Red Sox Reach Deal For Coco Crisp

[CuseCubFan69]

I understand a fair amount of the criticism of Juan Pierre, but to say he's below average defensively is really not true. He's an average fielder. Just because he doesn't have a rocket for an arm - doesn't mean he's bad. 75% of centerfielders can't throw hard either. They can't all gun it like Vlad. I've been a little pessimistic of Pierre so far, but I'm willing to give him a chance. A lot of people around here seem to be writing him off before the season even starts.

 

No, statistically and visually he's below average. His rate has consistently been below average, about the same as Todd Walker's maligned defense. He has good speed, but takes bad routes to balls, and has no arm to speak of.

 

So maybe if we pitched in a got him a GPS, would that help?

 

I think this is an interesting trade. I like what the Indians have done with these two moves. It makes me feel good that Hendry lacks any type of vision to be able to make moves like this.....really....honest.

[jmajew]

Courtesy of ESPN.com:

The Boston Herald, citing unnamed baseball sources, reported that the Red Sox and Indians had agreed in principle on a deal that would send Crisp to Boston along with a swap of prospects.

 

 

Depending on what prospects the Indians give up I think this is a very good trade for the Red Sox. IMO, Crisp is basically on teh same par as Damon. Last two seasons stats for Damon AVG/OBP/SLG 304/380/477 and 316/366/439. Crisp 297/344/446 and 300/345/465. Offesnively Crisp is a bit below Damon but defensively I'm pretty sure he is an upgrade. He also costs 11 million dollars less than Damon. Frankly I like what the Red Sox have been doing this offseason. They upgraded their defense substantially at third, first and center, and they added to their pitching staff. A lineup of Crisp, Loretta, Ortiz, Manny, Varitek, Lowell, Nixon, Snow/Youklis, AGonII is very formidable. Don't forget their rotation as of now is Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement, Arroyo, Wakefield, Papelbon.

 

If anyone is going to say that the Red Sox gave up too much, I think they must be conceding the division to the Yankees. In my mind whenever a team has a chance to win the World Series, like I think the Red Sox due, it is the organizations duty to do whatever they have to do without trading away its entire future. In all reality this Crisp deal is basically Renteria and Mota for Crisp and prospects. Definitely not a bad deal in my mind.

[CuseCubFan69]

Courtesy of ESPN.com:

The Boston Herald, citing unnamed baseball sources, reported that the Red Sox and Indians had agreed in principle on a deal that would send Crisp to Boston along with a swap of prospects.

 

 

Depending on what prospects the Indians give up I think this is a very good trade for the Red Sox. IMO, Crisp is basically on teh same par as Damon. Last two seasons stats for Damon AVG/OBP/SLG 304/380/477 and 316/366/439. Crisp 297/344/446 and 300/345/465. Offesnively Crisp is a bit below Damon but defensively I'm pretty sure he is an upgrade. He also costs 11 million dollars less than Damon. Frankly I like what the Red Sox have been doing this offseason. They upgraded their defense substantially at third, first and center, and they added to their pitching staff. A lineup of Crisp, Loretta, Ortiz, Manny, Varitek, Lowell, Nixon, Snow/Youklis, AGonII is very formidable. Don't forget their rotation as of now is Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement, Arroyo, Wakefield, Papelbon.

 

If anyone is going to say that the Red Sox gave up too much, I think they must be conceding the division to the Yankees. In my mind whenever a team has a chance to win the World Series, like I think the Red Sox due, it is the organizations duty to do whatever they have to do without trading away its entire future. In all reality this Crisp deal is basically Renteria and Mota for Crisp and prospects. Definitely not a bad deal in my mind.

 

I thought the Red Sox were trying the trade the whinning beer drinking lazy pig Wells?

[Mizzou]

Crisp is a damn good player. The Sox essentially traded Renteria and his salary for Crisp and his salary. I'd call that a pretty good deal.

 

Concerning Pierre... his "bad routes" to the ball wont be near as much of an issue as people make it out to be. Especially considering that he'll be playing in Wrigley rather than a football stadium this year.

[bmkhawk]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

Oh, i think I have quite an argument in Pierre's favor that centers on speed on the basepaths as well. A little number that is in Pierre's favor by a landslide, yet hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread. Any objective discussion comparing the two players should obviously contain talk of stolen bases. Especially when we are talking lead off hitters here.

[BigbadB]

Any objective discussion comparing the two players should obviously contain talk of stolen bases. Especially when we are talking lead off hitters here.

 

You're right! Juan Pierre was caught stealing 17 times last year, making his .326 OBP even worse that it already was.

 

Michaels scored 54 times in 289 at bats last year.

Pierre scored 96 times in 656 at bats last year.

 

Michaels has a better scoring ratio than Pierre even though Pierre stole 57 bases and possibly advanced extra bases on numerous occasions that Michaels probably didn't.

 

It's about getting on base at the top of the order. It's about not getting picked off or caught stealing or nailed attempting to take the extra base while your most productive hitters are at the plate.

 

Speed does have value if used properly. Getting caught stealing 17 times is 17 times your most productive hitters WON'T be trying to drive you in. 24 times the previous year. If Pierre plans on running a lot, he needs to do a better job of being successful at it.

[fromthestretch]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

Oh, i think I have quite an argument in Pierre's favor that centers on speed on the basepaths as well. A little number that is in Pierre's favor by a landslide, yet hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread. Any objective discussion comparing the two players should obviously contain talk of stolen bases. Especially when we are talking lead off hitters here.

 

Speed only matters if you're actually on base to use it. His OBP has been respectable/good for four of his six seasons. It's been subpar twice.

 

There's a good chance that Michaels could outperform Pierre (outside of stolen bases) if given the same opportunity.

[bmkhawk]

That is possible, yes. However, anyone who thinks that Pierre will outperform Michaels this year is *clearly* not in"sane".

[RockTheIvy]

I think this was a good trade for the Red Sox. They have a logjam at third, with Youkilis, Lowell and Marte and they have a hole in CF. Crisp is as good a defensive CFer as Damon, and it is not out of the question that he will match him offesively.

 

I am curious to see what this does to the Lugo talk, too.

[Blueheart05]

Michaels has shown promise in limited AB's but something is definitely wrong with, a soon to be, 30 year old player who has yet to get 300 at bats in a season. The Phillies must know something that we don't... The only sure thing about him, at this point, is that he's a great platoon option/4th outfielder.

[RockTheIvy]

Michaels has shown promise in limited AB's but something is definitely wrong with, a soon to be, 30 year old player who has yet to get 300 at bats in a season. The Phillies must know something that we don't... The only sure thing about him, at this point, is that he's a great platoon option/4th outfielder.

 

Good point!

[Jon]

You have to consider the situation and who else is on the team, though. Certainly not many people would suggest that you have to be suspicious of Cedeno because Dusty gave most of the playing time to Neifi. The Phillies outfield was full with Lofton (.335/.392/.420), Abreu (.286/.405/.474), and Burrell (.281/.389/.504) last season. In 2003, they had Byrd (.303/.366/.418) in CF.

 

And last season was Michaels' 4th in the big leagues. One could also easily suggest that he just hasn't gotten a full chance yet.

[Blueheart05]

You have to consider the situation and who else is on the team, though. Certainly not many people would suggest that you have to be suspicious of Cedeno because Dusty gave most of the playing time to Neifi. The Phillies outfield was full with Lofton (.335/.392/.420), Abreu (.286/.405/.474), and Burrell (.281/.389/.504) last season. In 2003, they had Byrd (.303/.366/.418) in CF.

 

One could also easily suggest that he just hasn't gotten a full chance yet.

 

The Cedeno analogy is a stretch; he's only had 80 career ML AB's. Whereas, Michaels has played in parts of 5 seasons (with over 800 AB's) and during his tenure, the Phillies sought outside options to fill their starting outfield positions (Michaels was there before they got Lofton. If he was a viable option they certainly could have saved money by starting him instead of seeking another player--especially one that is 9 years older).

[Jon]

You have to consider the situation and who else is on the team, though. Certainly not many people would suggest that you have to be suspicious of Cedeno because Dusty gave most of the playing time to Neifi. The Phillies outfield was full with Lofton (.335/.392/.420), Abreu (.286/.405/.474), and Burrell (.281/.389/.504) last season. In 2003, they had Byrd (.303/.366/.418) in CF.

 

One could also easily suggest that he just hasn't gotten a full chance yet.

 

The Cedeno analogy is a stretch; he's only had 80 career ML AB's. Whereas, Michaels has played in parts of 5 seasons (with over 800 AB's) and during his tenure, the Phillies sought outside options to fill their starting outfield positions (Michaels was there before they got Lofton. If he was a viable option they certainly could have saved money by starting him instead of seeking another player).

It's an example of how there are way too many factors to judge a player based on playing time. It'll be more appropriate after this season, I'm guessing.

 

One of the first things the Phillies did after acquiring Lofton was talk about how badly they wanted a veteran to be their "catalyst." That sounds pretty familiar. But you have to consider that Michaels didn't have as good of a 2004 season as he had in 2005. Still have nice OBP, though. Even more importantly, he only had 24 ABs in April and May of 2004 (injury?). That gave Byrd the opportunity to take the job and, despite him sucking at it, keep it even after Michaels got back.

[Blueheart05]

You have to consider the situation and who else is on the team, though. Certainly not many people would suggest that you have to be suspicious of Cedeno because Dusty gave most of the playing time to Neifi. The Phillies outfield was full with Lofton (.335/.392/.420), Abreu (.286/.405/.474), and Burrell (.281/.389/.504) last season. In 2003, they had Byrd (.303/.366/.418) in CF.

 

One could also easily suggest that he just hasn't gotten a full chance yet.

 

The Cedeno analogy is a stretch; he's only had 80 career ML AB's. Whereas, Michaels has played in parts of 5 seasons (with over 800 AB's) and during his tenure, the Phillies sought outside options to fill their starting outfield positions (Michaels was there before they got Lofton. If he was a viable option they certainly could have saved money by starting him instead of seeking another player).

It's an example of how there are way too many factors to judge a player based on playing time. It'll be more appropriate after this season, I'm guessing.

 

One of the first things the Phillies did after acquiring Lofton was talk about how badly they wanted a veteran to be their "catalyst." That sounds pretty familiar. But you have to consider that Michaels didn't have as good of a 2004 season as he had in 2005. Still have nice OBP, though. Even more importantly, he only had 24 ABs in April and May of 2004 (injury?). That gave Byrd the opportunity to take the job and, despite him sucking at it, keep it even after Michaels got back.

 

This season will definitely provide more insight into his skills (assuming the Indians have plans to start him everyday). My point is only that he hasn't proven anything on a full-time basis. I'm unwilling to assume that his part-time performance will be expressed during a full season; he has to prove that he won't struggle both with the rigors of playing 150-162 games and with making adjustments at the plate (because pitchers will certainly change their book on him the more he is exposed). This also goes for Murton and Cedeno.

[Radar3454]

I think this was a good trade for the Red Sox. They have a logjam at third, with Youkilis, Lowell and Marte and they have a hole in CF. Crisp is as good a defensive CFer as Damon, and it is not out of the question that he will match him offesively.

 

I am curious to see what this does to the Lugo talk, too.

 

Crisp is average in CF - Damon was great in CF other than having a terrible arm. I do like the trade for Boston b/c they really needed a CF and Crisp is a huge upgrade over what they had but IMO they downgraded defense in CF.

[fromthestretch]

Michaels has shown promise in limited AB's but something is definitely wrong with, a soon to be, 30 year old player who has yet to get 300 at bats in a season. The Phillies must know something that we don't... The only sure thing about him, at this point, is that he's a great platoon option/4th outfielder.

 

While it's certainly possible there is something wrong with him, I don't put much stock into the judgement of a team that limited his at-bats in favor of Marlon Byrd and his crappy numbers.

 

As with any player, how can people say that "he's just not an everyday" player, when he's never even been given the opportunity to prove that statement true or false? It would be one thing if Michaels was flat out terrible against right-handed pitching, but he's not.

[fromthestretch]

That is possible, yes. However, anyone who thinks that Pierre will outperform Michaels this year is *clearly* not in"sane".

 

Of course. It's certainly possible that Pierre will out-perform Michaels.

 

But considering the price tag for both players, what you'd have to give up in a trade to get each one, length of current contracts, and what each player brings to the table, can you really say that Pierre is worth that much more than Michaels?

[RockTheIvy]

I think this was a good trade for the Red Sox. They have a logjam at third, with Youkilis, Lowell and Marte and they have a hole in CF. Crisp is as good a defensive CFer as Damon, and it is not out of the question that he will match him offesively.

 

I am curious to see what this does to the Lugo talk, too.

 

Crisp is average in CF - Damon was great in CF other than having a terrible arm. I do like the trade for Boston b/c they really needed a CF and Crisp is a huge upgrade over what they had but IMO they downgraded defense in CF.

 

You're right, they did downgrade. I was looking at the data for Crisp as a corner outfielder. I'm surprised that they are willing to go with an AGonz at short. I would think they'd be better off just starting Pedroia?

[Radar3454]

I think this was a good trade for the Red Sox. They have a logjam at third, with Youkilis, Lowell and Marte and they have a hole in CF. Crisp is as good a defensive CFer as Damon, and it is not out of the question that he will match him offesively.

 

I am curious to see what this does to the Lugo talk, too.

 

Crisp is average in CF - Damon was great in CF other than having a terrible arm. I do like the trade for Boston b/c they really needed a CF and Crisp is a huge upgrade over what they had but IMO they downgraded defense in CF.

 

You're right, they did downgrade. I was looking at the data for Crisp as a corner outfielder. I'm surprised that they are willing to go with an AGonz at short. I would think they'd be better off just starting Pedroia?

 

They already have Cora who is very similar to AGonz so it suprises me also - I would give Pedroia the chance to win the job and use Cora if he didn't.

[Kingmanarama]

I think this was a good trade for the Red Sox. They have a logjam at third, with Youkilis, Lowell and Marte and they have a hole in CF. Crisp is as good a defensive CFer as Damon, and it is not out of the question that he will match him offesively.

 

I am curious to see what this does to the Lugo talk, too.

 

Crisp is average in CF - Damon was great in CF other than having a terrible arm. I do like the trade for Boston b/c they really needed a CF and Crisp is a huge upgrade over what they had but IMO they downgraded defense in CF.

 

You're right, they did downgrade. I was looking at the data for Crisp as a corner outfielder. I'm surprised that they are willing to go with an AGonz at short. I would think they'd be better off just starting Pedroia?

 

They already have Cora who is very similar to AGonz so it suprises me also - I would give Pedroia the chance to win the job and use Cora if he didn't.

 

I don't know that Cora (or Pedroia) is all that similar to Gonzalez defensively. That signing would make sense.

 

If the Indians can get Michaels straight-up for either Rhodes or Betancourt, I'm going to be ill.

[E.J.]

The latest from Rotoworld:

 

Coco Crisp - OF - Indians

 

 

According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Paul Hoynes, the Indians will acquire Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota and a minor league pitcher from the Red Sox for Coco Crisp and two low-level prospects.

Hoynes indicates that a physical for Mota, scheduled for early in the week, is the only hurdle left. If the deal is finalized, the Indians would likely then trade Mota, Arthur Rhodes or David Riske to the Phillies for Jason Michaels. We're left to wonder why the Red Sox just don't trade Mota for Michaels themselves. It'd make a lot more sense than this. Jan. 22 - 8:55 pm et

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer

[Mike Aller]

Crap, I hate to see Coco go, but at least we are getting a lot in return...in theory at least.

 

By the way, Crisp is going to be a superstar as long as he is playing in a big market like Boston.

[CubDad4Ever]

ridiculous , statement on michaels. Massive simplification. There is a reason he has been a part time player. James would laugh at your argument as i would. Assuming a full time number from a massive part time metric on top of the fact he is 30. Your right everyone else has forgot that best kept secret Pierre is not the great leadoff man on all levels . that everyone in baseball says he is . It is michaels and he has been kept out of a full time job until he is 30 because everyone in baseball cant get it. Small sample size , historical age disadvantage. You would be lucking out your rear to get full time numbers on those metrics. But that would defeat your part time obp, nefi stinks, dustys dump and slappy Jaun simplifications. O and forgot when you assume that much , you make a you know what out of you and me. Gods Peace Coach L. Sorry for the semi aggressive posture. Its not personal , i just dont by those redundent arguments

[imb]

Did you run that through babel fish?