Sportingnews Juan Pierre article

[A New Era]

Can't have it both ways. Either he's gonna shoot for around 55 SB this year, and have a success rate of 75% (or hopefully better). . Or he's not gonna steal at all.

 

I think you've made my point. I'd rather he not steal much. Even if he was at 75%, he'd barely be over the breakeven point and it wouldn't be very productive.

 

No I didn't. There's no way you are going to get Jaun Pierre to "not steal much". . :lol:. I said either let him be himself or not steal at ALL. I'm sorry I disagree. I think his success rate leads to more runs than his caught stealing negates runs.

 

The official "break even" point I beleive was 77%. Meaning 77% or higher actually lead to more runs than the caught stealing took away.

[David]

Can't have it both ways. Either he's gonna shoot for around 55 SB this year, and have a success rate of 75% (or hopefully better). . Or he's not gonna steal at all.

 

I think you've made my point. I'd rather he not steal much. Even if he was at 75%, he'd barely be over the breakeven point and it wouldn't be very productive.

 

No I didn't. There's no way you are going to get Jaun Pierre to "not steal much". . :lol:. I said either let him be himself or not steal at ALL. I'm sorry I disagree. I think his success rate leads to more runs than his caught stealing negates runs.

 

The official "break even" point I beleive was 77%. Meaning 77% or higher actually lead to more runs than the caught stealing took away.

 

Don't take me so literally. If it were up to me, he wouldn't steal at all.

 

BTW, Pierre is 74% for his career, and 73% over the last 3 years. So, you really did make my point. :wink:

[Brian]

weak hitting, base stealing (sometimes unsuccessful) lead off hitters are terrible!

 

http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10114000/10114196.jpg

 

http://www.gazzetta.it/Hermes%20Foto/2005/10/24/0IOUJPDA--280x190.jpg

 

yeah i want nothing to do with any of that.

 

Juan Pierre in center field hitting singles and stealing bases is the least of this teams problems.

[David]

weak hitting, base stealing (sometimes unsuccessful) lead off hitters are terrible!

 

http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10114000/10114196.jpg

 

http://www.gazzetta.it/Hermes%20Foto/2005/10/24/0IOUJPDA--280x190.jpg

 

yeah i want nothing to do with any of that.

 

Juan Pierre in center field hitting singles and stealing bases is the least of this teams problems.

 

How bout a picture of Josh Beckett and Mark Buerhle or Jose Contreras (or any of those guys, for that matter)... That'd actually be a much better correlation to make..

[Brian]

How bout a picture of Josh Beckett and Mark Buerhle or Jose Contreras (or any of those guys, for that matter)... That'd actually be a much better correlation to make..

 

I'm not saying that they are the sole reason for victory, but they certainly didn't hurt their team. 2 of the last 3 World Series have had the same style lead off hitter, we have the guy that did it once if you want to rip apart the construction of the team I think it's more logical to look elsewhere.

[David]

How bout a picture of Josh Beckett and Mark Buerhle or Jose Contreras (or any of those guys, for that matter)... That'd actually be a much better correlation to make..

 

I'm not saying that they are the sole reason for victory, but they certainly didn't hurt their team. 2 of the last 3 World Series have had the same style lead off hitter, we have the guy that did it once if you want to rip apart the construction of the team I think it's more logical to look elsewhere.

 

Not that I have a huge problem with Murton (or really Pierre for that matter), but I'd start by ripping up the whole outfield. It's terrible. Can't complain a whole lot about the infield or pitching staff.

[A New Era]

How bout a picture of Josh Beckett and Mark Buerhle or Jose Contreras (or any of those guys, for that matter)... That'd actually be a much better correlation to make..

 

I'm not saying that they are the sole reason for victory, but they certainly didn't hurt their team. 2 of the last 3 World Series have had the same style lead off hitter, we have the guy that did it once if you want to rip apart the construction of the team I think it's more logical to look elsewhere.

 

Yeah, good point. I'm tired of defending Jaun Pierre, when he doesn't even need to be defended. I'm done with that.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

weak hitting, base stealing (sometimes unsuccessful) lead off hitters are terrible!

 

http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10114000/10114196.jpg

 

http://www.gazzetta.it/Hermes%20Foto/2005/10/24/0IOUJPDA--280x190.jpg

 

yeah i want nothing to do with any of that.

 

Juan Pierre in center field hitting singles and stealing bases is the least of this teams problems.

 

Juan better avoid that .274/.324 line he posted last year, otherwise he will be one of the teams' problems.

[frostwyrm]

http://www.butterfatmastermind.com/auctions/images/sempron/LennyDaChamp.jpg

[CuseCubFan69]

Why don't we keep the stats on how many times Pierre is thrown out stealing vs how many times he is the front part of a DP?

[Balsa]

I think a lot of people who don't like Pierre as the threat he is are going to change their minds over the season by watching him play.

[stitchface]

 

There's a big difference there. Maddux in his prime struck out a decent amount of hitters, and his hallmark was exceptional control. Pierre essentially ignores one of the most important parts of hitting, hitting for extra bases, in lieu of not striking out, which isn't nearly as important. When Pierre sacrifices power for contact, it lessens his offensive value.

 

Offensive value and power are not mutually exclusive. His offensive value lies in his ability in getting basehits, not striking out, stealing bases and scoring runs

 

Yes, but in his quest to not strike out, he loses power. The power is much more valuable than the ability to not strike out. By taking a "contact at all costs" approach, he limits the player he could be.

 

he loses power, which he probably wouldn't have much anyway, and gains obp. in this case, I think the increase in OBP is worth the loss of power. its not like he'd be adam dunn if he struck out more.

 

I can't see his OBP dropping much if at all by just trying to make more solid contact all the time. First of all, I'm not talking about just hacking away with two strikes, I'm talking about getting his pitch and driving it, not just trying to put the ball in play and run. Furthermore, with the amount of weak contact he makes in all counts because of his approach, He's not losing a bunch of singles to gain the doubles and triples. Of course he's not going to become Adam Dunn, but he'd be better, and that's better for us.

 

Why is it ok for you to ignore the fact that his obp would drop if he struck out more?

[Warpticon]

 

There's a big difference there. Maddux in his prime struck out a decent amount of hitters, and his hallmark was exceptional control. Pierre essentially ignores one of the most important parts of hitting, hitting for extra bases, in lieu of not striking out, which isn't nearly as important. When Pierre sacrifices power for contact, it lessens his offensive value.

 

Offensive value and power are not mutually exclusive. His offensive value lies in his ability in getting basehits, not striking out, stealing bases and scoring runs

 

Yes, but in his quest to not strike out, he loses power. The power is much more valuable than the ability to not strike out. By taking a "contact at all costs" approach, he limits the player he could be.

 

he loses power, which he probably wouldn't have much anyway, and gains obp. in this case, I think the increase in OBP is worth the loss of power. its not like he'd be adam dunn if he struck out more.

 

I can't see his OBP dropping much if at all by just trying to make more solid contact all the time. First of all, I'm not talking about just hacking away with two strikes, I'm talking about getting his pitch and driving it, not just trying to put the ball in play and run. Furthermore, with the amount of weak contact he makes in all counts because of his approach, He's not losing a bunch of singles to gain the doubles and triples. Of course he's not going to become Adam Dunn, but he'd be better, and that's better for us.

 

Why is it ok for you to ignore the fact that his obp would drop if he struck out more?

 

Maybe because that's not a fact?

[UK1679666180]

Stolen Bases are more effective as a ratio than an accumulative number. If the manager is the one calling the steal sign, a player's effectiveness is determined by the tendency of the manager.

 

Pierre had plenty of SBs last year despite a terrible OBP, he had less chances to steal 2B compared to previous years, but attempted to steal more frequently.

 

Which player helped their team more, a player who had 56SB to 19CS or the player who had 13SB and only 1CS?

 

For the amount of times advancing to 2B helped the offense, getting thrown out severely reduced the odds of scoring during the inning.

 

Pierre's success next year will be determined by his ability to get on base and not his SBs. Pierre can have 110 SBs next year, if he still has an OBP around .320, he won't be helping the team, b/c he'll always be effective about 75% on the bases.

Edited March 9, 2006 by UK

[Catman61]

Well there is at least 1 statement by the author that doesn't ring true

 

A leadoff man must give of himself generously, taking drool-inducing fastballs so his teammates can get a good look at the opposing pitcher

 

"When you're in that spot, you've got to look at things different," Pierre says. "Part of it is giving up yourself. You have to take pitches and make the pitcher work

 

Taking pitches has not been a strength of Pierre's

[noisesquared]

Well there is at least 1 statement by the author that doesn't ring true

 

A leadoff man must give of himself generously, taking drool-inducing fastballs so his teammates can get a good look at the opposing pitcher

 

"When you're in that spot, you've got to look at things different," Pierre says. "Part of it is giving up yourself. You have to take pitches and make the pitcher work

 

Taking pitches has not been a strength of Pierre's

 

I believe that Pierre doesn't get many pitches to take. The opposition knows Pierre's not going to get a lot of extra-base hits nor is he going to K much, so why not throw the ball over the plate? They absolutely don't want to walk him, and give him the opportunity to steal second.

 

I have no factual evidence to back up this claim, but logically I think it makes sense.

[illiniguy]

Well there is at least 1 statement by the author that doesn't ring true

 

A leadoff man must give of himself generously, taking drool-inducing fastballs so his teammates can get a good look at the opposing pitcher

 

"When you're in that spot, you've got to look at things different," Pierre says. "Part of it is giving up yourself. You have to take pitches and make the pitcher work

 

Taking pitches has not been a strength of Pierre's

 

I believe that Pierre doesn't get many pitches to take. The opposition knows Pierre's not going to get a lot of extra-base hits nor is he going to K much, so why not throw the ball over the plate? They absolutely don't want to walk him, and give him the opportunity to steal second.

 

I have no factual evidence to back up this claim, but logically I think it makes sense.

I know two years ago in the playoffs I was all for our pitchers not wasting their pitch count and just letting him try to hit his way on rather than walk him into a double.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Pierre was 3rd in triples last season (13) and way down the list in doubles, so saying he doesn't get that many XBH is a little misleading. It looks like when he gets an XBH, it's a triple b/c of his speed.

 

Pods had a whopping 1 3B last season (and 28 doubles to Pierre's 19). Compare Pierre to other speedsters like Chone Figgins, Pods, and Reyes. He's not that bad.

 

* I used to rag on Pierre too, but considering what other teams use for leadoff hitters, he isn't that bad. It's not his fault Chicago doesn't use the Oakland A's method for playing baseball. It's about getting the best players we can in that old school system, rather than bitching about not getting monster OBP guys (it's futile).

[TheDude]

I'm not saying that they are the sole reason for victory, but they certainly didn't hurt their team. 2 of the last 3 World Series have had the same style lead off hitter, we have the guy that did it once if you want to rip apart the construction of the team I think it's more logical to look elsewhere.

 

Actually 3 out of 4 (or even 4 out of 4 depending on whether you penalize Damon for his power or not, and what SB threshold you count).

 

Nobody in this thread is going to sway the opinions of others in the baseball philosophical difference between "small ball" and "sitting ducks" styles baseball.

 

If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

You don't have to like it, but you should root for Pierre to do what he does best. And with a constant diet of Walker or Murton in the 2-hole behind Pierre, the Cubs front 4 might score 350+ runs.

[goonys evil twin]

If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

[CubinNY]

If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

Just to piggy back here. In addition, the Cubs are lacking at least one run producer in the middle. Right now I would say their offense is slightly below average to average. If DLee or Aramis regresses significantly to the mean or below the mean of the career performance the Cubs will have a hard time scoring runs.

 

I think Slap Nasty is an upgrade from the previous years but the Cubs are still lacking consistent run producing people, at least as it stands right now.

[Chocolate Milk]

I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

 

Right on. It's pretty hard not to like Pierre. He is obviously a hard worker and seems to be a great guy.

 

If he can put up at 360ish OBP from the leadoff spot this year, I'll love him. True, he doesn't get many XBH and that cuts down his production, but considering our production out of the leadoff spot last year, I'm not too upset with Pierre.

[BigbadB]

If Pierre is not running into unnecessary outs (caught stealing, caught attempting to take an extra base, picked off) and Todd Walker, Matt Murton or Jerry Hairston Jr. are batting 2nd instead of Neifi Perez, the offense will be okay. Not bad, not good, just okay.

[rawaction]

I like Pierre. I think he's a good pickup simply for the fact that Dusty will have someone he can put atop the order 160 times this year. No more Patterson, Perez, Enrique Wilson 1-2's.

 

And I think it's important to remember that Pierre's in a contract year. For all the talk about how bad he was last year (and he was bad), I don't see him putting up a .324 OBP again. He doesn't have much of a history of hitting in the .260s. I think we'll see a .290/.350 type year from him. Which should be good enough. I'm afraid for him to ever steal a base, though. I'm gonna be upset the first time he gets caught with Derrek Lee coming to the plate.

[goonys evil twin]

I like Pierre. I think he's a good pickup simply for the fact that Dusty will have someone he can put atop the order 160 times this year. No more Patterson, Perez, Enrique Wilson 1-2's.

 

I agree that part of Pierre's value is it means Dusty won't be able to bat some piece of trash in the leadoff spot. But it doesn't mean a thing when it comes to the 2 hole. Neifi will still get his shot there.