Gary Hughes Possible Candidate for Reds GM

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Tigger, when i hear you discribe guys like Hughes in such narrow terms and hear your evaluations of guys like perez only consider obp. When i hear people take a man like baker and live off a throwaway quote like "walks clog the bases " It does not take a MIT grad to connect the dots on thought process. Like most people you try to fit certain stats in a context to fit your chosen hypothesis . No problem , i dont take it personally. I just dont buy what your cookin. Hint if your going to argue that someone is pegging a certain way. Evaluate Baker the same way. Im not here to tell you how to act or think. But i do feel free to call Shaningens when i think i see them. God Bless Coach L.

 

This quote is so full of sanctimonious bullcrap, I don't even know where to begin.

 

It may not be addressed to me, but I'm tackling it.

 

Those of us who don't consider Perez a greta talent do more than look at his OBP. The Perez thread was full of such examples, but those who disagree prefer to overlook them because then they wouldn't have this crap to throw around.

 

Secondly, our evaluations of Baker are based on a lot more than his "walks clog the bases," comment. There are numerous reasons many of us would like him gone, and that comment is more anecdotal to those reasons than the reason itself. But trying to sum our case up with that surely makes you look intelligent. (Not that some paragraphs or correct grammar couldn't help there as well.)

 

Finally, it's quite insulting that you suppose (or accuse) that TT or anyone is just looking for metrics to support our supposed way of thinking. That's slanderous at worst and presumtuous at best. It could be that we have honestly approached the metrics giving our philospohies, experience, and predispositions and logically come to our conlcusions. Since none of that equals what you think, you attempt to accuse of us of faulty methods or integrity in regards to research. That's ridiculous.

 

 

Love from Baal, Vance

[CubDad4Ever]

Vance it could be , but i dont think its the case. The ferocity of your remarks shows two things. Your not confindent in your facts and you buy your own bs. Nice try on the spelling and grammar. My handwritting is also sloppy. But the boys in my family are student athletes with degrees from stanford , cal ,and Occidental College . Being around intelligent student athletes taught me one thing. Great people dont cry and proclaim things , they are confident in themselves and also realize the sun does not rise or set on their behind. You right some cool stuff sometimes . sometimes your stuck in a rutt. To deny that would make you less than human. Im probably ten times worse than you. But i can laugh at myself easlily. Use your talent more proficiently. God Bless and keep writing . Coach l

[sethuel1]

Vance it could be , but i dont think its the case. The ferocity of your remarks shows two things. Your not confindent in your facts and you buy your own bs. Nice try on the spelling and grammar. My handwritting is also sloppy. But the boys in my family are student athletes with degrees from stanford , cal ,and Occidental College . Being around intelligent student athletes taught me one thing. Great people dont cry and proclaim things , they are confident in themselves and also realize the sun does not rise or set on their behind. You right some cool stuff sometimes . sometimes your stuck in a rutt. To deny that would make you less than human. Im probably ten times worse than you. But i can laugh at myself easlily. Use your talent more proficiently. God Bless and keep writing . Coach l

 

Because if you have an idea you're confident in, you keep it to yourself. Right, guys? Right?

 

Meh, I give up.

[USSoccer]

Vance it could be , but i dont think its the case. The ferocity of your remarks shows two things. Your not confindent in your facts and you buy your own bs. Nice try on the spelling and grammar. My handwritting is also sloppy. But the boys in my family are student athletes with degrees from stanford , cal ,and Occidental College . Being around intelligent student athletes taught me one thing. Great people dont cry and proclaim things , they are confident in themselves and also realize the sun does not rise or set on their behind. You right some cool stuff sometimes . sometimes your stuck in a rutt. To deny that would make you less than human. Im probably ten times worse than you. But i can laugh at myself easlily. Use your talent more proficiently. God Bless and keep writing . Coach l

 

You're kidding me. In another thread you made the same comment about people hanging onto OBP only. I refuted it with specific examples from discussions we've had on this board to the contrary, and you're once again glossing over it.

 

Until you start to actually read what people say, and stop reading into it, then you're never going to get it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Vance it could be , but i dont think its the case. The ferocity of your remarks shows two things. Your not confindent in your facts and you buy your own bs. Nice try on the spelling and grammar. My handwritting is also sloppy. But the boys in my family are student athletes with degrees from stanford , cal ,and Occidental College . Being around intelligent student athletes taught me one thing. Great people dont cry and proclaim things , they are confident in themselves and also realize the sun does not rise or set on their behind. You right some cool stuff sometimes . sometimes your stuck in a rutt. To deny that would make you less than human. Im probably ten times worse than you. But i can laugh at myself easlily. Use your talent more proficiently. God Bless and keep writing . Coach l

 

Once again you make assumptions that have no basis in fact. You make an assumption about by confidence, which is not supported by anything than your own deluded ideas.

 

I'm glad you think I write cool stuff sometimes. I don't know what you mean by being stuck in a rut. I think you're now reaching to make a point. You don't have a lot to support your statements, so now you're attempting to belittle those who disagree with you by claiming we cherry pick our stats, are one dimensional, don't have confidence, or are not "great" people.

 

Can I assume since you've come here to "cry" that we aren't looking at the big picture as you call it, that you fall short of "greatness" as well?

 

BTW, I laugh at myself all the time. I often encourage others to laugh with me. To make such a comment further shows you know nothing about me. Why don't you stick to the facts of our arguments rather than trying to expose our personalities or motives in making the arguments.

 

By the way, how would you prefer I use my talent? Maybe I should use it to show 8th graders how to pass a state writing test. Oh, I already do that.

 

If you've been around athletics as much as you claim, you should know what happens when you assume.

 

As it is, you've made a lot of assumptions lately with little facts to back any of them up.

 

Worship Vishnu, Vance

[CubDad4Ever]

I have as much or more to support myself as you will ever have. Paul Depodesta , got canned because he tied himself so closely to only statistical analysis that he lacked the ability to effectively be a mangement person. People who cannot communicate on all levels are poor management people. You support the same tired smack all the time . Dusty dumb-stolen bases bad. ( by the way the latest number for success rate is 66 not 75 because Depo was found to be blowing smoke on his 3-1 ratio OBP value over Slug. Its more like 1.6-1.8/ Therefore 66 percent. I bring that up because pinheads read one book (maybe not you vance) and quote a stat like 75 % .They then start devaluing the 4-5 extra runs a Juan creates and call him slappy. Sloppy research , calling things absolutes numbers wise and then sterotyping is exactly what goes on this board. I will go fact for fact with you and love it . Talk about condeseding attitudes. I know i struck a chord , by the tone of your response. This board needed some non boot licking people. Throwing a couple of stats out there and then acting pious does not impress me in the least. Just because i disagree does not make me mad at you , so quit throwing terms out like slanderous . Talk about buying your own BS.

God Bless and have at it

[USSoccer]

I have as much or more to support myself as you will ever have. Paul Depodesta , got canned because he tied himself so closely to only statistical analysis that he lacked the ability to effectively be a mangement person. People who cannot communicate on all levels are poor management people. You support the same tired smack all the time . Dusty dumb-stolen bases bad. ( by the way the latest number for success rate is 66 not 75 because Depo was found to be blowing smoke on his 3-1 ratio OBP value over Slug. Its more like 1.6-1.8/ Therefore 66 percent. I bring that up because pinheads read one book (maybe not you vance) and quote a stat like 75 % .They then start devaluing the 4-5 extra runs a Juan creates and call him slappy. Sloppy research , calling things absolutes numbers wise and then sterotyping is exactly what goes on this board. I will go fact for fact with you and love it . Talk about condeseding attitudes. I know i struck a chord , by the tone of your response. This board needed some non boot licking people. Throwing a couple of stats out there and then acting pious does not impress me in the least. Just because i disagree does not make me mad at you , so quit throwing terms out like slanderous . Talk about buying your own BS.

God Bless and have at it

 

If you can go fact for fact, do it. Present one single statistical retort to any of the common discussions we have. Back up your argument with facts, and I'll listen. That goes a lot further here than just disagreeing, calling the board consensus "groupthink" and "boot-licking" and not backing it up with anything but rhetoric about how we "support the same tired smack all the time". There's only one side of the discussion here not backing up their assertions...

[Ram1380]

I have as much or more to support myself as you will ever have. Paul Depodesta , got canned because he tied himself so closely to only statistical analysis that he lacked the ability to effectively be a mangement person. People who cannot communicate on all levels are poor management people. You support the same tired smack all the time . Dusty dumb-stolen bases bad. ( by the way the latest number for success rate is 66 not 75 because Depo was found to be blowing smoke on his 3-1 ratio OBP value over Slug. Its more like 1.6-1.8/ Therefore 66 percent. I bring that up because pinheads read one book (maybe not you vance) and quote a stat like 75 % .They then start devaluing the 4-5 extra runs a Juan creates and call him slappy. Sloppy research , calling things absolutes numbers wise and then sterotyping is exactly what goes on this board. I will go fact for fact with you and love it . Talk about condeseding attitudes. I know i struck a chord , by the tone of your response. This board needed some non boot licking people. Throwing a couple of stats out there and then acting pious does not impress me in the least. Just because i disagree does not make me mad at you , so quit throwing terms out like slanderous . Talk about buying your own BS.

God Bless and have at it

 

 

 

Where would you like to Start on why people can't stand the self-serving jack-ass in the dugout?

 

 

I believe someone soaks those toothpicks of his in Thorazine.

 

 

I'm sure Vance will be here as well, I got all day if you want to open up that Pandora's box.

[CubDad4Ever]

I believe i just did relating to aspects of stolen base success rate. Just one example of what im talking about. You guys have know idea how biggoted you sometimes come across as. Ive gotten several private messages staking how many people agree. Thats not why i am here. I actually started in your corner of thought . Overly emotional (self serving jack ass ?) at every comment Dusty or Hendry made. The proof lies in the pudding > If this team does not get where it needs to Dusty will be canned . Thats professional athletics my friend. Pandoras Box , Please. You guys talk game about stats , until your called on a point like the SB ratio or limited sample size, durability as a metric. Then you respond emotionally. Dont gang up on me please , i might cry. God Bless Coach L

[rocket]

So where did you read this 66% stolen base ratio? Please back up that fact.

 

And don't get all peeved if someone says "slanderous", then right after that call someone bigoted because they disagree with you.

 

And of course, after calling them bigoted, please don't accuse them of getting over emotional.

[Magnetic Curses]

I have as much or more to support myself as you will ever have. Paul Depodesta , got canned because he tied himself so closely to only statistical analysis that he lacked the ability to effectively be a mangement person. People who cannot communicate on all levels are poor management people. You support the same tired smack all the time . Dusty dumb-stolen bases bad. ( by the way the latest number for success rate is 66 not 75 because Depo was found to be blowing smoke on his 3-1 ratio OBP value over Slug. Its more like 1.6-1.8/ Therefore 66 percent. I bring that up because pinheads read one book (maybe not you vance) and quote a stat like 75 % .They then start devaluing the 4-5 extra runs a Juan creates and call him slappy. Sloppy research , calling things absolutes numbers wise and then sterotyping is exactly what goes on this board. I will go fact for fact with you and love it . Talk about condeseding attitudes. I know i struck a chord , by the tone of your response. This board needed some non boot licking people. Throwing a couple of stats out there and then acting pious does not impress me in the least. Just because i disagree does not make me mad at you , so quit throwing terms out like slanderous . Talk about buying your own BS.

God Bless and have at it

 

1. please break up your post. this one gigantic paragraph rant is hard on the eyes and made me not want to read it.

 

2. how quickly we show our true colors, eh? God Bless, indeed.

 

3. juan pierre kills more runs than he creates. the problem with your thinking is that it doesn't account for failure in method. juan pierre fails a lot, more than an effective run-creator anyway.

 

4. Paul Depodesta got two years in LA, making the playoffs once. However, your average "flat-earth theorist" (as i will know the casual fan from now on) will often bring up Hendry's first full year at GM when defending him. what a joke.

 

5. just because you disagree does not make you mad at anyone, however, accusing people of buying their own BS will not endear you to anyone, either. your post is full of venom and vitriol, go read the Bible.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I have as much or more to support myself as you will ever have.

 

Care to share? Especially regarding your assumptions about other posters.

 

Paul Depodesta , got canned because he tied himself so closely to only statistical analysis that he lacked the ability to effectively be a mangement person. People who cannot communicate on all levels are poor management people.

 

I'm gald you're so in tune to the inner workings of what's going on in Frank McCourt's mind. Depodesta got fired becuase he failed to get the Dodgers in the playoffs and over the years, Tommy Lasorda has received McCourt's ear. Depo was never a favorite of the "old-school" Lasorda, and after it was percieved Depo snubbed Hershiser, whom he didn't want to hire, Lasorda convinced McCourt that Depodesta was the problem.

 

You support the same tired smack all the time . Dusty dumb-stolen bases bad. ( by the way the latest number for success rate is 66 not 75 because Depo was found to be blowing smoke on his 3-1 ratio OBP value over Slug. Its more like 1.6-1.8/ Therefore 66 percent.

 

Please look through my posts and find when I even mention SB%. I have, but it's probably less than 1% of my posts. I've always held to the 70% effiency rate which is as close you the 66 you state as the 75% you're accusing me of.

 

And I've been pretty clear on my dislike for Dusty. In fact, if you'd read my posts from last summer, I even stated that I was in favor of the Baker hire, and continually wanted to believe that he was in fact a manager I could support. But the evidence continued to mount that Dusty was not someone that I believe is a good manager. I'm too tired of this argument to go into all those reasons, but it's a whole lot more than "walks clog the bases..."

 

I bring that up because pinheads read one book (maybe not you vance) and quote a stat like 75 % .They then start devaluing the 4-5 extra runs a Juan creates and call him slappy. Sloppy research , calling things absolutes numbers wise and then sterotyping is exactly what goes on this board.

 

Once again you attempt to make a baseless claim and paint this board and its posters with a broad brush. The fact that we've had these discussions numerous times is proof enough that we don't all agree. And even withing groups that seem more likely to agree than not, we have some disagreements over some of the finer nuances. For example, I was in favor of Kenny Lofton at the beginning of the offseason while TT, using evidence supported by BABIP, was not. While we were both inclined to use stats, we had differing interpretations of the data and valued various data differently.

 

I will go fact for fact with you and love it . Talk about condeseding attitudes. I know i struck a chord , by the tone of your response. This board needed some non boot licking people. Throwing a couple of stats out there and then acting pious does not impress me in the least.

 

Being different without much evidence other than my kids play ball and I coach doesn't impress me either. No one is licking anyone's boots, unless you're referring to your liking of Neifi and Dusty's. Not having any stats to support your claim doesn't impress much either. Neither does knowing where your children attended school.

 

Just because i disagree does not make me mad at you , so quit throwing terms out like slanderous . Talk about buying your own BS.

 

No one said you were angry. If you'd develop some reading comprehension, you'd see my term "slanderous" referred to how you characterized our lack of integrity of using our numbers, not the fact you disagreed with us.

 

Let me share an analogy. As a teacher, I evaluate students daily. Someone may disagree with my philosophy regarding evaluation or even the metrics I use to assign grades. Doing that is criticism. But if you claim I choose my metrics in order to assign certain grades to students I like and others to those I don't, then that challenges my integrity and is slanderous. That's what you did in the post in which I used that word.

 

I think someone is full of BS, and it isn't me.

 

God Bless and have at it

 

Allah rocks, Vance

[USSoccer]

I believe i just did relating to aspects of stolen base success rate. Just one example of what im talking about. You guys have know idea how biggoted you sometimes come across as. Ive gotten several private messages staking how many people agree. Thats not why i am here. I actually started in your corner of thought . Overly emotional (self serving jack ass ?) at every comment Dusty or Hendry made. The proof lies in the pudding > If this team does not get where it needs to Dusty will be canned . Thats professional athletics my friend. Pandoras Box , Please. You guys talk game about stats , until your called on a point like the SB ratio or limited sample size, durability as a metric. Then you respond emotionally. Dont gang up on me please , i might cry. God Bless Coach L

 

-Being bigoted is a lot worse than what's happening here. Keep some perspective.

 

-Even if the break even point is 66% (and I've never seen that anywhere), Pierre's 77% last season isn't that much better. Also, pointing out Pierre is more of a slap/bunt hitter that may be hurt by Wrigley's grass is a pretty reasonable concern, as is Pierre's dependence on BABIP. He never walks, so he needs to hit for a high average to be useful.

 

I'm getting the feeling that this is about to take on the usefulness of debating Kery Wood's value with CubbieRich. :P

Edited January 26, 2006 by USSoccer

[Ram1380]

I believe i just did relating to aspects of stolen base success rate. Just one example of what im talking about. You guys have know idea how biggoted you sometimes come across as. Ive gotten several private messages staking how many people agree. Thats not why i am here. I actually started in your corner of thought . Overly emotional (self serving jack ass ?) at every comment Dusty or Hendry made. The proof lies in the pudding > If this team does not get where it needs to Dusty will be canned . Thats professional athletics my friend. Pandoras Box , Please. You guys talk game about stats , until your called on a point like the SB ratio or limited sample size, durability as a metric. Then you respond emotionally. Dont gang up on me please , i might cry. God Bless Coach L

 

 

 

Yes, when you have a history of KNOWINGLY and Consistently playing veteran garbage like Lenny Harris, Eric Karros(against righthanders),Todd Hollandsworth, Neifi Perez, Shawn Estes etc...Over younger better options, to keep his "good ole boy" reputation amongst the leagues "veterans" intact(Boy the free agents are lining up to play for the Cubs). Which was not only to the detriment of the teams at the time, but to the long term betterment of the franchise as well, Then Yes you are by defintion self-serving.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Ram1380

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I believe i just did relating to aspects of stolen base success rate. Just one example of what im talking about. You guys have know idea how biggoted you sometimes come across as. Ive gotten several private messages staking how many people agree. Thats not why i am here. I actually started in your corner of thought . Overly emotional (self serving jack ass ?) at every comment Dusty or Hendry made. The proof lies in the pudding > If this team does not get where it needs to Dusty will be canned . Thats professional athletics my friend. Pandoras Box , Please. You guys talk game about stats , until your called on a point like the SB ratio or limited sample size, durability as a metric. Then you respond emotionally. Dont gang up on me please , i might cry. God Bless Coach L

 

Thanks for the idea of 66%. You have a link to the study on that or a source? Not that we don't believe you, but I'd like to see the data.

 

I'm glad you're getting lots of PM's. I've gotten plenty too. If these people like your ideas so much, maybe they should join the discussion. We don't bite.

 

Love Mother Earth, Vance

[noisesquared]

What a thread :( What happened to attack the post, not the poster? I enjoy reading a good debate about anything baseball related, but let's leave the personal stuff at the door.

 

The season is not going to get here fast enough - there's a lot of edgy NSBB'ers around here lately, and with the way the offseason has went, it's probably not going to change until pitchers and catchers report. And it may get worse then :lol:

[rocket]

What a thread :( What happened to attack the post, not the poster? I enjoy reading a good debate about anything baseball related, but let's leave the personal stuff at the door.

 

The season is not going to get here fast enough - there's a lot of edgy NSBB'ers around here lately, and with the way the offseason has went, it's probably not going to change until pitchers and catchers report. And it may get worse then :lol:

 

Haha, if you think this is bad, wait until the Cubs lose 5 games in a row.

[USSoccer]

What a thread :( What happened to attack the post, not the poster? I enjoy reading a good debate about anything baseball related, but let's leave the personal stuff at the door.

 

The season is not going to get here fast enough - there's a lot of edgy NSBB'ers around here lately, and with the way the offseason has went, it's probably not going to change until pitchers and catchers report. And it may get worse then :lol:

 

Haha, if you think this is bad, wait until the Cubs lose 5 games in a row.

 

Or when Neifi starts 3 games in a row, and no one is hurt...

[RynoRules]

What a thread :( What happened to attack the post, not the poster? I enjoy reading a good debate about anything baseball related, but let's leave the personal stuff at the door.

 

The season is not going to get here fast enough - there's a lot of edgy NSBB'ers around here lately, and with the way the offseason has went, it's probably not going to change until pitchers and catchers report. And it may get worse then :lol:

 

Haha, if you think this is bad, wait until the Cubs lose 5 games in a row.

 

I don't think it will ever be worse then when neifi got his 2 yrs and 5 mill. Pure venom. This place was toxic.

 

Edit: and the guy above me had it right. Lets all take step back and deep breath.

[Ram1380]

What a thread :( What happened to attack the post, not the poster? I enjoy reading a good debate about anything baseball related, but let's leave the personal stuff at the door.

 

The season is not going to get here fast enough - there's a lot of edgy NSBB'ers around here lately, and with the way the offseason has went, it's probably not going to change until pitchers and catchers report. And it may get worse then :lol:

 

Haha, if you think this is bad, wait until the Cubs lose 5 games in a row.

 

Or when Neifi starts 3 games in a row, and no one is hurt...

 

 

 

Over/Under on which day in April that occurs??

 

 

:twisted:

[Fred Hornkohl]

As near as I can figure out, there was only 1 instance last season when Neifi Perez started 3 consecutive games when nobody was hurt. That was an 8 game stretch from 20 Aug (15 days after Nomar came back) until 24 Aug (when Ramirez went down). This occured during one of Perez's hot streaks, when he put up this line......

 

Perez              AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
08/16 - 08/24      31    2   10    2    0    1   15    4    2    3  0.323  0.364  0.484  0.848

[imb]

As near as I can figure out, there was only 1 instance last season when Neifi Perez started 3 consecutive games when nobody was hurt. That was an 8 game stretch from 20 Aug (15 days after Nomar came back) until 24 Aug (when Ramirez went down). This occured during one of Perez's hot streaks, when he put up this line......

 

Perez              AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
08/16 - 08/24      31    2   10    2    0    1   15    4    2    3  0.323  0.364  0.484  0.848

 

Was that during the St Louis Grand Slam series?

[1908]

This thread has certainly turned ugly. Everyone take a deep breath, please.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Was that during the St Louis Grand Slam series?

 

No. The grand slam game was Sun 24 July 05.

[imb]

Was that during the St Louis Grand Slam series?

 

No. The grand slam game was Sun 24 July 05.

 

Wow, for some reason I always thought that homer came much later in the season.