what is the deal with prior???

[sonofsamiam]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Prior's recent injury is related to the speed from which he came back from the line-drive injury?

 

IIRC, he came back quicker than expected from that (what a wuss he is, though!), and wasn't as effective as he had been beforehand. Did it still bother him, and was he overcompensating, putting stress on the shoulder? Was his effectiveness related to something like that, or was he just rusty?

 

I just wonder -- if Brad Hawpe hadn't hit that friggin' liner, would things have continued smoothly? He only missed his first start of '05, and was plugging along just fine until then. The Cubs even seemed to have him on a reasonable pitch count. I suppose we'll never know.

 

Regardless, the questioning of a players' manhood by fans seems to reflect more the frustration of the fans themselves than anything about the player. I doubt we'll ever really know if Prior is "soft". I'm pretty darn sure he'd prefer to be pitching for the team right now and not rehabbing, though.

[badger1679666666]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 200

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

but that's not the real issue, the real issue is: why has kerry wood failed to have a 700 strikeout season? i mean honestly, he obviously sucks.

 

The real issue is why haven't any of them won at least 15 games in a season. That's the true measuring stick.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier, after reading Goony's post, I want Dusty hung up by his balls. I can't believe how badly the abuse of our pitchers looked when written out like that.

 

I know Prior wants to be out, I just wish he'd stop getting flu's and stomach virus's.

[Soul]

Not sure what to think anymore. Part me thinks Prior is going through a rash of bad luck, and another part wonders if he has become a bit too sensitive to any discomfort that comes along.

 

I hope it's the former. At any rate, the situation is obviously very frustrating for everyone. Same with Wood, though I'm more certain in Woody's case he's just putting a ton of strain on his arm and it's not holding up.

[cl smooth]

Not sure what to think anymore. Part me thinks Prior is going through a rash of bad luck, and another part wonders if he has become a bit too sensitive to any discomfort that comes along.

 

that's how i feel. at first he was coming back because of a bad viral infection over the offseason, then "all of a sudden" his shoulder is bothering him, now he's got the craps. dude, just take some pepto and get back out there! i hope he's not turning into a mental midget when it comes to aches and pains.

[soccer10k]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 200

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

but that's not the real issue, the real issue is: why has kerry wood failed to have a 700 strikeout season? i mean honestly, he obviously sucks.

 

The real issue is why haven't any of them won at least 15 games in a season. That's the true measuring stick.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier, after reading Goony's post, I want Dusty hung up by his balls. I can't believe how badly the abuse of our pitchers looked when written out like that.

 

I know Prior wants to be out, I just wish he'd stop getting flu's and stomach virus's.

 

Prior won 18 in 2003. But you are right on Wood.

[soccer10k]

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing when a player might be back. I don't want to know if Prior might make a start on a certain day. Wait a couple days and tell me the day before or day of that he's going to throw a simulated game. Tell me a couple days in advance, after his final simulated game, that he's going to make a minor league rehab start on a certain day. But I'm tired of hearing estimations on when a player will return a couple weeks in advance. I have no problems with estimating DLee being out 8-10 weeks, but don't set a specific date or couple dates for his return.

 

I'm not tired of it. It's exactly what they should be doing. They have an obligation to their customers to be as forthright as possible, and to be open and honest about injuries. You hear every other team talking about timelines. Sometimes they are met, sometimes they are not. The Cubs, in their pathetic pansy way take offense when they are called out on it, so they hide in their little shell and pretend nothing is behind the green curtain. It's a sad yet perfect depiction of the all-around ineptness of this organization.

 

Somebody refered earlier to the concept that the Cubs can do no right in this situation. I think that's exactly the point. They are a bunch of bumbling buffoons who can't figure out anything injury related. They can't figure out the one problem that has killed this team for years offensively. They can't figure out how to get pitchers to throw strikes. They can't figure out how to win ballgames. This front office has had a dozen years to get things right and they've failed miserably. They foolishly tried to become the next Braves, when they should have tried to be the next Marlins. If you put all your hopes on a couple arms, the odds are you will fail because arms are extremely unreliable. If they put an ounce of energy into the offense, and more than a minute of thought beyond the tools, it would be a lot easier to win games without absolutely perfect pitching.

 

And I'm sure that would go over well with the board. I know that probably would have meant a World Series title or two, but how many people would honestly like it if the Cubs just traded ALL of their good players right after winning? How many people would want Hendry's head on a platter for doing that? Maybe not after the first World Series, but definately after the second. Remember, the Braves did win a World Series title during their run and I would much rather emulate them than the Marlins.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 2003. If that's overuse, he needs to be dealt elsewhere.

 

For an established pro pitcher, those aren't big innings. But 2002 was his first pro season, and he went well beyond what he was used to. 2003 was only his 2nd season, and he was just 22. While pitching injuries are still a mystery, most people who have put much thought into the issue agree that pre 24 year old pitchers are at the greatest risk, and should be treated accordingly. That means not overexerting the youngest pitchers, both in individual games and for the season. Prior threw over 100 pitches in his first major league start. Not a real big deal, but he did it in 6 innings, which means he had some big pitch count innings. He then threw 124 in his 4th start of his career, absurd. He followed that up with 12 straight 100+ pitch outings, including 6 over 110 pitches, and one of 136 pitches (more absurdity). He had 3 more 100+ pitch outings before being shut down. That's a string of risky treatment of a 21 year old kid pitcher who had never before pitched against professional hitters.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, with under 200 pro innings under his belt (most pitchers, even really good ones, get several hundred under their belt before they debut) his first outing was 100+. 3 of his next 4 were 110+. He then went on a string of 12 straight 100+ pitch outings, including 124, 123, 124, 119 and 127.

 

Then, he went out and injured his shoulder in a game, BUT WENT BACK OUT TO PITCH ANYWAY. Following that game, in which he pitched 3 innings after the injury, he missed a month of the season, due to that injury. Some excused Dusty and the Cubs saying, "well, he said he was fine", to which the only reasonable response is "HE WAS 22 YEARS OLD WITH VERY LIMITED EXPERIENCE AND HE WAS TRYING TO IMPRESS HIS MANAGER AND TEAMMATES, OF COURSE HE SAID HE WAS FINE, THAT SHOULDN'T BE HIS CALL TO MAKE. YOU DON'T ASK A BOXER IF HE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO GO ON, HIS TRAINER/CORNERMAN MAKES THAT DECISION FOR HIM."

 

So anyway, after this nearly month long abscense, they eased him back in with a nice little 79 pitch outing. Then they let him go 116, 118, 100, 116, 131, 129, 110, 124, 131 and 133 to finish off the season. Mind you, he turned 23 the day after the 129 pitch outing.

 

In his first postseason experience, he goes 9 full innings throwing 133 pitches. In his 2nd outing, he went 7 innings, racking up 116 pitches (and the Cubs were blowing out Florida in a 12-3 win, the perfect opportunity to rest a starting pitcher).

 

It came out later that during this stretch run, Prior was complaining of a little ankle issue, that many attributed to his later achilles problem.

 

So, going into what would be his last playoff start of the year, his third start of the playoffs, Prior came in averaging 121.4 pitches per game for 12 games over the course of 2 months, COMING OFF INJURY. He threw 119 pitches in that fateful game, about 110 of which were brilliant. And some people have the audacity for calling him out for "blowing the game", even though, with any sense of perspective, somebody could look at the treatment of a 21, 22 and 23 year old kid seeing his first pro competition, and say no wonder he started to unravel at the end.

 

The Cubs and Dusty Baker abused Prior so much that he racked up an incredible number of pitcher abuse points. He could ask out of games early because he would be seen as a coward in the macho man culture of baseball, where injuries are a sign of mental weakness and losing a game is due to not being tough enough to know how to win.

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

The kid was killed, in a baseball sense, at an incredibly young age. The Cubs don't throw established veterans with no future out there that frequently that long and that recklessly. But they treat their kids that way.

 

Brilliant!

 

Great (and depressing) post, goony.

[badger1679666666]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 200

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

but that's not the real issue, the real issue is: why has kerry wood failed to have a 700 strikeout season? i mean honestly, he obviously sucks.

 

The real issue is why haven't any of them won at least 15 games in a season. That's the true measuring stick.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier, after reading Goony's post, I want Dusty hung up by his balls. I can't believe how badly the abuse of our pitchers looked when written out like that.

 

I know Prior wants to be out, I just wish he'd stop getting flu's and stomach virus's.

 

Prior won 18 in 2003. But you are right on Wood.

 

You do know I was being sarcastic right?

[Soul]

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing when a player might be back. I don't want to know if Prior might make a start on a certain day. Wait a couple days and tell me the day before or day of that he's going to throw a simulated game. Tell me a couple days in advance, after his final simulated game, that he's going to make a minor league rehab start on a certain day. But I'm tired of hearing estimations on when a player will return a couple weeks in advance. I have no problems with estimating DLee being out 8-10 weeks, but don't set a specific date or couple dates for his return.

 

I'm not tired of it. It's exactly what they should be doing. They have an obligation to their customers to be as forthright as possible, and to be open and honest about injuries. You hear every other team talking about timelines. Sometimes they are met, sometimes they are not. The Cubs, in their pathetic pansy way take offense when they are called out on it, so they hide in their little shell and pretend nothing is behind the green curtain. It's a sad yet perfect depiction of the all-around ineptness of this organization.

 

Somebody refered earlier to the concept that the Cubs can do no right in this situation. I think that's exactly the point. They are a bunch of bumbling buffoons who can't figure out anything injury related. They can't figure out the one problem that has killed this team for years offensively. They can't figure out how to get pitchers to throw strikes. They can't figure out how to win ballgames. This front office has had a dozen years to get things right and they've failed miserably. They foolishly tried to become the next Braves, when they should have tried to be the next Marlins. If you put all your hopes on a couple arms, the odds are you will fail because arms are extremely unreliable. If they put an ounce of energy into the offense, and more than a minute of thought beyond the tools, it would be a lot easier to win games without absolutely perfect pitching.

 

And I'm sure that would go over well with the board. I know that probably would have meant a World Series title or two, but how many people would honestly like it if the Cubs just traded ALL of their good players right after winning? How many people would want Hendry's head on a platter for doing that? Maybe not after the first World Series, but definately after the second. Remember, the Braves did win a World Series title during their run and I would much rather emulate them than the Marlins.

 

I think the point is, the Braves are a much less likely model to be able to emulate than the Marlins.

 

Honestly, I don't get the whole Marlins=bad mentality. There's nothing wrong with what they did. They went out, built up 2 World Series champions, and then started over each time. Translate that to the Cubs: we go out, win 2 World Series, and in between we lose, just like we are right now. How is this bad, again? At least it would mean the organization has the ability to build a winner.

[soapy]

Again, I know we're all frustrated, but there are two things I'd like to point out:

 

1. If the article is accurate, Prior's only going to miss a few days.

2. Anyone who has really had food poisoning knows it's not a matter throwing back some Pepto and toughing it out. I've only had it once, but I felt like I could barely move for at least two days.

 

However, I do think all the points about Prior's past abuse and the fact that he shouldn't be delayed for several months because of a "virus" and a shoulder strain are valid. I just don't want the food poisoning thing to get blown out of proportion.

[soccer10k]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 200

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

but that's not the real issue, the real issue is: why has kerry wood failed to have a 700 strikeout season? i mean honestly, he obviously sucks.

 

The real issue is why haven't any of them won at least 15 games in a season. That's the true measuring stick.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier, after reading Goony's post, I want Dusty hung up by his balls. I can't believe how badly the abuse of our pitchers looked when written out like that.

 

I know Prior wants to be out, I just wish he'd stop getting flu's and stomach virus's.

 

Prior won 18 in 2003. But you are right on Wood.

 

You do know I was being sarcastic right?

 

No I didn't, but I do think Wood not winning 15 games in a season is a big deal. I know that wins don't mean everything, and I have discussed this in another thread, but if Kerry Wood is so great, you would think he would have had a Cy Young caliber season already. But he hasn't.

[jtownie]

Again, I know we're all frustrated, but there are two things I'd like to point out:

 

1. If the article is accurate, Prior's only going to miss a few days.

2. Anyone who has really had food poisoning knows it's not a matter throwing back some Pepto and toughing it out. I've only had it once, but I felt like I could barely move for at least two days.

 

However, I do think all the points about Prior's past abuse and the fact that he shouldn't be delayed for several months because of a "virus" and a shoulder strain are valid. I just don't want the food poisoning thing to get blown out of proportion.

 

I have agree. I was food poisoned by chicken about 5 years ago and it is still the most brutal "illness" i have ever dealt with. I'd rather have the flu. I couldn't stand without being extremely nauceous for 3 days. Eating doesn't happen and drinking water is painful.

At the same time the reports from Steve STone saying Prior had discomfort and was going to be delayed at least 2 more weeks makes me wonder if this is another coverup of some type. I hope it isn't but I can't help but be suspicious of anything the Cubs pass onto the media regarding injuries.

[Magnetic Curses]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 200

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

but that's not the real issue, the real issue is: why has kerry wood failed to have a 700 strikeout season? i mean honestly, he obviously sucks.

 

The real issue is why haven't any of them won at least 15 games in a season. That's the true measuring stick.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier, after reading Goony's post, I want Dusty hung up by his balls. I can't believe how badly the abuse of our pitchers looked when written out like that.

 

I know Prior wants to be out, I just wish he'd stop getting flu's and stomach virus's.

 

Prior won 18 in 2003. But you are right on Wood.

 

i think he was being facetious.

[Magnetic Curses]

He pitched 167 innings in 2002 and 211 in 200

 

Is it any wonder how, at 23, 24 and 25, Prior has come down with a string of strange ailments, and has, at times, not pitched as brilliantly as some would expect?

 

but that's not the real issue, the real issue is: why has kerry wood failed to have a 700 strikeout season? i mean honestly, he obviously sucks.

 

The real issue is why haven't any of them won at least 15 games in a season. That's the true measuring stick.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier, after reading Goony's post, I want Dusty hung up by his balls. I can't believe how badly the abuse of our pitchers looked when written out like that.

 

I know Prior wants to be out, I just wish he'd stop getting flu's and stomach virus's.

 

Prior won 18 in 2003. But you are right on Wood.

 

You do know I was being sarcastic right?

 

No I didn't, but I do think Wood not winning 15 games in a season is a big deal. I know that wins don't mean everything, and I have discussed this in another thread, but if Kerry Wood is so great, you would think he would have had a Cy Young caliber season already. But he hasn't.

 

i know, you're right, kerry should have struck out an average of 23 batters per game and won every game he's pitched in.

 

the truth is, kerry's been a seriously unlucky pitcher, but a very good one, nonetheless.

 

i think it's absolutely the mark of a casual fan to see wood strike out 20 batters in a game and then get called a bust when he can't repeat it in the years following. that was the worst thing he could have ever done, because after that, the edward k's of the world began expecting him to be some sort of ruthian mega-legend.

[cubsfan1]

-- edited by Tim

 

1) to the poster: please do not phish for numbers on my site. If I see it again I'll ban you immediately (and the IP address you rode in on). I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt once.

 

2) to all members: Never, EVER give your phone number out over the net like this poster requested.

[Andy]

I think it's much more disconncerting that Kerry hasn't had enough seasons where he's pitched enough innings to get the starts needed to get to the 15-win mark than the fact that he has not actually gotten 15 in a season.

[srbin84]

This thread makes me feel vindicated, and it feels stupendous.

 

I'd trade it for a healthy Prior though.

[badger1679666666]

No I didn't, but I do think Wood not winning 15 games in a season is a big deal. I know that wins don't mean anything, but I continue to use them as a measuring stick regardless of that fact

 

Fixed what your post should read.

[Shavo]

My approach with Prior, Wood, and Miller would be to prepare them for next year. This means they should all be slowed down a bit. Don't rush Prior or Miller, and keep Wood at his current pace. Be carefull with their pitch counts and try to keep them out there the entire year after they get back. Then re evaluate them in the off season.

 

Hopefully this would go a long way in building their arm strength, and all 3 would be ready for next season. In 2007 ...

 

Zambrano

Prior

Wood

Miller/Hill

Hill/Marshall/Williams/FA

 

We wouldn't have to worry about pitching in the off season. The Cubs can either pick up Wood's option or sign him for less (if he go's along). We save 9 mill on Maddux, Pierre's money is gone (replaced with Pie), ect. We could deffinatley sign/trade for a bat or two.

 

If you don't like what you see from Prior, Wood, or Miller, plan around them. This season is pretty hopeless, so why rush these guys back? They should be babied at this point.

[srbin84]

My approach with Prior, Wood, and Miller would be to prepare them for next year. This means they should all be slowed down a bit. Don't rush Prior or Miller, and keep Wood at his current pace. Be carefull with their pitch counts and try to keep them out there the entire year after they get back. Then re evaluate them in the off season.

 

Hopefully this would go a long way in building their arm strength, and all 3 would be ready for next season. In 2007 ...

 

Zambrano

Prior

Wood

Miller/Hill

Hill/Marshall/Williams/FA

 

We wouldn't have to worry about pitching in the off season. The Cubs can either pick up Wood's option or sign him for less (if he go's along). We save 9 mill on Maddux, Pierre's money is gone (replaced with Pie), ect. We could deffinatley sign/trade for a bat or two.

 

If you don't like what you see from Prior, Wood, or Miller, plan around them. This season is pretty hopeless, so why rush these guys back? They should be babied at this point.

 

Miller is a FA after this year, so he'll want to pitch. Wood is too, and the Cubs won't pick up that option if he doesn't do anything this year. And Prior, it doesn't matter what you do to safeguard, he will miss significant time just like he does every year.

[Shavo]

My approach with Prior, Wood, and Miller would be to prepare them for next year. This means they should all be slowed down a bit. Don't rush Prior or Miller, and keep Wood at his current pace. Be carefull with their pitch counts and try to keep them out there the entire year after they get back. Then re evaluate them in the off season.

 

Hopefully this would go a long way in building their arm strength, and all 3 would be ready for next season. In 2007 ...

 

Zambrano

Prior

Wood

Miller/Hill

Hill/Marshall/Williams/FA

 

We wouldn't have to worry about pitching in the off season. The Cubs can either pick up Wood's option or sign him for less (if he go's along). We save 9 mill on Maddux, Pierre's money is gone (replaced with Pie), ect. We could deffinatley sign/trade for a bat or two.

 

If you don't like what you see from Prior, Wood, or Miller, plan around them. This season is pretty hopeless, so why rush these guys back? They should be babied at this point.

 

Miller is a FA after this year, so he'll want to pitch. Wood is too, and the Cubs won't pick up that option if he doesn't do anything this year. And Prior, it doesn't matter what you do to safeguard, he will miss significant time just like he does every year.

 

I'm not saying don't pitch them. I am saying to be mighty carefull with them. Pitch them in more of a sense to feel them out for next year, don't worry about making them throw 120 pitches to win a close game.

[Jon]

This thread makes me feel vindicated, and it feels stupendous.

 

I'd trade it for a healthy Prior though.

Someone else spending that much time in the bathroom usually doesn't do much for me.

[srbin84]

This thread makes me feel vindicated, and it feels stupendous.

 

I'd trade it for a healthy Prior though.

Someone else spending that much time in the bathroom usually doesn't do much for me.

 

:-s :?:

[Backtobanks]

My approach with Prior, Wood, and Miller would be to prepare them for next year. This means they should all be slowed down a bit. Don't rush Prior or Miller, and keep Wood at his current pace. Be carefull with their pitch counts and try to keep them out there the entire year after they get back. Then re evaluate them in the off season.

 

Hopefully this would go a long way in building their arm strength, and all 3 would be ready for next season. In 2007 ...

 

Zambrano

Prior

Wood

Miller/Hill

Hill/Marshall/Williams/FA

 

We wouldn't have to worry about pitching in the off season. The Cubs can either pick up Wood's option or sign him for less (if he go's along). We save 9 mill on Maddux, Pierre's money is gone (replaced with Pie), ect. We could deffinatley sign/trade for a bat or two.

 

If you don't like what you see from Prior, Wood, or Miller, plan around them. This season is pretty hopeless, so why rush these guys back? They should be babied at this point.

 

Miller is a FA after this year, so he'll want to pitch. Wood is too, and the Cubs won't pick up that option if he doesn't do anything this year. And Prior, it doesn't matter what you do to safeguard, he will miss significant time just like he does every year.

 

I'm not saying don't pitch them. I am saying to be mighty carefull with them. Pitch them in more of a sense to feel them out for next year, don't worry about making them throw 120 pitches to win a close game.[/quote]

 

But if you pitch them carefully, can you make a good enough evaluation to decide whether you want to sign them at big money. Also, you might be right about this season being pretty hopeless now, but it's the beginning of May. If somehow the Cubs can figure out a way to ride out Lee's injury and still be less than 10 games out, the addition of Wood, Prior, Miller, Lee, and another midseason bat could make for a run at the division. I'm not saying I would bet on it, but you must admit that adding those players for the second half could make things interesting.

[Jon]

This thread makes me feel vindicated, and it feels stupendous.

 

I'd trade it for a healthy Prior though.

Someone else spending that much time in the bathroom usually doesn't do much for me.

 

:-s :?:

Just a bad joke about his food poisoning.

 

 

As bad as his abuse has been, it's too early to really tell what effect it may be having. He hasn't had any consistent problems and there have been other factors that contributed to his delays and time on the DL.

 

It certainly is scary, though, and really speaks volumes about the organization.