SonnyD

It's nice to see a REAL cub fan finally come out and speak. I couldn' have put it any better myself. I too have surfed this forum for awhile, just to read up on things and get other "so-called" Cub fan's perspectives on things. But to be quite honest with you, seeing these people continuously bitch about everything (in fact, there is a thread just below this one saying something to th affect of "I can't stand Pierre" or something like that I haven't read yet, don't know if I really want to), has really soured me towards alot of these, again, "so-called" Cub fans. The Cubs haven't won a damn thing in close to a century, yet all of a sudden everyone develops this consciousness and they want to boo JJ, bitch abou Pierre, etc, etc....And your right, I posted the exact same observation on another thread (JJ thread) how people bitched about JJ first pitch swinging, yet he hit a 3 run shot on a first pitch, fastball that was out of the strike zone, and NO ONE said anything about that. No one has yet to respond to me on that one. The thing that gets me is alot of these guys are so caught up on "stats" and NO ONE brings up other characteristics that people bring to the table. Trust me, if anyone has ever played competitive baseball, or any sport for that matter, there's alot more than simply stats. How about leadership, how about giving 100% everyday on every play, and possibly rubbing off on others? How about bringing experience a winning attitude from winning teams (ala WS in Florida for Pierre, and JJ in Minny winning the division 3 years in a row and ALWAYS being competitive with less than stellar talent). Did these 2 players have everything to do with their respective teams success?? Obviously not. But they contributed, probably alot more than anyone on here wants to give them credit for. Bottom line is, they are coming from winning teams and I believe their attitudes and work ethic is rubbing off. It's just like life, you surround yourself with good character, winning people and good things will happen. Again, everyone always talks about "stats" and "stats" alone. I even read a quote from Walker attributing alot of his early success to Pierre (I wish I can remember where I read it so some of these people can read it). When you read things from teammates talking about the things certain players bring to the clubhouse, the positive attitude and the hard work, believe me those things have an affect on people around you that can't be quantified by stats. Again, if you haven't played organized ball, you probably won't understand that. This booing and bashing crap after 3 weeks is absolutely sickening. I made a comment in another thread earlier that 75% of Cub fans aren't really Cub fans. Perhaps that was a bit harsh, but the negtive crap around here about the team and certain players pisses me off. Again, we haven't won the WS in 100 years, lets give some fresh faces, with winning positive attitudes and backgrounds, a chance to play......Besides, who other than D-Lee and Maddux have we had in here recently with winning backgrounds and good team personalities? (And don't say Alou and Garciaparra, I wouldn't exactly call them good team players, besides Garciaparra hardly even played). And we've seen the affect D-Lee and Maddux have had on the team. You'd be amazed at what happens when you surround yourself with winners... Thank you ATCfootball for your post, it's nice to see Cub fans being positive and backing the team 100%.

Next time you go to a game, perhaps you should turn to the fans next to you and you guys should boo eachother, instead of booing JJ. Close to 100 years and counting, and supporting the Tribune Co faithfully..... The Tribune Company hasn't been involved for 100 years, but I'm sure you knew that, being a real Cubs fan and all. Really?????

Next time you go to a game, perhaps you should turn to the fans next to you and you guys should boo eachother, instead of booing JJ. Close to 100 years and counting, and supporting the Tribune Co faithfully.....

I'm glad you do, because it's about time a real cub fan spoke up and opened some eyes..... You didn't even read this thread! We're trashing Jockstrap because he compared us negatively to TWINS fans because "they are there through thick and thin", which might be the stupidest Cubs-related thing ever said. That led to a discussion of if and when booing is acceptable. But it's good to know that you think you are "the voice" of Cubs fans when you can't even read a damn message board thread well enough to know what it's about. This is precisely my point, you don't get my post at all......I understand EXACTLY what this thread is all about. Using terms like "Jockstrap" is exactly my point....

Some of my good friends, Sox fans, once said to me that only 1 in 4 Cub fans know anything about baseball, the others are just there for Budweisers, Bars, and Babes......Unfortunately, I've learned that they were right.

I'm glad you do, because it's about time a real cub fan spoke up and opened some eyes.....

This thread is a perfect example of a typical Cub fan (75% of Cub fans fall into this category). The thread started off bitching about how JJ swung at the first pitch after a walk, how bad of a player he is, etc, etc...... He hits a 3 home run, and people start praising him. Also, I've gotten pretty tired of reading through all 10 pages, but I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about how JJ homerun was on a 1st pitch, fastball, out of the strike zone? Yet his other 1st pitch swings were stupid. :?:

How is it stupid and how are you punishing yourself? Last I checked, tons of people all over the US go on strike and don't go to work when there is a "general consensus" among employees that something in the workplace is "unfair" or "wrong". And we are talking about individuals' livelihood for God's sake, not a baseball game. My point is, if 40k people stop going to the games, perhaps ownership will one day get the picture. It takes a collective effort, but someone has to start. That's the problem with Cub fans, they continue to go to games because of the atmosphere, down some Budweisers, join guys like Farnsworth after the game at the Cubby Bear, Hi-Tops and the like, and then boo a guy like JJ as if he was suppose to be the savior after going nearly a century without winning a WS.....

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the BEST way to show your disapproval of the GM (and ownership) is to STOP GOING TO THE GAMES!!

Key word.......No luck thus far

I think JH is going to make a push for Albert Pujols right after tomorrow's game......

sometimes you have to take the game out of abstraction and look at what was going on in the game. big gigantic right handed hitter, Lowe burying sinker after sinker at the ankles and in the dirt, Navarro having trouble picking and even more trouble on the transfer, and the infield unable to hold Pierre close. if he goes, there is very little chance that he is thrown out. I agree with the original poster (although I do not agree that he should always have the green light). I don't know if it was a hit and run with Walker up or not, but Pierre should have been at second two or three pitches before that. I was speaking in general and not to that specific situation, I agree that circumstances define when it's appropriate to try to take 3rd. That was the point of my post, speaking of particular circumstances. That's precisely what I saw last night as well, an opportunity for Pierre to be sitting on 3rd. And that's what I meant about the team and manager being smarter, I don't know if it was a hit and run or not. But that was a situation that he should have been allowed to straight steal....

I realize he probably doesn't have the green light throughout the entire game, but I think he needs to have the green light out there at pretty much anytime. Last night was a perfect example that we, as a team and as a manager, still have not learned how to utilize our speed. I know we stole 3 bags last night, but could have and should have been more. I didn’t watch the whole game, but caught the 5th inning on. In the 6th inning, with Walker up, 2-1 count and Pierre on 1st, why would you not take a pitch, especially since Pierre was halfway to 2nd when Walker hit the pop-out? Next up, D-Lee. Pierre steals 2nd, and again we swung (this time Lee missed and allowed Pierre to steal 2nd) on his steal attempt. And with a 2-1 count, I practically was yelling for Pierre to steal 3rd as well. Especially since you have a sinker ball pitcher on the mound and a righty at the plate. I realize there is only 1 out and your boppers are up, but why not be aggressive and take the base if the opportunity is there, especially with Pierre having such a good lead at 2nd? We obviously didn’t score that inning but could have had Pierre stolen 3rd just before D-Lee’s liner. I know people may say hindsight is 20/20, but I was calling for it as the game was going on. Both times that Pierre attempted to steal that inning our batters swung and didn’t take a pitch. Fast forward to the bottom of the ninth. With 2 outs and Drew up, 0-1 count, Lofton steals 2nd. The thing I noticed with Drew is he had absolutely no intention whatsoever to swing at Ohman’s offering with Lofton running, you could tell he was taking all the way (the pitch ended up a ball anyway). Next pitch, well the rest is history. That was VERY SMART baseball. We need to as a team learn how to take a pitch when you have someone like Pierre on base and straight steal. We’ve done a good job thus far at the hit and run, but it almost seems like we hit and run because we’re afraid to just straight steal. I don’t know if it’s the dugout not calling the take sign, or not calling the steal, that’s why I’m saying as a WHOLE, both the players and Dusty need to be smarter at how they approach their at-bats, particularly with runners on base……

Thank you. That was precisely my point back on page 4 of this thread....I hope the fans lay off the guy now.

I thought it was pretty classy of the guy to be on the SCORE today after the game. He even commented that he deserves the boos and all he can do is go out and play the game as best as he can, and that he'll turn it around. The big difference between Jacque and Patterson is that Jacque actually cares. You can tell after his 2nd (maybe 3rd) strikeout today he was VERY upset with himself walking back to the dugout. Fans booing him really isn't going to help. I don't think I ever remember Corey ever showing any emotion or disgust after his numerous O-for games. All I recall is him walking back to the dugout with that smart-ass smirk on his face like it was everyone else's fault but his. Give Jacque a break, you can tell he wants to do well and he's pressing right now. The boos aren't going to help him. If the guy didn't care, I'd say go ahead and boo the guy. But you can tell he wants to do well, so let's give the guy a chance.....

that just makes me wonder why i can get the runner home from third but the cubs cant Have sex with 3 women.......Now you can figure out how to get the job done with the bases loaded (obviously Dusty has never had sex with 3 women before).

Have sex.......

When Neifi replaces Cedeno at short........ :shock:

Boy, it sure did get awfully quiet in here.......Neifi must have gone 3 for 4 or something :D

There is such a site, or service, that actually tracks defensive players based on all of those factors. I heard him on the Score 670 in my car last week as he rated middle infielders, and I believe he was going to be on this week as well. I tried to remember the website address but I forgot. Anyone know or heard the segment as well?? It was on around noon last Tuesday I believe. Pretty interesting and neat stuff. I remeber them saying that Juan Uribe was their highest rated SS, and Adrian Beltre for 3rd base. I definitely would like to know what the name of that service is, and their website address if anyone has it......

In both of your examples, that player is BOTH very good and CLUTCH. Why do I get I sense that some people don't think that a player can be both good and clutch at the same time. It goes hand and hand. I'll end my thoughts on this subject with one last example (otherwise we can take it to another thread), but if a player hits .265/.295 throught his entire career, but hits .325/.390 with RISP, that plyer isn't a very good player, but he sure is hell was "Clutch"..........Whether or not there are players out there with those types of numbers is besides the point. The fact of the matter is that it CAN exist, and that's what defines clutch and not clutch. Again, I realize they usually go hand and hand, but that's why they are both Good and Clutch hitters. Julio Lugo has demonstrated last year (and progrssively gotten better every year) he is a good hitter. I think he's only going to continue to get better.

Sorry about my last post (I realize it doesn;t belong in this thread), was actually typing it up as the last post went up...

Anyone have a link to the clutch debate? SonnyD is new here. You guys can post as many links as you'd like, I'd be more than happy to go through those debates, but there is no way I will change my mind on "clutch hitters". "Clutch" is all relative. Relative to when and how often it happens. A player can be a cluth hitter for a day. For example, 8th inning, 2 outs, down 1 run, men on 2nd and 3rd, hits a double to knock the go ahead run in. He was a "clutch hitter" that day. A player can be a "clutch hitter" for an entire season ( DLee's .304 avg/.431obp with RISP). But the most telling line, is what a player does THROUGHOUT his career. I'm sorry, but if a player hits .325/.425obp throughout his ENTIRE career with RISP, he is a "CLUTCH HITTER". Saying there is no such thing as clutch hitting, is like saying Ichiro isn't a good hitter. He just gets lucky when he gets his hits. To put it another way, every player, every time they go to the plate, is up there with the intention to get on base. For this example, let's just say to get a hit. Would you rather have a player hit .300 with runners on base, or .300 with the bases empty??? Another example, player 1 hits .400 with RISP and .200 without. player 2 hits .200 with RISP and .400 witout. Both hitters are batting .300 OVERALL. Which scenario would you rather have??? Player 1 is obviously a "clutch hitter". The point is, situatinal hitting is VERY important, and can actually be measured and truly means something.

I've got a better one for you. Guys that want to sit here and read gossip stories are like women. The only reason I brought that up was to make a point (seeing things first hand) that Lugo is NOT the ONLY one with these character issues. I by no means wanted to turn this into an AOL gossip/story chatline...... First of all, your are DEAD wrong when you say players are not predictable in situational hitting. Ever hear of the phrase "Clutch Hitter??" Some players are born for those types of situations. I am not saying Lugo is a "clutch hitter", simply laying the stats out for everyone to see and decide. Regardless, nobody said that was ALL that was being analyzed. We are bringing in situational hitting to compliment what we already know about Lugo (last year's stats as well as his career stats). But if it makes you feel better, then let's look at Lugo's stat line from last year: .295avg/.362obp/182 hits/39 steals/36 doubles/6 triples. Compare those numbers to the rest of the league, and justify for me why you wouldn't want this guy to be your starting 2nd/SS?????

Not my style to get into all that, but there sure are some good ones.... Anyway, here is a thread I started a month back or so: I find it interesting that no one has really discussed what counts most, situational hitting. Most notably BA with RISP, OBP with RISP, BA with RISP/2 OUTS, and OBP with RISP/2 OUTS....... So I thought I'd put together the last 2 years averages for the following players: Tejada, Furcal, Julio Lugo, (as well as D-Lee, and A Ramirez to compare current Cubs). The first average is the BA, and the 2nd figure is the OBP. What I came up with is quite interesting. Tejada: RISP (AVG/OBP) .319/.371 RISP/2 OUTS .298/.376 Furcal: RISP (AVG/OBP) .278/.383 RISP/2 OUTS .256/.401 Lugo: RISP (AVG/OBP) .312/.369 RISP/2 OUTS .276/.362 Lee: RISP (AVG/OBP) .304/.431 RISP/2 OUTS .269/.464 Ramirez: RISP (AVG/OBP) .311/.396 RISP/2 OUTS .245/.379 There are a few things to note here. In 2004, Tejada had MONSTER stats with numbers of .322/.365 with RISP and .363/.437 with RISP and 2/outs. Hence the 150 RBI's. But for comparison sake, D-Lee last year had a .331/.480 with RISP and .308/.500 with RISP/2 outs, but he only had 107 total RBI's. Basically D-Lee's numbers last year were BETTER than Tejada's in 2004, but Lee had nobody on base thus only ended up with 107 RBI's (further reason why I believe he was snubbed on the MVP voting last year). Tejada's numbers last year slipped, going .315/.376 with RISP and .298/.376 with RISP/2 Outs. What really stands out to me is this: Julio Lugo's numbers over the past 2 years are JUST as good as Tejada's in situational circumstances. Lugo doesn't have the RBI's to show for it becasue he is a top of the order batter, and his slugging percentage isn't there because he doesn't hit for power (thus you'll get the 3 run shot from Tejada, but Lugo will get on base just as often as Tejada will). What does all this mean???? I'm not exactly sure. I think if I had the choice, I would do what I have said all along, go out and get Lugo and plug him into the 2 hole. Let Pierre and Lugo set the table for guys like D-Lee and A-Ram, and I am CERTAIN D-Lee can have an MVP season and drive in 130+ RBI's. It's funny to note, A-Ram's numbers last year were not very good (that's not the part that's funny): .285/.367 with RISP and .186/.314 with RISP and 2 OUTS. What is funny is that that explains why last year we saw A-Ram running to first base and slamming his helmet after making the last out in the inning so many times with that disgusted look on his face .....