[burnt out cubbie fan]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

[fromthestretch]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Colon's a good pitcher if healthy, but Felix is already on par with, if not better than Colon. That's scary, considering Felix is 19. As with all young pitchers, you worry about his health, but if he can avoid injury, he's going to dominate.

 

Something funny to note...on baseball-reference.com, Colon is listed at 6'0, 185 lbs. I don't know what scale they used to weigh him when that weight was registered, but I'd have it looked at.

[SouthSideRyan]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Well, that's just outrageous.

[radarluv1]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Colon's a good pitcher if healthy, but Felix is already on par with, if not better than Colon. That's scary, considering Felix is 19. As with all young pitchers, you worry about his health, but if he can avoid injury, he's going to dominate.

 

Something funny to note...on baseball-reference.com, Colon is listed at 6'0, 185 lbs. I don't know what scale they used to weigh him when that weight was registered, but I'd have it looked at.

 

an honest question, how does felix compare to a gooden or ankiel (or anybody that was in the bigs at that age) in minor league #'s?

[fromthestretch]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Colon's a good pitcher if healthy, but Felix is already on par with, if not better than Colon. That's scary, considering Felix is 19. As with all young pitchers, you worry about his health, but if he can avoid injury, he's going to dominate.

 

Something funny to note...on baseball-reference.com, Colon is listed at 6'0, 185 lbs. I don't know what scale they used to weigh him when that weight was registered, but I'd have it looked at.

 

an honest question, how does felix compare to a gooden or ankiel (or anybody that was in the bigs at that age) in minor league #'s?

 

Here's what I was able to put together:

 

FELIX

39 G (34 GS), 21-6, 2.72 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 263 K, 74 BB, 184 H, 218.1 IP

 

ANKIEL (before MLB debut)

21 G (21 GS), 9-6, 2.79 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 181 K, 38 BB, 91 H, 125.2 IP

 

GOODEN (before MLB debut)

38 G (38 GS), 24-9, 2.56 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 384 K, 140 BB, 185 H, 269.2 IP

[burnt out cubbie fan]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Well, that's just outrageous.

Why? He has some of the best stuff I have ever seen. I was at this game and I can honestly say that I have never seen a 19 year old dominate a major league baseball team like that. For most of the game it was almost like it wasn't even fair. One day soon, he will be known as the best pitcher in baseball.

[SouthSideRyan]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Well, that's just outrageous.

Why? He has some of the best stuff I have ever seen. I was at this game and I can honestly say that I have never seen a 19 year old dominate a major league baseball team like that. For most of the game it was almost like it wasn't even fair. One day soon, he will be known as the best pitcher in baseball.

 

Why?? Because he's 19, has pitched for only 3 seasons, and has amassed a total of 300 innings, 84 of those at the major league level. It's downright insane to say he will finish his career as one of the best ever after that kind of sample size. Especially if the crux of your argument is one game that you saw in person.

[goonys evil twin]

It's downright insane to say he will finish his career as one of the best ever after that kind of sample size. Especially if the crux of your argument is one game that you saw in person.

 

I don't understand why you have such a problem.

 

He's basically saying I think this guy is going to be amazing if he stays healthy. How can you have an issue with that statement?

[SouthSideRyan]

It's downright insane to say he will finish his career as one of the best ever after that kind of sample size. Especially if the crux of your argument is one game that you saw in person.

 

I don't understand why you have such a problem.

 

He's basically saying I think this guy is going to be amazing if he stays healthy. How can you have an issue with that statement?

 

There's amazing and there's "will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game"

 

Clemens, Maddux, and Pedro, those are guys that will be rememberred as some of the best pitchers in the history of the game. Are you really ready to throw a guy with 3 years professional experience in that group?

[goonys evil twin]

It's downright insane to say he will finish his career as one of the best ever after that kind of sample size. Especially if the crux of your argument is one game that you saw in person.

 

I don't understand why you have such a problem.

 

He's basically saying I think this guy is going to be amazing if he stays healthy. How can you have an issue with that statement?

 

There's amazing and there's "will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game"

 

Clemens, Maddux, and Pedro, those are guys that will be rememberred as some of the best pitchers in the history of the game. Are you really ready to throw a guy with 3 years professional experience in that group?

 

I'm not putting him in the group. I'm saying I don't see how you can have a problem with somebody else thinking he will one day be in that group if he doesn't get injured.

 

Would you have had a problem with somebody who watched a little bit of Clemens as a youngster and proclaimed he would be remembered as one of the greats if he stayed healthy?

[SouthSideRyan]

It's downright insane to say he will finish his career as one of the best ever after that kind of sample size. Especially if the crux of your argument is one game that you saw in person.

 

I don't understand why you have such a problem.

 

He's basically saying I think this guy is going to be amazing if he stays healthy. How can you have an issue with that statement?

 

There's amazing and there's "will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game"

 

Clemens, Maddux, and Pedro, those are guys that will be rememberred as some of the best pitchers in the history of the game. Are you really ready to throw a guy with 3 years professional experience in that group?

 

I'm not putting him in the group. I'm saying I don't see how you can have a problem with somebody else thinking he will one day be in that group if he doesn't get injured.

 

Would you have had a problem with somebody who watched a little bit of Clemens as a youngster and proclaimed he would be remembered as one of the greats if he stayed healthy?

 

Yes, because he too would've had 1 year of major league experience which isn't enough for me to start etching his HOF plaque, even with a health caveat.

[UBlink]

It's downright insane to say he will finish his career as one of the best ever after that kind of sample size. Especially if the crux of your argument is one game that you saw in person.

 

I don't understand why you have such a problem.

 

He's basically saying I think this guy is going to be amazing if he stays healthy. How can you have an issue with that statement?

 

There's amazing and there's "will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game"

 

Clemens, Maddux, and Pedro, those are guys that will be rememberred as some of the best pitchers in the history of the game. Are you really ready to throw a guy with 3 years professional experience in that group?

 

I'm not putting him in the group. I'm saying I don't see how you can have a problem with somebody else thinking he will one day be in that group if he doesn't get injured.

 

Would you have had a problem with somebody who watched a little bit of Clemens as a youngster and proclaimed he would be remembered as one of the greats if he stayed healthy?

 

Yes, because he too would've had 1 year of major league experience which isn't enough for me to start etching his HOF plaque, even with a health caveat.

 

But to me, the point is he might be right. And how cool would it be to be able to come back to the NSBB archive and see that you predicted 20 years ago that this Clemens guy is going to be pretty special. Now if we see someone predict that about 10 different guys every year it would lose some of its impact, but if someone wants to put their credibility on the line (and in the archives) I say go for it. There's enough people around to remind us of our errors.

[radarluv1]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

Colon's a good pitcher if healthy, but Felix is already on par with, if not better than Colon. That's scary, considering Felix is 19. As with all young pitchers, you worry about his health, but if he can avoid injury, he's going to dominate.

 

Something funny to note...on baseball-reference.com, Colon is listed at 6'0, 185 lbs. I don't know what scale they used to weigh him when that weight was registered, but I'd have it looked at.

 

an honest question, how does felix compare to a gooden or ankiel (or anybody that was in the bigs at that age) in minor league #'s?

 

Here's what I was able to put together:

 

FELIX

39 G (34 GS), 21-6, 2.72 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 263 K, 74 BB, 184 H, 218.1 IP

 

ANKIEL (before MLB debut)

21 G (21 GS), 9-6, 2.79 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 181 K, 38 BB, 91 H, 125.2 IP

 

GOODEN (before MLB debut)

38 G (38 GS), 24-9, 2.56 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 384 K, 140 BB, 185 H, 269.2 IP

 

thanks GB. that looks pretty similar to me. who are someother 19 y.o. starters not on the list?

[rjchapma]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

I'm just not a fan of a guy who doesn't actually play a full season over a just former Cy Young winner. No offense he probably could be a great pitcher when all said and done, but dont make statements that are that outrageous.

Edited March 2, 2006 by rjchapma

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

He's pretty filthy. I wouldn't pencil him in the HOF quite yet, but the odds look good barring injury. If he can dominate ML hitters at this age, what will he be capable of in his prime?

[rjchapma]

definitly I agree, but no HOF yet please!!!!!!

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

I'm just not a fan of a guy who doesn't actually play a full season over a just former Cy Young winner. No offense he probably could be a great pitcher when all said and done, but dont make statements that are that outrageous.

 

Colon won a lot of games and that's why he won the Cy Young. Wins is a team stat, not an individual pitching stat, so I'm not quite sure why you are so intent on claiming Hernandez isn't as good as Colon based on that one award.

 

If you want to break down the pitching stats of both players, cool, but I don't buy that Colon is better than Hernandez (or rather how good he will be in his ML career) based only on that award.

[SouthSideRyan]

He's pretty filthy. I wouldn't pencil him in the HOF quite yet, but the odds look good barring injury. If he can dominate ML hitters at this age, what will he be capable of in his prime?

 

Regression?

[srbin84]

Felix is as good as Prior was at the start of his career.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I'm not ready to say Felix Hernandez "will be remember as one of the greats", but that doesn't mean I am not impressed with Felix, cause I am. I mean, the hype around guys like Doc Gooden (THE most electrifying rookie pitcher, I EVER saw...), Rick Ankiel, Brien Taylor, Todd Van Poppell had the same kind of hype as Felix currently as. As a baseball fan, I hope Felix does become one of the greats, but NOT until he passes the 100 WIN mark in his career, would I even start including him in a debate.

[BigbadB]

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

You obviously haven't seen him pitch. Felix is a very dominant pitcher and he will be remembered as one of the best pitchers in the history of the game if he doesn't get derailed with injuries. Too bad he isn't going to play in the WBC. The Mariners held him out cause they don't want him to get injured. Also, the Cy Young award is overrated.

 

I'm just not a fan of a guy who doesn't actually play a full season over a just former Cy Young winner. No offense he probably could be a great pitcher when all said and done, but dont make statements that are that outrageous.

 

Colon won his award with a 3.48 ERA. In 2003, the Cubs had 3 starters with better ERA's. Prior (2.43), Wood (3.30), and Zambrano (3.11).

 

Colon's Cy Young really isn't all that special if you put him on a team like the 2005 Seattle Mariners. Brandon Webb of the Arizona Diamondbacks had a comparable ERA to Colon and had a 14-12 record last year. The previous year, he had a worse team behind him, put up a comparable ERA that year as well and ended up 7-16.

 

The Cy Young award gives the award to the pitcher who wins the most games, not the best pitcher. If they gave it to the best pitcher, Roger Clemens would have another one on his mantle from this past year.

 

While I'm not ready to roll out the carpet for Felix as an all time great, I'd take him over anyone not currently named Johan Santana right now.

[rjchapma]

It's as simple as this Colon was healthy and won games he should have. He's been a good pitcher for a long time. I dont care that some of the cubs players had a better ERA than Colon this year. They might of and might be better pitchers when all is said and done, but to say someone who is 19 years old and hasn't pitched in a major league season is a HALL OF FAMER is a little over the top. Don't get me wrong he is good and could be a very good pitcher in the major leagues, but before you guys say something that outlandish realize that that wasn't a full season and he could go nuts(Ankiel) or start doing crack(Gooden) remember they had similar starts in there careers.

[srbin84]

I remember when Prior was in his first couple years, everybody had him in the Hall of Fame if he stayed healthy. That should be the only hurdle for Felix as well. He is better than Colon.

[BigbadB]

It's as simple as this Colon was healthy and won games he should have. He's been a good pitcher for a long time. I dont care that some of the cubs players had a better ERA than Colon this year. They might of and might be better pitchers when all is said and done, but to say someone who is 19 years old and hasn't pitched in a major league season is a HALL OF FAMER is a little over the top. Don't get me wrong he is good and could be a very good pitcher in the major leagues, but before you guys say something that outlandish realize that that wasn't a full season and he could go nuts(Ankiel) or start doing crack(Gooden) remember they had similar starts in there careers.

 

I'm fine with your feelings on Felix. I'm just attempting to understand why Colon is more valuable to you because he has a Cy Young award that he really didn't earn.

 

Santana, 16-7 with a 2.87 ERA

Millwood, 9-11 with a 2.86 ERA

Clemens, 13-8 with a 1.87 ERA :shock:

Buerhle, 16-8 with a 3.12 ERA

 

Sure, Colon won 21 games, but he had to have plenty of run support from his teammates to win all those games. The guys listed above had very good seasons and suffered terrible run support, as their records indicate.

 

Colon is good and he has been pretty durable, but he does not rank among the elite pitchers in baseball, IMO. A Cy Young award doesn't change that. In fact, I wonder where he placed in the Cy Young voting in 2004, when he won 18 games with a 5.01 ERA.

[srbin84]

Kevin Tapani once went 19-9. That's enough evidence right there that wins have little to no value in evaluating pitchers.