Delmon Young's in Big Trouble...

[Geech]

I was replying to this specific statement:

 

implies an intent to do serious bodily harm to the ump.

 

It's far from clear that Young acted with "intent to do serious bodily harm", and, yes, intent absolutely matters. In civil terms, intent is one of the defining features of battery. But beyond even that, it's the difference between being a jerk with a bad temper and actually being a threat.

[erik316wttn]

When Carl Everett head-butted an umpire he got a 10 game suspension. Roberto Alomar got 5 games for spitting at an umpire. Is this really that much worse?

 

Yes. If Young would have been just 6 inches higher, he could have broken the umps nose. Spitting wouldn't do that.

[OleMissCub]

I was replying to this specific statement:

 

implies an intent to do serious bodily harm to the ump.

 

It's far from clear that Young acted with "intent to do serious bodily harm", and, yes, intent absolutely matters. In civil terms, intent is one of the defining features of battery. But beyond even that, it's the difference between being a jerk with a bad temper and actually being a threat.

 

Intent is different in legal circumstances than how we perceive the word in common life. Intent in a legal sense doesn't require that the actor intend to HARM the person. Intent can be quantified by the fact that the actor should have known with a "substantial certainty" that his actions could have manifested in either harm coming to the victim OR that his actions could have caused the victim to fear that harm could come about.

 

Throwing a bat at someone following an altercation with that person is certainly enough to quantify Battery, such as in this case.

 

If the ump wanted to file a criminal charge for battery against Young, he'd have the requisite circumstances for that motion.

[Geech]

He would have to proved intent to hit him with the bat for battery which, despite a lot of conviction here, hasn't happened yet. However, that still doesn't show intent to cause harm. While battery may not require harm or even intent to cause there's still a big ethical difference there. Intent really does matter.

[OleMissCub]

He would have to proved intent to hit him with the bat for battery which, despite a lot of conviction here, hasn't happened yet. However, that still doesn't show intent to cause harm. While battery may not require harm or even intent to cause there's still a big ethical difference there. Intent really does matter.

 

 

What ethical difference are you talking about?? The law recognizes that intent can be "intent to do harm" OR "knew with a substantial certainty" OR "acted in a reckless or in a grossly negligent way".

 

It DOES NOT matter if Delmon wanted to hurt the guy or not. He oughta know that if you throw a bat at someone it could hurt them, AND flinging a bat with that velocity is acting recklessly.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

When Carl Everett head-butted an umpire he got a 10 game suspension. Roberto Alomar got 5 games for spitting at an umpire. Is this really that much worse?

 

The key difference is that a minor league player doesn't have the PA to protect him.

[fiver]

I must disagree with everyone that believes that this should be anything less than an entire 2006 season suspension for Young. This goes way beyond the Everett headbutt or Alomar's saliva, IMO. This isn't anyting close to being the equivalent of a player pushing an umpire, and this isn't the equivalent of a player punching another player. My opinion is that baseball should set the precedent that this type of aggression towards an umpire will not be tolerated. Intensely arguing with an umpire is one thing, but Young's intent was to either physically harm the umpire or scare the hell out of him by throwing the bat over the ump's shoulder (yeah right). Either way, umpires cannot have fear in their minds and call a fair game at the same time.

 

....Young is done for the season. :wave:

[stitchface]

I must disagree with everyone that believes that this should be anything less than an entire 2006 season suspension for Young. This goes way beyond the Everett headbutt or Alomar's saliva, IMO. This isn't anyting close to being the equivalent of a player pushing an umpire, and this isn't the equivalent of a player punching another player. My opinion is that baseball should set the precedent that this type of aggression towards an umpire will not be tolerated. Intensely arguing with an umpire is one thing, but Young's intent was to either physically harm the umpire or scare the hell out of him by throwing the bat over the ump's shoulder (yeah right). Either way, umpires cannot have fear in their minds and call a fair game at the same time.

 

....Young is done for the season. :wave:

 

That isn't enough in my opinion. That is completely unacceptable and I think he should just be banned. A bat is a potentially deadly weapon and no player should ever be allowed to use one against an umpire or another player. IF its anything short of a season ban, baseball will be making a huge mistake.

[Outshined_One]

When Carl Everett head-butted an umpire he got a 10 game suspension. Roberto Alomar got 5 games for spitting at an umpire. Is this really that much worse?

 

The key difference is that a minor league player doesn't have the PA to protect him.

 

This is true. Typically, they can knock suspensions down by a few games and make seemingly stiff penalties a bit less harsh. Young doesn't have that kind of protection, which means he might have to serve his suspension in full.

 

Does anyone know if his suspension would count for both minor and major league games?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I must disagree with everyone that believes that this should be anything less than an entire 2006 season suspension for Young. This goes way beyond the Everett headbutt or Alomar's saliva, IMO. This isn't anyting close to being the equivalent of a player pushing an umpire, and this isn't the equivalent of a player punching another player. My opinion is that baseball should set the precedent that this type of aggression towards an umpire will not be tolerated. Intensely arguing with an umpire is one thing, but Young's intent was to either physically harm the umpire or scare the hell out of him by throwing the bat over the ump's shoulder (yeah right). Either way, umpires cannot have fear in their minds and call a fair game at the same time.

 

....Young is done for the season. :wave:

 

Completely disagree.

[XZero771679666304]

I must disagree with everyone that believes that this should be anything less than an entire 2006 season suspension for Young. This goes way beyond the Everett headbutt or Alomar's saliva, IMO. This isn't anyting close to being the equivalent of a player pushing an umpire, and this isn't the equivalent of a player punching another player. My opinion is that baseball should set the precedent that this type of aggression towards an umpire will not be tolerated. Intensely arguing with an umpire is one thing, but Young's intent was to either physically harm the umpire or scare the hell out of him by throwing the bat over the ump's shoulder (yeah right). Either way, umpires cannot have fear in their minds and call a fair game at the same time.

 

....Young is done for the season. :wave:

 

Completely disagree.

 

I'm pretty sure I heard on SportsCenter that sources said Young did in fact intend to hit the umpire with the bat. I'm not sure what else he thought he was going to accomplish by that other than hurting or scaring him.

[treebird]

i know that if i wanted to hurt an umpire with a bat, the way to do it would be an awkward underhanded flip from ten feet away, while also taking care to keep it low to the ground.

 

come on people, this is ridiculous.

[Outshined_One]

Here's something to think about regarding intent.

 

Let's say, for the purposes of argument, that you legally own a firearm.

 

One day, you go out to an empty field, check the nearby area for people, find no one, set up some targets on a fence, and then shoot at the targets with your gun. However, one of your bullets misses the target, goes through the field, and strikes some one in the chest, killing them. You could not see or hear the person from your vantage point and had absolutely no intent of hurting that person. It was an accident.

 

That's one example. Here's another.

 

Instead of going to an empty field, you walk up to some train tracks and wait for a train. When the train is speeding by you, you open fire on it, not intending to hit anyone. However, one of your bullets hits a man and kills him, even though you did not intend for it to happen. All you intended to do was just shoot at the train for the heck of it, maybe because you were bored. Yet, you killed a man because of it.

 

Should you receive the same penalties in the second example as in the first example?

 

Here's another, which is even more extreme.

 

You think you're getting really good at the whole target practice thing and decide to take your act to the mall. You find a large crowd of people and open fire on them, intending to miss all of them. You open fire on these people and kill a man in the process. You never intended to hit him, quite the opposite. The man simply had the bad luck of being in front of one of your bullets.

 

Should you receive the same penalties for this act as the others?

 

Even if Young had no intent of hurting the umpire, oftentimes that won't mean a thing if reckless and potentially dangerous (or even lethal) behavior is involved. A baseball bat is a weapon that could either seriously maim or even kill a person.

 

No matter what you think of his intent, he threw the bat in the umpire's general direction. If he didn't intend to hit the ump, it seemed as if he intended for the bat to get really close to him. Considering that people move quite a bit, the umpire could well have walked or even turned into the bat as it was buzzing by him. Delmon should have known that. If he didn't, he's a petulant fool.

[treebird]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

[stitchface]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

What does that mean? If I go drive drunk that doesn't mean I intend to kill someone, but I might.

[treebird]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

What does that mean? If I go drive drunk that doesn't mean I intend to kill someone, but I might.

 

if you drove drunk with the intent of killing someone you'd probably be punished more strictly than if you did it on accident.

 

both are bad things to do, but one of them is worse.

[XZero771679666304]

i know that if i wanted to hurt an umpire with a bat, the way to do it would be an awkward underhanded flip from ten feet away, while also taking care to keep it low to the ground.

 

come on people, this is ridiculous.

 

In the clip I saw, the throw looked neither awkward or low to the ground. I didn't see it leave Delmon's hand, but it hit the ump in the upper body, and looked to have some decent velocity. And it also looked to be more than 10 feet away, since Young was out of the picture when the bat was tossed. Clearly, it was more than a flippant "I disagree with your call, so I am going to toss my equipment" thing. The call was made, Young walked out of the picture, enough time passed for him to think about what he was doing, and then the bat comes flying. Not bouncing in the dirt, or skidding along the ground, but airborne into the ump's chest.

 

Then on SC, they say "sources" (presumable teammates or coaches) say he intended to hit the ump with the bat. I don't see how Young can be defended here.

 

 

Regardless of intent, he should be suspended for the remainder of the season. Underhand or over, hard or soft, malicious intent or no, throwing a bat at an ump should be punished severely.

[OleMissCub]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

You do see the difference in "battery" and "attempted murder"? Nobody is saying he was trying to kill him.

 

However, Delmon HIMSELF said he was trying to hit the umpire. So you can stop with the "accident" crap. Have you even watched the video??? He threw his freaking bat at an umpire. This wasn't some underhanded, excuse me flip, toss of the bat. He THREW his bat at another person. I seriously wonder about you sometimes dude.

[treebird]

i know that if i wanted to hurt an umpire with a bat, the way to do it would be an awkward underhanded flip from ten feet away, while also taking care to keep it low to the ground.

 

come on people, this is ridiculous.

 

Then on SC, they say "sources" (presumable teammates or coaches) say he intended to hit the ump with the bat. I don't see how Young can be defended here.

 

he can be defended in that some people are suggesting he be banned from baseball forever and that is laughably excessive.

 

Regardless of intent, he should be suspended for the remainder of the season. Underhand or over, hard or soft, malicious intent or no, throwing a bat at an ump should be punished severely.

 

he can be punished severely without suspending him for the season. that's what should happen.

[Outshined_One]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

Actually, the law is quite relevant given the fact that contracts basically allow baseball to exist. It's why labor lawyers represent the Player's Association. It's why almost all sports agents have law degrees. I'm sure there's plenty of language in the CBA and various other codes in baseball that has to do with actions like these, accidents, and intent. That's how punishments are decided upon and meted out.

 

Baseball has a legal governing structure; it's reasonable to bring this "jargon" into the equation.

[OleMissCub]

he can be defended in that some people are suggesting he be banned from baseball forever and that is laughably excessive.

.

 

He potentially committed a FELONY on the baseball diamond. A ban is hardly excessive.

[treebird]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

You do see the difference in "battery" and "attempted murder"? Nobody is saying he was trying to kill him.

 

However, Delmon HIMSELF said he was trying to hit the umpire. So you can stop with the "accident" crap. Have you even watched the video??? He threw his freaking bat at an umpire. This wasn't some underhanded, excuse me flip, toss of the bat. He THREW his bat at another person. I seriously wonder about you sometimes dude.

 

i never said it was an accident.

 

i have watched the video.

 

i don't know why you can't reply to my posts without throwing in comments like the last one. please stop it.

[treebird]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

Actually, the law is quite relevant given the fact that contracts basically allow baseball to exist. It's why labor lawyers represent the Player's Association. It's why almost all sports agents have law degrees. I'm sure there's plenty of language in the CBA and various other codes in baseball that has to do with actions like these, accidents, and intent. That's how punishments are decided upon and meted out.

 

Baseball has a legal governing structure; it's reasonable to bring this "jargon" into the equation.

 

you really think they're going to use the legal definition of intent when determining how long to suspend him? and that they'll ignore the common definition of intent?

[XZero771679666304]

delmon young is a moron. he should be punished.

 

delmon young is not a guy who decided that since the umpire screwed up he was going to kill him with a bat. he should not be punished in that manner.

 

also, until the umpire takes legal action, we can just drop the legal jargon, as it's irrelevant to the suspension discussion.

 

You do see the difference in "battery" and "attempted murder"? Nobody is saying he was trying to kill him.

 

However, Delmon HIMSELF said he was trying to hit the umpire. So you can stop with the "accident" crap. Have you even watched the video??? He threw his freaking bat at an umpire. This wasn't some underhanded, excuse me flip, toss of the bat. He THREW his bat at another person. I seriously wonder about you sometimes dude.

 

Exactly. Young hit the ump intentionally with a dangerous weapon. His suspension should reflect what a deliberate, reckess and very dangerous offense this was. I think a year is pretty conservative.

 

And if he had been trying to really injure or kill him we would be discussing things extending far beyond a suspension.

[treebird]

he can be defended in that some people are suggesting he be banned from baseball forever and that is laughably excessive.

.

 

He potentially committed a FELONY on the baseball diamond. A ban is hardly excessive.

 

carl everett headbutted a player. did you want him banned?