Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[Scott G. F.]

The Cubs have a lead off hitter. This is good. The player will play Center Field and take the place of CP. This is also good.

 

I'm happy we got this guy. Furcal would have filled more holes but Hendry needed to land this guy to lead off and he got him.

 

The Cubs farm system is so bloated with marginal prospect that have unrealized potential it makes me ill. Lets try and win one WS and if it takes making hard choices then so be it.

 

 

Touch call JH, but you get your man! Good job!

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The reason no one was on base was Dusty's infatuation with speed at the top of the order - so he used CPatt and Neifi. It's not like we didn't have better options.

 

You should be careful when mentioning the words speed and Neifi together. Neifi was up there because he could bunt, I guess (I have no other logical explanation).

[JonnyRed]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

That's how I see it too. Despite his speed, in 2005 Pierre had only 19 doubles in 719 plate appearances. He hits the ball softly and tall grass won't help him unless he wants to bunt half the time.

 

Boy, I've heard a lot of wacky analysis before, but now we are determining the success of a trade based on our tall infield grass??? You know, they can always cut it short to help Pierre. I wouldn't worry about it.

[erik316wttn]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

[fiver]

For those of us still wondering, the MLB.com piece was posted at 1:30AM Chicago time. That would seem to me to be a reason to give credence to the fact that Mitre was included.

 

My suspicion is that Dan Jennings was most likely correct in stating the deal includes Mitre and excludes a Marlins prospect. Dan is the assistant GM and VP in charge of player personnel for the Marlins.

 

http://www.perfectgame.org/2005/stories/03_17_05_dan_jennings.cfm

 

edit - the link doesn't recap what Dan stated during the interview this morning, but it does verify that he is the Marlin's VP in charge of player personnel. Dan was interviewd by WNSP in Mobile at around 7:45 this morning.

Edited December 7, 2005 by fiver

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I'd really like to see a better SB% from Pierre in 2006. If he gets on at a .360 clip with 80%+ SB%, I'll be showing him love all season long. I don't care how he gets on, as long as he gets there.

 

I really don't like the up and down nature of his game, but this team is due a little luck.

[BigbadB]

This entire thread is irritating. It's just a bunch of you guys trying to sound smarter than one another by spewing stats and formulas that you read one time on Baseball Prospectus. My guess is that half of you don't even understand how to apply them.

 

Is Pierre a flawed player? Absolutely.

 

He's not perfect. But he does do some nice things. And most importantly, he's a Cub now, and I'm going to root for him and hope that he rebounds and has a great year. You guys can go ahead keep stepping all over one another to sound like the smartest loon in the asylum. I've had enough.

 

Why is an intelligent discussion from people who disagree about a particular subject such a bad thing?

 

That's how I learned so much. And, I'm still learning new stuff everyday.

[USSoccer]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

If Pie develops and is ready by next season, then there's no way on earth you want to keep Pierre as a 4th OF. You'd let him walk and (depending) offer arb for the draft picks.

[frostwyrm]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

That question is tottally irrelavent unless the Cubs just traded for Podsednik.

 

Pierre is likely better than Patterson, but only fractionally better. Suppose he gets hit in the leg with a FB. He probably will not be on the DL so he may play every day. Untill his leg fully heals he has almost no value.

 

I am more scared of Pierre playing with minor leg injuries than I am of him being completely disabled. Even something insignificant, like a sore ankle, can render him absolutely useless, even though he would still be physically able to play. Without his speed he has zero value and the team would be better off putting even a replacement level player in CF.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

he certainly can play RF, but his value plummets in right.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Either that or it's purely chance.

[erik316wttn]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

If Pie develops and is ready by next season, then there's no way on earth you want to keep Pierre as a 4th OF. You'd let him walk and (depending) offer arb for the draft picks.

 

True, although say we back off from power a bit, and have Pierre and Pie in the same of, with Murton in left? Is that too much of a lack of power, or do you think we can pull it off?

[USSoccer]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

If Pie develops and is ready by next season, then there's no way on earth you want to keep Pierre as a 4th OF. You'd let him walk and (depending) offer arb for the draft picks.

 

True, although say we back off from power a bit, and have Pierre and Pie in the same of, with Murton in left? Is that too much of a lack of power, or do you think we can pull it off?

 

It's a bit much to think Pie could change to RF and hit with enough power to make it worthwile.

 

Likewise, Pierre would be completely useless anywhere but CF.

[BigbadB]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Either that or it's purely chance.

 

Dusty Baker will be along shortly to explain why Pierre is better during the day. :D

[DesMoinesCub]

I personally don't mind this trade at all. I can't believe I read through 18 to see what everyone had to say.

 

Honestly, some people love the trade, some hate it. Simple as that.

 

Diffusion, you keep bringing up Pierre CS. I don't see him running nearly as much with Baker (although Baker has surprised me before).

 

Also, just throwing this out there...what if we get Bradley to play RF (which I think is a good idea, but scares me a little) and upgrade at another position. Someone pointed out the fact that corner OF give you your "power" numbers. However, what if we get "power" from another position. I really don't care where the production is coming from as long as they are productive.

 

So my thought...

I know a lot of people don't like Soriano, but what if he is not leading off. We can get some "power" from our 2nd basemen that we might be lacking with an OF of Murton/Pierre/Bradley.

 

CF- Pierre

RF- Bradley

1B- Lee

3B- Ramirez

2B- Soriano

LF- Murton

C- Barrett

SS- Cedano

 

We also have a lot of money to spend. Could this mean getting a more expensive player to play RF? I don't have the answers...feel free to rip away...I don't take offense to it.

[Diffusion]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Just because it's the only explanation that you can come up with doesn't mean it's the explanation.

 

You're right, he's still getting caught - but what I meant was that it's not entirely his fault. If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out? What I'm saying is that, while not completely flawed, you can't just lower a guy's OBP for every time he gets thrown out at second base because it's not always his fault.

 

What does it matter if it's his fault or not? The point is he's still getting caught. He's still out. He still can't come around and score.

 

Are you trying to irrationally argue, as USSoccer is, that Hendry/Baker have gone to such lengths to acquire this prototypical speedy leadoff man just so that they can tell him to run less often, to get caught stealing less often?

[Chocolate Milk]

We did something!!!

[Tracer Bullet]

The reason no one was on base was Dusty's infatuation with speed at the top of the order - so he used CPatt and Neifi. It's not like we didn't have better options.

 

You should be careful when mentioning the words speed and Neifi together. Neifi was up there because he could bunt, I guess (I have no other logical explanation).

 

I should have been more clear. I wouldn't say Neifi has a ton of speed, but I'm guessing he's faster than Walker. That's the only reason I can see for Dusty having him lead off instead of Walker.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

If Pie develops and is ready by next season, then there's no way on earth you want to keep Pierre as a 4th OF. You'd let him walk and (depending) offer arb for the draft picks.

 

True, although say we back off from power a bit, and have Pierre and Pie in the same of, with Murton in left? Is that too much of a lack of power, or do you think we can pull it off?

 

It's a bit much to think Pie could change to RF and hit with enough power to make it worthwile.

 

Likewise, Pierre would be completely useless anywhere but CF.

 

i don't know about that. i'd enjoy watching Pierre ride the pine with Neifi. :twisted:

[Tracer Bullet]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

I for one am praying this is only a 1-year rental. It's bad enough to have him for 1 year, let alone 3. Don't give Jim any ideas.

[goonys evil twin]

If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out?

 

I though McKeon actually greatly reduced the number of steal attempts after he replaced the old guy (Torberg?). Florida ran all the time and stunk in 2002 and early 2003. They still weren't good runners in 2004 and 2005, but they did it a whole lot less, creating fewer outs, and that helped the team.

 

And Dusty isn't exactly known to be a great guesser of the other team's strategy. He's run at very inopportune times himself. So it's not like coming here will negate that "unluckiness" of having a manager call for a SB at a bad time.

 

It really doesn't matter whose "fault" it is, what matter is the result. And the result of Pierre running is far too often an out.

 

For instance, people who like to talk up the value of a steal tend to speak very highly of the importance of a stolen base in the pennant race or playoffs, when you just need that 1 run. And they usually bring up the Roberts steal in NY. But in that instance, everybody knew Roberts was going, and he still made it. He was a good base stealer (during those three years where he was any good). He was also a pinch runner. If you want stolen bases in clutch situations when everybody knows you're going why not call Bacon up from the minors? The two things he does well are draw walks and steal bases. Fill your regular lineup with the best hitters you can find (not the fastest guy or the most powerful or the most left handed or the most closely resembling a stereotypical "classic" leadoff hitter, just the best you can find) and then let your bench be filled by the one dimensional guys who do one thing well.

[erik316wttn]

I don't want to get into the whole "do you really need power at power positions" arguments, but do you think having hitters like Mark Grace or Tony Gwynn at "power positions" hurt their teams?

[fromthestretch]

We did something!!!

 

That pretty much sums it up right there. :lol:

[Mizzou]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Either that or it's purely chance.

 

Well, when it happens every single year, I'd say it's more than something random.

[USSoccer]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Just because it's the only explanation that you can come up with doesn't mean it's the explanation.

 

You're right, he's still getting caught - but what I meant was that it's not entirely his fault. If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out? What I'm saying is that, while not completely flawed, you can't just lower a guy's OBP for every time he gets thrown out at second base because it's not always his fault.

 

What does it matter if it's his fault or not? The point is he's still getting caught. He's still out. He still can't come around and score.

 

Are you trying to irrationally argue, as USSoccer is, that Hendry/Baker have gone to such lengths to acquire this prototypical speedy leadoff man just so that they can tell him to run less often, to get caught stealing less often?

 

Hey, now! I'm not being irrational about it, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

I said it earlier, this isn't the best move they could have made, but it's not a disaster either. It's a better move than signing Lofton, who is likely to fall of the face of the production earth, and maybe a bit better, if not equal to gettting Bradley, who might get hurt/arrested/deported.

 

And I don't think it's irrational to think that instead of Pierre running 80 times, he'll likely only run about 50 or 60. Baker just isn't that aggressive. That might help his percentage, it might not make a bit of difference.

Edited December 7, 2005 by USSoccer