Cubs May Use Four Man Rotation and Other Rumblings...

[UK1679666180]

Keep him at 100 or lower, and let him go on 5, 5, 5 and 4 days rest. It will be perfectly acceptable.

 

Dusty don't care about how many days rest if deciding to let a pitcher go 120 or not. He'll throw a pitcher out there for 120 if he's on 4 days or 6 days of rest

 

If you see him average under 100 pitches during his 1st 3 starts, I agree, that won't happen though.

 

Send him out there for 110-115 like last year during April and he'll need all the rest he can get for the 1st month...

 

120, 120, 120, 120, 120, 120 is more damaging than 120, 120, 90 (sim. start), 120, 120, if the pattern played out the way you suggest

Edited March 1, 2006 by UK

[UK1679666180]

5 days is already extra recovery time. 7 is overkill, pointless, and could easily lead to further abuse later, when it matters.

 

Furthermore, while rest may be valuable whenever you can get it, it is not of the same value whenever you can get it. Rest in June/July/August is much more valuable than 2 extra days in April.

 

7 gives them the option of a simulated start, enough work to keep him fresh and not enough work to get him fatigued.

 

I agree with rest being more important during the Summer. Which is why I'd skip a maximum of 2 starts throughout the year for each pitcher, with the pitcher throwing 60-75 pitches on the day of their scheduled start. They'll keep 12 pitchers up anyways.

[UK1679666180]

The limiting of the workload early is very small in comparison (as far as degree of importance) to how I want their workload to be reduced throughout the year.

 

Zambrano in the one start he threw 138 pitches, threw more pitches over the 120 pitch mark in that one start than Oakland's staff did the entire season

Edited March 1, 2006 by UK

[BigbadB]

Nothing angers me more than seeing a stud starter going more than 100 pitches in a blow out game.

 

Zambrano was winning a game 9-0 at the end of the 5th in San Diego in 2003 that Tim and I attended together. They brought out Zambrano for the 6th and he struggled the entire inning. He left after the 6th, but accumulated 119 pitches by the time they pulled him. This, just after back to back 118 pitch outings in July. The next game was a complete game with 126 pitches. The bullpen was not taxed at the time, so why on Earth do you bring your stud starter out for the 6th inning in a 9-0 blow out game when his pitch count is already up there?

 

He earned the win after 5. Give him the early shower and save the completely unnecessary extra wear and tear on his arm.

[UK1679666180]

BBB- From the '04 season (Zambrano)

 

April 15-117 pitches in a 10-5 win (9-1 when he left the game)

April 20-111 pitches in a 9-1 win

May 13-114 pitches in a 7-3 win (6-1 when he was pulled)

May 30-110 pitches in a 12-1 win

June 5th-113 pitches in a 6-1 win

June 10th-121 pitches (12-3 win)

June 26th-128 pitches thru 6 in a 6-3 loss

July 2nd-124 pitches thru 6.1 (6-2 win)

July 29th-120 pitches in a 4-0 win

Aug. 11th-124 pitches in a 5-1 win

Aug. 23rd-115 pitches thru 6.2 in a 8-3 win

Sept. 6th-119 pitches in a 9-1 win

Sept. 17th-112 pitches in a 12-4 win

Sept. 27th-124 pitches thru 6.1IP in a 12-5 win

[BigbadB]

Exactly my point. It really makes me angry. It makes me even angrier when you consider Dusty likes to go with extra bullpen arms. Bullpen arms need to be used to stay sharp. With the extra arms in the pen, it's hard to find regular work to keep them all sharp. Then, you leave a starter in longer than he needs to be for no apparent reason. It just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

[UK1679666180]

For me, if the game is over by the 85-90 pitch mark, you start looking to take him out.

 

Regardless of what the score is, once a pitcher gets to around 110-120, you start looking at who's avail. and if the pitcher has anything left.

 

Around 125, you look to get him out of there and make sure the reliever is ready. No pitcher should see 130 pitches even if he is not showing serious signs of fatigue.

 

If the pitcher has had a pair of 25-30 pitch innings early, he shouldn't see 75 pitches or if he's past that point, the manager should get the bullpen up to replace him.

 

Of course, fatigue and the changes in mechanics can happen after 75 pitches or 115 pitches, which is where the importance of the visual observations of the pitching coach beomces key.

[UK1679666180]

It makes me even angrier when you consider Dusty likes to go with extra bullpen arms. Bullpen arms need to be used to stay sharp. With the extra arms in the pen, it's hard to find regular work to keep them all sharp

 

(Although not happening) If I ever had the chance to operate a staff and roster decisions like 11 or 12 pitchers, since I am overly cautious about pitcher's usage, I would have 12 pitchers as well.

 

You're definitely right, overworking a rotation with extra arms doesn't makes sense.

[rawaction]

BBB- From the '04 season (Zambrano)

 

April 15-117 pitches in a 10-5 win (9-1 when he left the game)

April 20-111 pitches in a 9-1 win

May 13-114 pitches in a 7-3 win (6-1 when he was pulled)

May 30-110 pitches in a 12-1 win

June 5th-113 pitches in a 6-1 win

June 10th-121 pitches (12-3 win)

June 26th-128 pitches thru 6 in a 6-3 loss

July 2nd-124 pitches thru 6.1 (6-2 win)

July 29th-120 pitches in a 4-0 win

Aug. 11th-124 pitches in a 5-1 win

Aug. 23rd-115 pitches thru 6.2 in a 8-3 win

Sept. 6th-119 pitches in a 9-1 win

Sept. 17th-112 pitches in a 12-4 win

Sept. 27th-124 pitches thru 6.1IP in a 12-5 win

 

Hard to believe the Cubs won that many games big.

[Illini Iceman]

If you're looking for proof on why I want them to limit the starter's workload early on. Zambrano on opening day threw 106 pitches in 5.2 innings in a 16-6 win.

 

That's opening day in a blow-out!

 

That's too many pitches in too short of a timeframe at any point of the season. Now, factor that's it was opening day and the game was over, the careless nature of how the Cubs have handled Zambrano impacts how I think they should trate him early on.

 

Zambrano avg'd 110 pitches in his 5 starts in April.

 

1 start of Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, & Rusch for Williams isn't worth potentially overworking Zambrano, Prior, Rusch, & Maddux early.

 

Actually it was in 4.2 innings and the reason his pitch count got so high is that Dusty was trying to let him get through 5 so he would qualify for the win.

Whether Dusty should have been that concerned about having Z qualify for the win is arguable but it gives a little more perspective than just saying he pitched 5.2 as part of an opening day blow-out. I think when Dusty finally pulled him in the 5th the D-Backs had actually made it interesting and the Cubs then pulled away again later in the game.

[Fred Hornkohl]

If you're looking for proof on why I want them to limit the starter's workload early on. Zambrano on opening day threw 106 pitches in 5.2 innings in a 16-6 win.

 

That's opening day in a blow-out!

 

That's too many pitches in too short of a timeframe at any point of the season. Now, factor that's it was opening day and the game was over, the careless nature of how the Cubs have handled Zambrano impacts how I think they should trate him early on.

 

Zambrano avg'd 110 pitches in his 5 starts in April.

 

1 start of Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, & Rusch for Williams isn't worth potentially overworking Zambrano, Prior, Rusch, & Maddux early.

 

Actually it was in 4.2 innings and the reason his pitch count got so high is that Dusty was trying to let him get through 5 so he would qualify for the win.

Whether Dusty should have been that concerned about having Z qualify for the win is arguable but it gives a little more perspective than just saying he pitched 5.2 as part of an opening day blow-out. I think when Dusty finally pulled him in the 5th the D-Backs had actually made it interesting and the Cubs then pulled away again later in the game.

 

The score was 9-3 CUBS when Zambrano was pulled in the 5th inning.

[Illini Iceman]

If you're looking for proof on why I want them to limit the starter's workload early on. Zambrano on opening day threw 106 pitches in 5.2 innings in a 16-6 win.

 

That's opening day in a blow-out!

 

That's too many pitches in too short of a timeframe at any point of the season. Now, factor that's it was opening day and the game was over, the careless nature of how the Cubs have handled Zambrano impacts how I think they should trate him early on.

 

Zambrano avg'd 110 pitches in his 5 starts in April.

 

1 start of Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, & Rusch for Williams isn't worth potentially overworking Zambrano, Prior, Rusch, & Maddux early.

 

Actually it was in 4.2 innings and the reason his pitch count got so high is that Dusty was trying to let him get through 5 so he would qualify for the win.

Whether Dusty should have been that concerned about having Z qualify for the win is arguable but it gives a little more perspective than just saying he pitched 5.2 as part of an opening day blow-out. I think when Dusty finally pulled him in the 5th the D-Backs had actually made it interesting and the Cubs then pulled away again later in the game.

 

The score was 9-3 CUBS when Zambrano was pulled in the 5th inning.

 

I thought it was closer than that since I remember getting a little nervous, but then again I am a Cubs fan so no lead is safe. :lol:

[CaliforniaRaisin]

If you're looking for proof on why I want them to limit the starter's workload early on. Zambrano on opening day threw 106 pitches in 5.2 innings in a 16-6 win.

 

That's opening day in a blow-out!

 

That's too many pitches in too short of a timeframe at any point of the season. Now, factor that's it was opening day and the game was over, the careless nature of how the Cubs have handled Zambrano impacts how I think they should trate him early on.

 

Zambrano avg'd 110 pitches in his 5 starts in April.

 

1 start of Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, & Rusch for Williams isn't worth potentially overworking Zambrano, Prior, Rusch, & Maddux early.

 

Actually it was in 4.2 innings and the reason his pitch count got so high is that Dusty was trying to let him get through 5 so he would qualify for the win.

Whether Dusty should have been that concerned about having Z qualify for the win is arguable but it gives a little more perspective than just saying he pitched 5.2 as part of an opening day blow-out. I think when Dusty finally pulled him in the 5th the D-Backs had actually made it interesting and the Cubs then pulled away again later in the game.

 

The score was 9-3 CUBS when Zambrano was pulled in the 5th inning.

 

I believe there were a few guys on base though.

 

And, of course, Zambrano told the ump he needed some glasses.

[UK1679666180]

Actually it was in 4.2 innings and the reason his pitch count got so high is that Dusty was trying to let him get through 5 so he would qualify for the win.

Whether Dusty should have been that concerned about having Z qualify for the win is arguable but it gives a little more perspective than just saying he pitched 5.2 as part of an opening day blow-out. I think when Dusty finally pulled him in the 5th the D-Backs had actually made it interesting and the Cubs then pulled away again later in the game.

 

My memory fades after a year, it's just as careless 106 pitches under 5IP is dumb anytime of the year, opening day in a blow-out makes it that much worse.

 

It was dumb of Baker to do so and continues the trend of him being careless with pitchers like Z, Wood, Prior.

 

There's nothing to argue about leaving a pitchers of Z's talent (or anyone's talent) for 106+ pitches, under 5IP, in a rout.

 

No pitcher likes to be pulled, it's Baker's job to what is best for the team. Getting Z out of there earlier was best for the team.

 

Nothing negative came from it as Z pitched another healthy and productive season, but stupid in principle.

 

There were comments made about Wood being the one who wanted to delay the surgery and help the team out of the team. Noble cause by Kerry, but a dumb decision by the Cubs to allow him to stay in the pen for an extra month.

[srbin84]

Actually it was in 4.2 innings and the reason his pitch count got so high is that Dusty was trying to let him get through 5 so he would qualify for the win.

Whether Dusty should have been that concerned about having Z qualify for the win is arguable but it gives a little more perspective than just saying he pitched 5.2 as part of an opening day blow-out. I think when Dusty finally pulled him in the 5th the D-Backs had actually made it interesting and the Cubs then pulled away again later in the game.

 

My memory fades after a year, it's just as careless 106 pitches under 5IP is dumb anytime of the year, opening day in a blow-out makes it that much worse.

 

It was dumb of Baker to do so and continues the trend of him being careless with pitchers like Z, Wood, Prior.

 

There's nothing to argue about leaving a pitchers of Z's talent (or anyone's talent) for 106+ pitches, under 5IP, in a rout.

 

No pitcher likes to be pulled, it's Baker's job to what is best for the team. Getting Z out of there earlier was best for the team.

 

Nothing negative came from it as Z pitched another healthy and productive season, but stupid in principle.

 

There were comments made about Wood being the one who wanted to delay the surgery and help the team out of the team. Noble cause by Kerry, but a dumb decision by the Cubs to allow him to stay in the pen for an extra month.

 

The Cubs probably saw it as an opportunity for Kerry Wood to establish himself as the leader of the club through his noble team first actions. What a load of crap.