Will Cub fans ever be happy?

[bring stone back]

as i've said before, the bitching about the bitching practically outweighs the bitching.

 

 

Simple solution...be optimistic with the early start and the players coming back and quit bitching so damn much. Pretty easy.

 

OK, so be optimistic now and then act shocked when the Cubs' lack of health and ability to get on base catches up with them, and they finish around .500?

 

Inability to get on base? That's amazing...you can make such a bold prediction on the outcome of the entire year after 19 games.

 

No, don't be shocked if they finish .500....just blame it all on Dusty, Neifi and Hendry.

[rocket]

 

No, don't be shocked if they finish .500....just blame it all on Dusty, Neifi and Hendry.

 

Who do you want us to blame it on? The players that did well?

[bring stone back]

 

You don't think it's a little ridiculous to overreact after 19 games? Does Ramirez suck, too? I know...let's try and trade him. Nevermind, we probably can't because Hendry sucks, too, right?

 

If Aramis had a really awful year last year, then yes we'd probably complain that Ramirez sucks.

 

But Ramirez gets the benefit of the doubt. Because of Pierre's season last year, he does not.

 

As much as people keep talking about Pierre's "awful season" last year, I think he scored runs and stole over 50 bases. Considering it was such an awful season for him, I'm excited to see what he can do with Walker, a healthy Lee and Ramirez can do behind him.

[abuck1220]

 

Pierre isn't fast and doesn't bring energy to the team? If I recall at the beginning of the year a player made the analogy of bringing Pierre is like Podsednik to the Sox...he brings energy and excitement to the top of the lineup and the rest of the lineup can't help but feed off of that.

 

 

that doesn't even make sense. so the 6th hitter in the lineup is going to 'feed off' the 'excitement' pierre brought to the game two innings prior when he grounded out to second? how exactly does this feeding process work?

[bring stone back]

In Pierre we knew we were getting a guy coming off a down year, but could get on base, steal bases and bring an element this team hasn't had in quite some time....someone to put the defense on their heels because of pure speed and energy (see last night's error on Cabrera. You think he makes that error if anyone else is running home from 3rd)?

 

In Jones we knew we were getting a better outfielder, a streaky player with the ability to help carry a team for a couple weeks and then disappear for a couple weeks. You take the good with the bad...why the shock?

 

I disagree about both of those. In short, Pierre's season may not have been a fluke and I'm not sold on the "pure speed and energy" aspect. Jones is just bad.

 

This is the point though. People disagree. When people complain about this sort of thing I don't really understand what they want. Should we have 5 page threads commending Barrett for his double? A "Congrats on fielding a groundball correctly" thread? This is a place for discussion, and inevitably disagreements and therefore debate will happen, and happen often.

 

No, but should you have a 10 page thread about how bad someone sucks because of a strike out, passed ball, error, etc? They happen.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

In Pierre we knew we were getting a guy coming off a down year, but could get on base, steal bases and bring an element this team hasn't had in quite some time....someone to put the defense on their heels because of pure speed and energy (see last night's error on Cabrera. You think he makes that error if anyone else is running home from 3rd)?

 

In Jones we knew we were getting a better outfielder, a streaky player with the ability to help carry a team for a couple weeks and then disappear for a couple weeks. You take the good with the bad...why the shock?

 

I disagree about both of those. In short, Pierre's season may not have been a fluke and I'm not sold on the "pure speed and energy" aspect. Jones is just bad.

 

This is the point though. People disagree. When people complain about this sort of thing I don't really understand what they want. Should we have 5 page threads commending Barrett for his double? A "Congrats on fielding a groundball correctly" thread? This is a place for discussion, and inevitably disagreements and therefore debate will happen, and happen often.

 

No, but should you have a 10 page thread about how bad someone sucks because of a strike out, passed ball, error, etc? They happen.

 

Threads don't go to 10 pages because of a specific incident, they extend to people's views of the parties involved on the whole.

[rocket]

 

You don't think it's a little ridiculous to overreact after 19 games? Does Ramirez suck, too? I know...let's try and trade him. Nevermind, we probably can't because Hendry sucks, too, right?

 

If Aramis had a really awful year last year, then yes we'd probably complain that Ramirez sucks.

 

But Ramirez gets the benefit of the doubt. Because of Pierre's season last year, he does not.

 

As much as people keep talking about Pierre's "awful season" last year, I think he scored runs and stole over 50 bases. Considering it was such an awful season for him, I'm excited to see what he can do with Walker, a healthy Lee and Ramirez can do behind him.

 

Walker, Lee, and Ramirez behind him is pretty equal to Castillo, Cabrera, and Delgado behind him. I don't think those 3 behind him will have a significant impact on his numbers.

[Andy]

I'm with TT here. It's not that some of us only see the negatives, it's that there is more debate and disagreement about the negatives, therefore creating long threads about the bad stuff.

[soccer10k]

I couldn't agree with you more. Another thing to add on to yours that ticks me off is that nobody gives Hendry any credit for putting together one of the best bullpens in the majors this year. All anybody wants to talk about is how he didn't upgrade the offense. I think that Cedeno and Murton are proving that Hendry didn't need to significantly upgrade the offense.

 

Also, somebody else said that the reason Ramirez isn't getting booed is because he had a great year last year while Jones and Pierre didn't. That's BS. What a player did the year before should have no affect on that. Ramirez has stunk it up at least as bad as Jones has so far this year so if you are going to boo Jacque, you need to boo Aramis also. Again, don't give me the star player crap because as I recall the fans booed Sosa in 2004 and he was a much bigger star in Chicago than Aramis will ever be with the exception of if he carries, and I mean CARRIES, the team to a World Series.

 

I do get tired of hearing all the complaining. I even made a point in the beginning of today's game thread that whenever Neifi is brought up, a huge debate ensues because it happened before the game even started. That happened before Bruce Miles stopped by to deliver the starting lineups. But like TT said, people are going to have debates on here because eventually the material praising somebody runs out. But when people continue to make the same points over and over again and then start basically the same thread a couple weeks later, I don't even look at the new thread.

 

Hopefully everything will work out and everybody will be happy at the end of the season. Because if we win the World Series, Jacque Jones getting signed won't matter anymore.

[Danny82]

I'm with TT here. It's not that some of us only see the negatives, it's that there is more debate and disagreement about the negatives, therefore creating long threads about the bad stuff.

 

While that may be true, I think it's fair to say that some here do only see the negative. Or, if nothing else, that's all they ever choose to post about.

[SonnyD]

I come to the board, I don't post often, I try not to. However I do read the board everyday. The Cubs now in the early season are 12 - 7. They have now 2 Rookie starting pitchers in the rotation. They have 2 Rookies playing everyday. They have there numbers 1 and 3 starers on the DL to go along with there best hitter.

 

Im I reading correctly, 12W 7L with all the above and people are still talking about a few of the Cubs players that are in early season slumps? They go to the ballpark to boo them players and still can not say one positive thing about them when they do something good.

I read last night about someone not wanting to Jones to swing at the first pitch, yet he hit a HR ont he first pitch to put the game away for us!

I read today about Pierre not hitting the ball out of the infield, yet he hit a double to the OF last night when we really need a runner on!

 

I read Baker is a bad manager and hurts the team more then he helps it. However I see nothing on the good moves he has made this season, but every time he pinch hits Perez, a new thread on the board is started. If anything Baker has risen the expectations of Cub fans and I don't think anyone can denny that! Prior to Baker coming to the Cubs, I don't recall being at, hearing on TV or radio a Cubs game were our own players were booed, why is that?

 

We won a game tonight, yet I'm not sure I will read once about the sac bunt by Jones. The move Baker made to call it.

How Baker took Marshall out at just the right time with 96 pitches thrown, his high for the season. How Baker has been very good about getting Marshall out of the game when his pitch count gets near 80 or 90 pitches.

 

I'm going on, this is not about Baker, it is not about Perez, Jones, Pierre, Rameriz (who by the way has not been hitting the cover off the ball, yet I have not heard one person boo him).

 

This is about why? What will it take for you to be happy? You pay your money, I understand that, and have the right to voice our opinion! Is a classic ansewr, you also have the right not to be a FAN (An ardent devotee; an enthusiast.) If you are so unhappy with this 12 - 7 team, why do you pay your money? If you are so unhappy with a few players on the team, why go?

 

The treatment of the fans to our own players, I had never seen prior to the last few years! NEVER! Why is it? I really don't understand it..

 

I have never seen so many Cub fans that want to cut up a wonderful win with, Baker should have, Jones needs to stop, or something else negative. I see a thread on "Bad Baker Moves", yet I can not find one for good moves! Have we really as Cub fans become so negative? Please don't tell me well it is has been 98 years since our last WS! That is a great talking point if you have been around for all 98 of them years! Kids born in the 1980's say it has been 98 years, news flash - you have been around for 26 of them and probably have been following the Cubs for 1/2 of them years!

 

All I'm asking is when did it become the "thing to do" to boo our own players? I remember hearing boo's for other teams, but our own team? How can you say in a straight face, I'm a Cubs fan, I support the Cubs and turn around at the game and boo? Is that a new form of support I don't know about?

 

It's nice to see a REAL cub fan finally come out and speak. I couldn' have put it any better myself. I too have surfed this forum for awhile, just to read up on things and get other "so-called" Cub fan's perspectives on things. But to be quite honest with you, seeing these people continuously bitch about everything (in fact, there is a thread just below this one saying something to th affect of "I can't stand Pierre" or something like that I haven't read yet, don't know if I really want to), has really soured me towards alot of these, again, "so-called" Cub fans.

 

The Cubs haven't won a damn thing in close to a century, yet all of a sudden everyone develops this consciousness and they want to boo JJ, bitch abou Pierre, etc, etc....And your right, I posted the exact same observation on another thread (JJ thread) how people bitched about JJ first pitch swinging, yet he hit a 3 run shot on a first pitch, fastball that was out of the strike zone, and NO ONE said anything about that. No one has yet to respond to me on that one.

 

The thing that gets me is alot of these guys are so caught up on "stats" and NO ONE brings up other characteristics that people bring to the table. Trust me, if anyone has ever played competitive baseball, or any sport for that matter, there's alot more than simply stats. How about leadership, how about giving 100% everyday on every play, and possibly rubbing off on others? How about bringing experience a winning attitude from winning teams (ala WS in Florida for Pierre, and JJ in Minny winning the division 3 years in a row and ALWAYS being competitive with less than stellar talent). Did these 2 players have everything to do with their respective teams success?? Obviously not. But they contributed, probably alot more than anyone on here wants to give them credit for. Bottom line is, they are coming from winning teams and I believe their attitudes and work ethic is rubbing off. It's just like life, you surround yourself with good character, winning people and good things will happen.

 

Again, everyone always talks about "stats" and "stats" alone. I even read a quote from Walker attributing alot of his early success to Pierre (I wish I can remember where I read it so some of these people can read it). When you read things from teammates talking about the things certain players bring to the clubhouse, the positive attitude and the hard work, believe me those things have an affect on people around you that can't be quantified by stats. Again, if you haven't played organized ball, you probably won't understand that. This booing and bashing crap after 3 weeks is absolutely sickening.

 

I made a comment in another thread earlier that 75% of Cub fans aren't really Cub fans. Perhaps that was a bit harsh, but the negtive crap around here about the team and certain players pisses me off. Again, we haven't won the WS in 100 years, lets give some fresh faces, with winning positive attitudes and backgrounds, a chance to play......Besides, who other than D-Lee and Maddux have we had in here recently with winning backgrounds and good team personalities? (And don't say Alou and Garciaparra, I wouldn't exactly call them good team players, besides Garciaparra hardly even played). And we've seen the affect D-Lee and Maddux have had on the team. You'd be amazed at what happens when you surround yourself with winners...

 

Thank you ATCfootball for your post, it's nice to see Cub fans being positive and backing the team 100%.

[Andy]

Looks like SonnyD has anointed ATC as a Real Cubs Fan. I eagerly await the next induction.

[rocket]

I love it when people get to arbitrarily choose what constitutes a real fan and a so-called fan.

 

Get over yourself people. No one who posts on this board is any better/worse a fan than anyone else on this board. It doesn't matter what players you like, what your thoughts on stats are, how important you think team chemistry is, what players you boo, what players you cheer, or anything. We're all equals. Saying someone is not a real fan because they don't look at the game the same way you do is childish and pathetic. Get over yourself.

[soccer10k]

I agree with SonnyD on the point that some people get too caught up in the stats and don't think about anything else. I know stats are very useful, but to use them as your Bible for baseball isn't.

[bring stone back]

 

You don't think it's a little ridiculous to overreact after 19 games? Does Ramirez suck, too? I know...let's try and trade him. Nevermind, we probably can't because Hendry sucks, too, right?

 

If Aramis had a really awful year last year, then yes we'd probably complain that Ramirez sucks.

 

But Ramirez gets the benefit of the doubt. Because of Pierre's season last year, he does not.

 

As much as people keep talking about Pierre's "awful season" last year, I think he scored runs and stole over 50 bases. Considering it was such an awful season for him, I'm excited to see what he can do with Walker, a healthy Lee and Ramirez can do behind him.

 

Walker, Lee, and Ramirez behind him is pretty equal to Castillo, Cabrera, and Delgado behind him. I don't think those 3 behind him will have a significant impact on his numbers.

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

[soccer10k]

I love it when people get to arbitrarily choose what constitutes a real fan and a so-called fan.

 

Get over yourself people. No one who posts on this board is any better/worse a fan than anyone else on this board. It doesn't matter what players you like, what your thoughts on stats are, how important you think team chemistry is, what players you boo, what players you cheer, or anything. We're all equals. Saying someone is not a real fan because they don't look at the game the same way you do is childish and pathetic. Get over yourself.

 

Booing Jacque relentlessly but letting Aramis slide is stupid. I'm not saying you personally do it Rocket, but there are thousands of fans that do it at the stadium every day.

[bring stone back]

I agree with SonnyD on the point that some people get too caught up in the stats and don't think about anything else. I know stats are very useful, but to use them as your Bible for baseball isn't.

 

Could not agree more. Well said.

 

I don't think that opinion will be shared on this board.

[rocket]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

[rocket]

I love it when people get to arbitrarily choose what constitutes a real fan and a so-called fan.

 

Get over yourself people. No one who posts on this board is any better/worse a fan than anyone else on this board. It doesn't matter what players you like, what your thoughts on stats are, how important you think team chemistry is, what players you boo, what players you cheer, or anything. We're all equals. Saying someone is not a real fan because they don't look at the game the same way you do is childish and pathetic. Get over yourself.

 

Booing Jacque relentlessly but letting Aramis slide is stupid. I'm not saying you personally do it Rocket, but there are thousands of fans that do it at the stadium every day.

 

Well I personally think booing any player at Wrigley is stupid, but I've been in that debate before already.

 

I'm not thrilled about Aramis' slow start, but I'm pretty confident that when all is said and done, he will have a 900+ OPS and he'll be a very productive player for the Cubs. I don't have that same confidence in Pierre or Jones.

[erik316wttn]

I'll be completely, totally, 100% happy once they don't rip my heart out and stomp on it.

 

Win a championship and people will have very short memories.

[bring stone back]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

 

How many RBI's would Lee and Ramirez have had last year with a mediocre leadoff man? I think you'd agree many more.

 

I think the 2, 3 and 4 hitters we put out there have the ability to do more with Pierre getting on base than he had in Florida. Pierre getting on base will help those guys and their ability to come through with runners on will help Pierre.

 

As I mentioned before, Lee made the analogy before the season that Pierre will have the same impact that Podsednik did for the Sox last year. His energy, speed and ability to get on base provides a spark and catalyst for the rest of the lineup to feed off of.

[soccer10k]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

 

If you go from having no leadoff hitter one year (CPatt, Neifi, whoever else we put there) to even an average leadoff hitter (Pierre) it's going to help you a lot. All of a sudden Walker is batting with a runner on more often so DLee and Ramirez will also. It's unfortunate that Lee got hurt because I had no doubt that his RBI total would have increased by at least 10 this year even if his HR's and BA went down a bit. He would have benefitted from having Pierre leading off.

[Andy]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

 

If you go from having no leadoff hitter one year (CPatt, Neifi, whoever else we put there) to even an average leadoff hitter (Pierre) it's going to help you a lot. All of a sudden Walker is batting with a runner on more often so DLee and Ramirez will also. It's unfortunate that Lee got hurt because I had no doubt that his RBI total would have increased by at least 10 this year even if his HR's and BA went down a bit. He would have benefitted from having Pierre leading off.

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

[soccer10k]

I'll be completely, totally, 100% happy once they don't rip my heart out and stomp on it.

 

Win a championship and people will have very short memories.

 

Not necessarily. Red Sox fans are complaining already.

[rocket]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

 

How many RBI's would Lee and Ramirez have had last year with a mediocre leadoff man? I think you'd agree many more.

 

I think the 2, 3 and 4 hitters we put out there have the ability to do more with Pierre getting on base than he had in Florida. Pierre getting on base will help those guys and their ability to come through with runners on will help Pierre.

 

As I mentioned before, Lee made the analogy before the season that Pierre will have the same impact that Podsednik did for the Sox last year. His energy, speed and ability to get on base provides a spark and catalyst for the rest of the lineup to feed off of.

 

But Pierre didn't get on base all that much. While his OBP was superior to Patterson's, I dont think it would amount to that many more RBI for Lee.

 

As for the Scott Podsednik comparison, let's just say I disagree with the impact he had...unless he somehow helped the Sox get amazing pitching performances last season.