Grace: Sammy PROBABLY used roids

[CubinNY]

Chocolate Milk,

 

See that is the thing. If you read my posts througout this thread you will note that I ddi not try to defend Sammy. I never said he didn't. In fact, I said I don't know. What I did is present his homerun totals from 93-03 and they showed a natural career arc for a slugger. I questioned other peoples justification for saying Sammy was on the juice. To me it appears as if they have nothing more than bias.

 

McGuire is tottaly irrelavent to the discussion of Sammy. However, as far as I am concerned they all have the taint of steriods, but that doesn't mean they used them.

 

It is one thing to say "I suspect" and quite another to say "he did". Especially when one gives hat size and shirt size a a justification.

[soccer10k]

Given what we know about the brain inside Sammy's (not really that large) head, and given the sheer volume of other people who have been caught or had large amounts of circumstantial evidence presented against them, and given that no one other than bitter columnists, bitter ex-Cubs, and witch-hunters looking to convict anyone who gains some muscle during their prime, I am finding it harder and harder to believe Sammy used steroids.

 

I mean, seriously, I don't think anyone would argue that Sammy Sosa is the most intelligent guy on the planet - so how does he dodge ALL the circumstantial evidence when generally intelligent people such as Barry Bonds get all this dirt on them?

 

I just feel like I need more than muscle growth and refusing to submit to a witch hunt at Congress to convict Sammy, especially considering that there's no way of knowing if he would have been able to put on muscle at a younger age had he grown up in the U.S.

 

In other news: Grace is still a bitter whining douchebag. Mark and many others need to learn that retiring does not mean you have creative license to attack anyone you feel like attacking. Shut up and have some respect for people, even if you don't necessarily like them.

 

(And I agree with whoever noted that Grace played with Sammy for YEARS, including the first three of his home run binge, and yet he can offer up no new evidence.)

 

First of all, Bonds is not intelligent.

 

Second, Barry got caught up in the whole BALCO thing. If nothing happens to BALCO, nothing happens to Bonds or Sheffield or anyone else associated with BALCO. Jose Canseco never said anything about Bonds. Every accusation of Bonds contains a reference to either BALCO, Victor Conte, or Greg Anderson or a combination of the three. That's a fact.

 

It just so happens that Sosa wasn't involved with BALCO. There are plenty of major leaguers that don't have accusations swirling around them either but that doesn't mean that nobody else took steroids. That just means they covered their tracks well.

 

Also, people that are 6 feet tall aren't supposed to weigh 230 pounds like Sosa does. It's just not natural.

 

I had to break my silence.

[Chocolate Milk]

Chocolat Milk,

 

See that is the thing. If you read my posts througout this thread you will note that I ddi not try to defend Sammy. I never said he didn't. In fact, I said I don't know. What I did is present his homerun totals from 93-03 and they showed a natural career arc for a slugger. I questioned other peoples justification for saying Sammy was on the juice. To me it appears as if they have nothing more than bias.

 

McGuire is tottaly irrelavent to the discussion of Sammy. However, as far as I am concerned they all have the taint of steriods, but that doesn't mean they used them.

 

It is one thing to say "I suspect" and quite another to say "he did". Especially when one gives hat size and shirt size a a justification.

 

Fair enough. My apologies if I misconstrued your arguments. I saw that your stance on McGwire was much more harsh than your stance on Sosa while their situations were similar. It initially struck me as homerism so that's why I brought it up.

 

As far as Grace's comments go, what is there to argue with? He said that Sammy is one of those guys whom people should be suspicious of. I'm not sure many in baseball fans in America would disagree with this.

[snoodmonger]

Also, people that are 6 feet tall aren't supposed to weigh 230 pounds like Sosa does. It's just not natural.

 

????

[katway]

Aside from physical characteristics and home run totals, the one thing that leads me to lean in the Sammy was on the juice camp is that he also was low enough to use a corked bat. Using a corked bat was clearly against the rules, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was on the juice.

[Chocolate Milk]

Bonds has numerous smoking guns. Sosa has none.

 

That's because he could go to the Dominican Republic for his supply. They don't have smoking guns in the DR (except for Manny Alexander).

 

Sammy has proven that he is not above cheating, e.g. corking his bat. Given that, I am fairly confident that he would have no problem taking steroids.

 

Be careful. If you've ever gotten a speeding ticket you could be charged with murder.

 

I think that a better example would be if you've gotten a speeding ticket, it's likely you've parked in a no parking zone before.

[Soul]

Just to be clear: there's no actionable evidence Sosa took steroids.

 

 

But that cork sprayed all over the infield proves beyond any shadow of a doubt he was a cheater.

 

I'm not jumping on Sosa----I happen to love the guy despite his flaws, and despite the fact that he corked his bat.

 

But in an effort to be fair and objective............we must concede he cheated.

[SouthSideRyan]

Bonds has numerous smoking guns. Sosa has none.

 

That's because he could go to the Dominican Republic for his supply. They don't have smoking guns in the DR (except for Manny Alexander).

 

Sammy has proven that he is not above cheating, e.g. corking his bat. Given that, I am fairly confident that he would have no problem taking steroids.

 

Be careful. If you've ever gotten a speeding ticket you could be charged with murder.

 

I think that a better example would be if you've gotten a speeding ticket, it's likely you've parked in a no parking zone before.

 

Fine, if you've ever been in a fight, you could be charged with murder. Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

[UBlink]

Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

 

If he's not naming names where he has first hand knowledge, but naming names based on circumstantial evidence and speculation, that's lower than low.

[SouthSideRyan]

Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

 

If he's not naming names where he has first hand knowledge, but naming names based on circumstantial evidence and speculation, that's lower than low.

 

Which is about right for Grace.

[Chocolate Milk]

Bonds has numerous smoking guns. Sosa has none.

 

That's because he could go to the Dominican Republic for his supply. They don't have smoking guns in the DR (except for Manny Alexander).

 

Sammy has proven that he is not above cheating, e.g. corking his bat. Given that, I am fairly confident that he would have no problem taking steroids.

 

Be careful. If you've ever gotten a speeding ticket you could be charged with murder.

 

I think that a better example would be if you've gotten a speeding ticket, it's likely you've parked in a no parking zone before.

 

Fine, if you've ever been in a fight, you could be charged with murder. Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

 

Why stop at murder? Why not go straight to genocide while you are trying to marginalize that argument by making a similar, yet wildly out of proportion, argument?

 

What you want Grace to do? How is he supposed to prevent people from reporting what he is asked during interviews? It's not like he called up the paper and said, "Hey, do I have a scoop for you!" He gave a very general answer to something he probably didn't want to get into. I for one am not praising him for his comments but I'm not taking exception to them either.

[Chocolate Milk]

Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

 

If he's not naming names where he has first hand knowledge, but naming names based on circumstantial evidence and speculation, that's lower than low.

 

Where did he name names? He said Sammy is a guy to be suspicious of. He never said he knows he uses. In fact, he said quite the opposite.

[SouthSideRyan]

Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

 

If he's not naming names where he has first hand knowledge, but naming names based on circumstantial evidence and speculation, that's lower than low.

 

Where did he name names? He said Sammy is a guy to be suspicious of. He never said he knows he uses. In fact, he said quite the opposite.

 

Yet he mentioned seeing other guys, and being offered by other guys, so he obviously knows SOME people who used. Yet he used his oppurtunity once again to slam his superior former teammate.

[Chocolate Milk]

Regarding your other post, the argument is what's the point of Grace's quotes. He's bringing absolutely nothing to the table with his comments. He's providing new analysis that Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless hasn't already. Yet, somehow, because of the character of himself that he's created, he's praised for his comments, but Mariotti and Bayless are dismissed. Grace came out and said he's seen guys taking, he's been offered, then his argument for Sammy is look at his weight. Grace is either a liar or a coward regarding being offered and witnessing it firsthand. Either way it's par for the course for him.

 

If he's not naming names where he has first hand knowledge, but naming names based on circumstantial evidence and speculation, that's lower than low.

 

Where did he name names? He said Sammy is a guy to be suspicious of. He never said he knows he uses. In fact, he said quite the opposite.

 

Yet he mentioned seeing other guys, and being offered by other guys, so he obviously knows SOME people who used. Yet he used his oppurtunity once again to slam his superior former teammate.

 

He's a baseball analyst who was asked a specific question about both McGwire and Sosa. He answered it giving the same answer for both players. I suppose he could have given the radio host that question ahead of time just so he could slam Sosa. He is that diabolical.

[David]

Also, people that are 6 feet tall aren't supposed to weigh 230 pounds like Sosa does. It's just not natural.

 

????

 

Seriously.... What does that even mean???

[cubweiser03]

Bonds has numerous smoking guns. Sosa has none.

 

Sure, in fact Sosa has 2 smoking guns. Ive seen Sosa at the "Gun Show". Its hard not to be suspicous.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'll add credibility to Grace's statements when he names the players who offered him steroids.

 

Why cast a shadow over Sammy, when you know there are other cheaters like the ones who offered you the juice, Mark.

 

Let's start with those guys first. That would be informative. After you tell us what you know, then you can offer some insightful speculation.

[Blueheart05]

Bonds has numerous smoking guns. Sosa has none.

 

That's because he could go to the Dominican Republic for his supply. They don't have smoking guns in the DR (except for Manny Alexander).

 

Sammy has proven that he is not above cheating, e.g. corking his bat. Given that, I am fairly confident that he would have no problem taking steroids.

 

But that just answers part of the questions. Supply is one thing, but where would he have injected it? Sosa wouldn't have taken steriods exclusively in the DR in the offseason, would he? I don't think the drugs work like that.

 

I believe that Sammy did take steroids, but I'm just trying to figure out how he's never been ratted out.

 

 

There's no real way of knowing if he definitively took steroids but Sammy did have "personal assistant" Julian Martinez. Martinez's role came into question following the BALCO uproar and change in MLB rules about eliminating "...non-essential personnel from the clubhouse." It's very possible that he helped Sammy take performance enhancing drugs during the season. Sammy claimed that Julian was there for everyone's benefit but the truth is, Martinez had a locker next to Sosa's, was known to follow him around, and was paid a salary by Sammy with the exception of the meal money the Cubs supplied.

 

On a slightly different note, Giambi and Bonds were prevented from having their personal assistants remain with their respective teams after the new access rules went into being. I found an interesting note about Giambi's assistant:

 

When Giambi signed a seven-year, $120 million free-agent contract with the Yankees before the 2002 season, he brought Alejo, who had been the strength and conditioning coach of the Oakland Athletics, with him as a trainer. Giambi has said he wanted Alejo with him in New York "to keep me healthy."

 

The Yankees used Alejo to pitch batting practice indoors in Giambi's first season. He had a locker beside Giambi's and was a noticeable personality in the clubhouse.

 

...Giambi has emphasized Alejo's importance in keeping him fit enough to play through injuries, especially in 2003, when he played 156 games.

 

Considering Giambi has all but apologized for taking steroids, it's hard to think that Alejo was unaware of his use. It's a better bet that he was supplying and or administering the drugs. Also, there's the curious link of bringing someone over from the A's (especially in light of Canseco's claims about Palmerio, McGuire, and others in the Oakland locker room).

[Warpticon]

Also, people that are 6 feet tall aren't supposed to weigh 230 pounds like Sosa does. It's just not natural.

 

http://www.nfl.com/

[treebird]

Also, people that are 6 feet tall aren't supposed to weigh 230 pounds like Sosa does. It's just not natural.

 

http://www.nfl.com/

 

hahahah

 

nice

[Yeti]

im so sick of hearing ppl bad mouth grace, the man had the most hits in the 90's, and in his career he had 1075 BB's compared to 642 K's...i'll take that from every position and have winning club

[Warpticon]

im so sick of hearing ppl bad mouth grace, the man had the most hits in the 90's, and in his career he had 1075 BB's compared to 642 K's...i'll take that from every position and have winning club

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with comments he makes, especially after his playing career.

[Yeti]

im so sick of hearing ppl bad mouth grace, the man had the most hits in the 90's, and in his career he had 1075 BB's compared to 642 K's...i'll take that from every position and have winning club

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with comments he makes, especially after his playing career.

so the guy was asked about sosa and roids, he didnt give sammy up, probably could have(if sammy was doing something)he basicaly said "i know nothing, but then again look" yeah his mouth is freaking huge

[Warpticon]

im so sick of hearing ppl bad mouth grace, the man had the most hits in the 90's, and in his career he had 1075 BB's compared to 642 K's...i'll take that from every position and have winning club

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with comments he makes, especially after his playing career.

so the guy was asked about sosa and roids, he didnt give sammy up, probably could have(if sammy was doing something)he basicaly said "i know nothing, but then again look" yeah his mouth is freaking huge

 

Well, you were at least relevant this time. We're going somewhere. I just don't see how his being a good player should have anything to do with critique of him as a sports personality or any of his comments. Joe Morgan was one of the best second basemen of all time, and well....

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Man, my opinoin of Grace keeps sinking everytime he opens his trap.