*715

[cubfan1955]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

 

I agree that without his use of performance-enhancing drugs, Bonds would have been a fist-ballot HOFer. I also believe that his use of performance-enhancing drugs is cheating and should be punished by not receiving the honor of admission to the HOF.

 

There must be consequence for his cheating.

 

I can't even imagine what would happen to him if he is found to have juiced 1999-2004 or whatever. (Solid proof)

 

I dunno what would happen, would he make the Hall of Fame? Palmeiro might have checked his ticket out after last years scandal...but Bonds has been such an incredible player, it would be hard to kick him out.

Pete Rose was pretty good too.

[BigSlick]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

 

I agree that without his use of performance-enhancing drugs, Bonds would have been a fist-ballot HOFer. I also believe that his use of performance-enhancing drugs is cheating and should be punished by not receiving the honor of admission to the HOF.

 

There must be consequence for his cheating.

 

I can't even imagine what would happen to him if he is found to have juiced 1999-2004 or whatever. (Solid proof)

 

I dunno what would happen, would he make the Hall of Fame? Palmeiro might have checked his ticket out after last years scandal...but Bonds has been such an incredible player, it would be hard to kick him out.

Pete Rose was pretty good too.

 

While I make no distinction between betting on baseball and steroids, others seem to have. Both, to me, are good enough to ban someone for life. (I don't think we should keep Shoeless Joe Jackson out now, what kind of example is it now? He's been dead for darn near 70 years or something)

 

I think if you get caught red-handed with steroids, you should be outta the game. Harsh? Maybe. Unfair, maybe not.

[OleMissCub]

 

I wasn't replying specifically to you, more to the consensus that is so up in arms over Bonds.

 

To my knowlege, amphetamines help with stamina. They're an upper that helped people avoid the affects of fatigue, at least for the length of a game. Someone feel free to correct/add on if that's not right.

 

I've taken amphetamines before (not while playing ball), and it does make you more hyper, but it also makes you very skittish and nervous all the time. I think if I had taken them while playing I would have been far too keyed up to have done much good....certainly not BETTER than when I was off them and on my full mind.

 

In my opinion, the gap between Amphetamines and Human Growth Hormone as they relate to athletic performance, is about the distance from the earth to the moon.

[cubfan1955]

I think if you get caught red-handed with steroids, you should be outta the game. Harsh? Maybe. Unfair, maybe not.

Personally I agree with you but Selig is no Giamatti.

[Derwood]

During part of Ruth'd career, a one-hopper over the fence counted as a homer. Should we asterisk him now? Or how about the fact that Cy Young pitched from a mound over twice as high as the modern mound and from only 50 feet from home plate?

 

Look, I hate Bonds as much as the next guy, but since there is no empirical way to prove how many homers Bonds hit with/without steroids, the asterisk thing is just sour grapes. And no matter how much we all believe he was on steroids (and despite his allegedly admitting to using them) he never tested positive for them. and even if he had, it wouldn't have mattered as steroids were not a banned substance in MLB during the time we believe he took them. I would consider it cheating, MLB did not, so a lifetime ban from the HoF has no basis.

[OleMissCub]

During part of Ruth'd career, a one-hopper over the fence counted as a homer. Should we asterisk him now? Or how about the fact that Cy Young pitched from a mound over twice as high as the modern mound and from only 50 feet from home plate?

.

 

During Ruth's career, your average baseball field dimensions were somewhere around 380-450-360 or so. Also, during nearly all of Young's career, fouls didn't count as strikes. Everything is relative.

 

To me, what hurts Bonds the most is the fact that he took the steroids with animus. He knowingly acheived an unfair advantage over others. Ruth couldn't help the fact that the rules were the way they were. Young didn't set the dimensions of a baseball park during his time.

[Tim Burr]

One of the biggest jokes that is overlooked is that all six of Bonds homeruns, the Giants lost the game! (Nobody has mentioned this to my knowledge.) He is nothing but a selfish arrogant racist and regardless of his ability, should not be given any praise for breaking a record while cheating!

 

Plus, not signing the ball for the veteran who caught 713 in Philadelphia was just another low point in his career of which there are many!

Edited May 29, 2006 by Tim Burr

[Jehrico]

During part of Ruth'd career, a one-hopper over the fence counted as a homer. Should we asterisk him now? Or how about the fact that Cy Young pitched from a mound over twice as high as the modern mound and from only 50 feet from home plate?

 

Look, I hate Bonds as much as the next guy, but since there is no empirical way to prove how many homers Bonds hit with/without steroids, the asterisk thing is just sour grapes. And no matter how much we all believe he was on steroids (and despite his allegedly admitting to using them) he never tested positive for them. and even if he had, it wouldn't have mattered as steroids were not a banned substance in MLB during the time we believe he took them. I would consider it cheating, MLB did not, so a lifetime ban from the HoF has no basis.

 

No one's trying to figure out how many homers Bonds would have hit without Roids, just like no one's trying to figure out how many Ruth would have hit had they called ground rule doubles back then and had today's park dimensions like OMC pointed out. The difference is Bonds knowingly engaged in illegal activities to gain an unfair advantage, while Ruth had no advantages over his contemporaries other than his own natural abilities. One is a legend, the other is a cheater, and as such, the latter doesn't deserve to be treated or remembered like the former.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Bonds is one of the best hitters ever with or without steroids.

[Derwood]

and so long as steroids weren't banned by MLB, he wasn't technically cheating.

[OleMissCub]

and so long as steroids weren't banned by MLB, he wasn't technically cheating.

 

to me, the technical aspects of it don't matter. What matters is that he knowingly engaged in behavior that, illegal or not, gave him a superior advantage over others, and when he practically got caught doing it, became even more belligerent than he already was.

[cubfan1955]

and so long as steroids weren't banned by MLB, he wasn't technically cheating.

Technically he was taking illegal drugs without a prescription so maybe he should be thrown in prison.

[Jehrico]

and so long as steroids weren't banned by MLB, he wasn't technically cheating.

Technically, he broke the law to gain an unfavorable advantage. Technically, not cheating.

 

Would Tonya Harding whacking Nancy Kerrigan be classified as cheating? Technically, I don't think having your fiance whack your competitor in the knees is against the rules of the National Figure Skating Association, but I could be wrong.

[TB_11]

and so long as steroids weren't banned by MLB, he wasn't technically cheating.

 

U.S. federal laws take precedence over those of a sports organization.

[cbbryan]

I don't like Bonds because he's a juicing cheater, but even if he wasn't I don't like him much anyway!

[CubsBullsBears]

Bonds is not a nice person. He tried to charge the mound against Prior in 2003 and in July said Z would learn to "respect" him. He's also a racist who doesn't like white people and that is the only reason he wanted to pass Ruth. I bet you if Ruth was at 755 and Aaron was at 714, Bonds would say he wants to play past 2006.

[SouthSideRyan]

and so long as steroids weren't banned by MLB, he wasn't technically cheating.

 

I'm not so sure this is true. I believe there are clauses in MLB rules about illegal activities not referred to directly in the rulebook. The problem was there was no punishment in the rulebook with regards to steroids, I believe they were always illegal.

[Andy]

In 1991, Fay Vincent distributed a memo stating that possession of any illegal substance was against baseball rules.

 

Bonds WAS cheating.

[BigSlick]

In 1991, Fay Vincent distributed a memo stating that possession of any illegal substance was against baseball rules.

 

Bonds WAS cheating.

 

/end thread

[SouthSideRyan]

In 1991, Fay Vincent distributed a memo stating that possession of any illegal substance was against baseball rules.

 

Bonds WAS cheating.

 

Thanks, I didn't know what made it official.

[3finger]

Runs Created Above Average for players from 1980 to 2004 (can't get 2005 to work on my sabermetric encyclopedia -- need to fix that):

 

1 *Barry Bonds 1496

2 Frank Thomas 796

3 Rickey Henderson 762

4 Jeff Bagwell 680

5 *Mark McGwire 665

6 Edgar Martinez 647

7 Gary Sheffield 605

8 Manny Ramirez 573

9 Jim Thome 571

10 *Rafael Palmeiro 564

 

Why didn't you star Sheffield? He admitted it himself that he used steroids.

 

My bad. Of course, he used 'emaccidentally dontcha know.