and nothing an offseason away from baseball couldn't help.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Not every player is suited to take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. See a good pitch to hit and put a good swing on it....depending on the situation I don't care if it's the 1st pitch or 8th pitch.

 

Maybe the Cubs should invest in guys who take 6 or 7 pitches per at bat. Those guys tend to be better hitters. They'd also help get to the bullpen much sooner in games when the opposing pitcher is on.

 

Who on the Cubs takes the most pitches? Their best hitter, Derrek Lee. Coincidence?

 

Do you think Jeff Francoeur is a good hitter? He's a notorious first pitch swinger.

 

Have you seen his average?

 

.252/.268/.439/.707

 

Either way, outliers(Vlad would be a better example than Francoeur) don't prove the practicality of the approach.

[bring stone back]

Personally I don't care which pitch they swing at if it is a good pitch to hit. If a hitter takes a belt high fastball right down the middle on the first pitch there is a good chance he let the best pitch he's going to see that AB go by. Where the Cubs agressiveness kills them is they are agressive outside the strike zone and believe me, every pitcher in baseball knows you don't have to throw the ball over the plate to get the Cubs out. What the Cubs need to do is be agressive IN the strike zone.

 

On the flip side, watch the patience of opposing hitters against our pitchers. By not swinging at balls off the plate it raises the pitch count. Why else do our starters usually hit 100 pitches somewhere between the 5th and 7th innings?

 

A lot of that pitch count has to do with our pitchers being primarily strikeout pitchers and our burning desire to walk 5-6 hitters a game.