From the Score (I know, I know):

[WrigleyField 22]

let's just keep Patterson, who was Pierre's equal offensively in '03-'04

 

Corey '03 .298 .329 .511

'04 .266 .320 .452

 

Pierre Career .305 .355 .375

 

Or are you just judging Pierre on last years stats? Cuz I seem to remember a lot of people saying we can't only use the previous years stats, see Howry, Eyre. So which is it? Or can we just pick and choose what stats we want to use?

EDIT- I'm not sure if you specifically said anything against Howry/Eyre, I'm juat using it as an example.

 

Look at offensive metrics like WARP2 at BP, they show that Patterson and Pierre were near equals in '03-'04(note: not last year for either player).

 

Perhaps you could explain WARP to me, because all the site really says is that it counts how many wins the contributed. Exactly how do you figure that out.

 

I think Pierre at the 1 or 2 spot in front of Lee and Aram is gonna win us more games with CPatt there.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How many Red Sox fans are crying over the trade of Hanley Ramirez? Um, pretty much none.

 

Beckett is so much more valuable than Pierre, it's not even close.

 

And again, Walker is a capable leadoff hitter, and we have him until we get someone like Furcal, who while overpriced, may be an unfortunate necessity like I outlined responding to USSoccer.

 

He may be capable, but Baker won't lead him off. Dusty Baker making Walker leadoff man is just pure fantasy thinking.

 

Walker had 228 AB's in the leadoff spot playing for Baker in '04(where he put up a .294/.370/.535/.905). More than every other spot in the order combined.

[Balsa]

I'll let others commisserate in front of their Our Blessed Martyr Prospect Shrine

 

I'm sorry but this is hilarious! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[CubfaninCA]

How many Red Sox fans are crying over the trade of Hanley Ramirez? Um, pretty much none.

 

Beckett is so much more valuable than Pierre, it's not even close.

 

And again, Walker is a capable leadoff hitter, and we have him until we get someone like Furcal, who while overpriced, may be an unfortunate necessity like I outlined responding to USSoccer.

 

He may be capable, but Baker won't lead him off. Dusty Baker making Walker leadoff man is just pure fantasy thinking.

 

Walker had 228 AB's in the leadoff spot playing for Baker in '04(where he put up a .294/.370/.535/.905). More than every other spot in the order combined.

 

How many leadoff AB's he have last year?? Baker obviously prefers him elsewhere.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

let's just keep Patterson, who was Pierre's equal offensively in '03-'04

 

Corey '03 .298 .329 .511

'04 .266 .320 .452

 

Pierre Career .305 .355 .375

 

Or are you just judging Pierre on last years stats? Cuz I seem to remember a lot of people saying we can't only use the previous years stats, see Howry, Eyre. So which is it? Or can we just pick and choose what stats we want to use?

EDIT- I'm not sure if you specifically said anything against Howry/Eyre, I'm juat using it as an example.

 

Look at offensive metrics like WARP2 at BP, they show that Patterson and Pierre were near equals in '03-'04(note: not last year for either player).

 

Perhaps you could explain WARP to me, because all the site really says is that it counts how many wins the contributed. Exactly how do you figure that out.

 

I think Pierre at the 1 or 2 spot in front of Lee and Aram is gonna win us more games with CPatt there.

 

If WARP's not your thing try Runs Created(there are a lot of different variations, but googling it should give you a basic idea). Since it's a cumulative stat, taking a ratio per AB shows that Patterson was right with Pierre in '04, and the same if not better in '03.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How many Red Sox fans are crying over the trade of Hanley Ramirez? Um, pretty much none.

 

Beckett is so much more valuable than Pierre, it's not even close.

 

And again, Walker is a capable leadoff hitter, and we have him until we get someone like Furcal, who while overpriced, may be an unfortunate necessity like I outlined responding to USSoccer.

 

He may be capable, but Baker won't lead him off. Dusty Baker making Walker leadoff man is just pure fantasy thinking.

 

Walker had 228 AB's in the leadoff spot playing for Baker in '04(where he put up a .294/.370/.535/.905). More than every other spot in the order combined.

 

How many leadoff AB's he have last year?? Baker obviously prefers him elsewhere.

 

Obviously?

[CubfaninCA]

How many Red Sox fans are crying over the trade of Hanley Ramirez? Um, pretty much none.

 

Beckett is so much more valuable than Pierre, it's not even close.

 

And again, Walker is a capable leadoff hitter, and we have him until we get someone like Furcal, who while overpriced, may be an unfortunate necessity like I outlined responding to USSoccer.

 

He may be capable, but Baker won't lead him off. Dusty Baker making Walker leadoff man is just pure fantasy thinking.

 

Walker had 228 AB's in the leadoff spot playing for Baker in '04(where he put up a .294/.370/.535/.905). More than every other spot in the order combined.

 

How many leadoff AB's he have last year?? Baker obviously prefers him elsewhere.

 

Obviously?

 

Obvious to anyone who followed 2005.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How many leadoff AB's he have last year?? Baker obviously prefers him elsewhere.

 

Obviously?

 

Obvious to anyone who followed 2005.

 

And it's obvious to anyone who followed '04 that he didn't have a problem with him there. Certainly not "pure fantasy thinking".

[Sarcastic]

If WARP's not your thing try Runs Created(there are a lot of different variations, but googling it should give you a basic idea). Since it's a cumulative stat, taking a ratio per AB shows that Patterson was right with Pierre in '04, and the same if not better in '03.

 

I kind of wonder how close Corey will ever get to what he did back in 2003. I think Corey's chances of rebounding from a truely god-awful 2005 are much lower than Pierre's.

[CubfaninCA]

How many leadoff AB's he have last year?? Baker obviously prefers him elsewhere.

 

Obviously?

 

Obvious to anyone who followed 2005.

 

And it's obvious to anyone who followed '04 that he didn't have a problem with him there. Certainly not "pure fantasy thinking".

 

If you think Baker will bat Walker leadoff in 06, you're one of the few people on this board who has any faith in the Baker.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If WARP's not your thing try Runs Created(there are a lot of different variations, but googling it should give you a basic idea). Since it's a cumulative stat, taking a ratio per AB shows that Patterson was right with Pierre in '04, and the same if not better in '03.

 

I kind of wonder how close Corey will ever get to what he did back in 2003. I think Corey's chances of rebounding from a truely god-awful 2005 are much lower than Pierre's.

 

Probably. The point however is that people have written off Patterson for dead, mostly because of his terrible 2005. While that's certainly not unreasonable, I believe some of the same people advocating cutting bait with Patterson are strongly advocating getting Pierre, when he had a terrible 2005 as well(granted not as bad as Patterson), and is no guarantee to return to his previous form, which isn't fantastic to begin with.

[WrigleyField 22]

Well even after googling I couldn't find anything that clearly stated how WARP works, but I will say that I can't see how you can isolate the wins from a single player when its a team sport. I mean this both when you win and lose. For example couldn't Lee have contributed a lot more wins if he had a more capable offense? And wouldn't it have been easier for Pujols to contribute wins with his supporting cast?

 

I'm not saying Pierre is the best option(althouh a good one). But I can't see how Patterson striking out 100 times and getting on base .300 or worse (.330 tops) is better than Pierre getting on base at .350, .320 at his lowest and .370 if he can put another good year together.

If you wanna argue some other CF's Michaels, Lofton, I can understand, but I think this is bias talking cuz he happens to be a favorite of yours. Not criticizing you for clinging to a favorite, even if he isnt that good, we all do it.

[XZero771679666304]

How many leadoff AB's he have last year?? Baker obviously prefers him elsewhere.

 

Obviously?

 

Obvious to anyone who followed 2005.

 

And it's obvious to anyone who followed '04 that he didn't have a problem with him there. Certainly not "pure fantasy thinking".

 

Baker had ample opportunity and reason to bat Walker in the leadoff spot in 2005 and didn't. Walker did a very good job in the first half of 2004, but if there were ever a time to lead Walker off it was last year, and we saw what happened. There is no reason to expect that Baker would lead Walker off in 2006.

 

Furthermore, all indications have been that Walker won't even be on the team in 2006.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Well even after googling I couldn't find anything that clearly stated how WARP works, but I will say that I can't see how you can isolate the wins from a single player when its a team sport. I mean this both when you win and lose. For example couldn't Lee have contributed a lot more wins if he had a more capable offense? And wouldn't it have been easier for Pujols to contribute wins with his supporting cast?

 

I'm not saying Pierre is the best option(althouh a good one). But I can't see how Patterson striking out 100 times and getting on base .300 or worse (.320 tops) is better than Pierre getting on base at .350, .320 at his lowest and .370 if he can put another good year together.

If you wanna argue some other CF's Michaels, Lofton, I can understand, but I think this is bias talking cuz he happens to be a favorite of yours. Not criticizing you for clinging to a favorite, even if he isnt that good, we all do it.

 

Look at the RC numbers for Patterson and Pierre for those two years. Pierre's complete lack of power took away from his advantage in OBP, they were very similar in overall production. I already said that Pierre is probably more likely to return to those numbers, but my point was that Pierre at his best isn't a world-beater, and that he(like Patterson) had a very bad '05. How is that biased for Patterson?

[WrigleyField 22]

Well even after googling I couldn't find anything that clearly stated how WARP works, but I will say that I can't see how you can isolate the wins from a single player when its a team sport. I mean this both when you win and lose. For example couldn't Lee have contributed a lot more wins if he had a more capable offense? And wouldn't it have been easier for Pujols to contribute wins with his supporting cast?

 

I'm not saying Pierre is the best option(althouh a good one). But I can't see how Patterson striking out 100 times and getting on base .300 or worse (.320 tops) is better than Pierre getting on base at .350, .320 at his lowest and .370 if he can put another good year together.

If you wanna argue some other CF's Michaels, Lofton, I can understand, but I think this is bias talking cuz he happens to be a favorite of yours. Not criticizing you for clinging to a favorite, even if he isnt that good, we all do it.

 

Look at the RC numbers for Patterson and Pierre for those two years. Pierre's complete lack of power took away from his advantage in OBP, they were very similar in overall production. I already said that Pierre is probably more likely to return to those numbers, but my point was that Pierre at his best isn't a world-beater, and that he(like Patterson) had a very bad '05. How is that biased for Patterson?

 

Why do we need power from Pierre? We aren't looking to fill a middle of the order type hitter that Corey would project to be at his best. We need a guy to simply get on base for Lee and Aram, plus hopefully a RF that we get.

 

I didn't realize your point was that they both had crappy 2005. It originally seemed like your point was Corey was basically as good as Pierre.

Pierre has twice put up .370 OBP in his career. That may not be world beater, but its damn good. Even if he is a little below career average say .340, its better than what Corey is likely to put up.

[WrigleyField 22]

Pierre's three year daytime splits...

.341 .395 .438 .833

[abuck1220]

Me three. Though I'd rather trade Hill than the other two (sorry abuck).

 

[-X

 

 

 

if trading pierre prevents hendry from spending big bat $ on furcal, i guess i'm ok w/ it. i'm not a huge fan of either, but i've come to terms w/ the fact that todd walker will not be leading off for the cubs next year...

[treebird]

my dog was listening to the radio a few minutes ago and he says they said the trade is official

 

he could be wrong though, it has happened before

[Sabermetrician]

my dog was listening to the radio a few minutes ago and he says they said the trade is official

 

he could be wrong though, it has happened before

 

When I first read that, I thought it said "My dad," and I believe you, lol

[treebird]

my dog was listening to the radio a few minutes ago and he says they said the trade is official

 

he could be wrong though, it has happened before

 

When I first read that, I thought it said "My dad," and I believe you, lol

 

if you are implying that i am a canine i am very offended

 

im pretty sure you're not though

[NorthsideAvenger]

.310/.353

.327/.378

.287/.332

.305/.361

.326/.374

.276/.324

(.305/.355 career numbers)

 

I’m leaving out SLG/OPS cause let’s face it, Pierre won’t provide any power whatsoever, nor would he be asked to. Pierre has had two yrs in which he didn’t hit .300 nor got on base at a .350 clip or higher. Pierre knows what kind of player he is (Patterson doesn’t) and he knows what he has to do to be successful. Pierre is slap-hitter, and anybody who using his “lack of power” as a detriment to his ability is not gauging him as a player. The Cubs wouldn’t need him to provide power, what the Cubs would ask of Pierre is to slap the ball around the field, get on, and create havoc on the basepaths, in other words…..create run scoring opportunities for the “Big Guns” in the middle of the order. And while Pierre had a down yr, I expect him to rebound EXTREMELY nice in 2006 and put up numbers closer to his career numbers of .305/.355 instead of his 2004 numbers. Some of you guys might not like Pierre, but I for one---outside of the weak arm---like the player, and I think he brings it to the field everyday, and I see a lot of Kenny Lofton in him, in terms of spunk. He has a down yr every three or so yrs, so going by career numbers his first yr in Chicago should be something along the lines .305/.360 type season with around 60 stolen bases, 100/110 runs scored. And the most important stat……HE WOULD PLAY EVERYDAY. He isn’t Ichiro, but he could tremendously help the Cubs out in 2006 and maybe beyond.

 

I rather give up three decent prospects for Pierre (who is 28 yrs old), then give out over $10 million a yr to Johnny Damon (he is 32 yrs old).

[Sabermetrician]

mlbtraderumors.com

 

Juan Pierre To Cubs Complete

 

670 The Score in Chicago and RotoWorld are reporting that the Cubs have finalized their deal for center fielder Juan Pierre. Left-handed starter Renyel Pinto and two other unknown prospects will head to the Marlins in the deal.

 

The trade was originally reported by Bruce Levine on ESPN Radio 1000 on November 14th. After speaking with Bruce, MLBTradeRumors.com was able to narrow the possible prospects down to a list of five pitchers.

 

The Cubs hope Pierre can bounce back after posting his lowest OBP since his rookie season. Pierre's game is reliant upon his ability to get on base. He's a subpar defender; Pierre posted the worst range factor in Major League Baseball in 2005 among regular center fielders.

 

The Marlins continue to stack up promising young pitchers as their fire sale continues. Pinto struggled mightily in six Triple A starts, but did an admirable job in 129 Double A innings this year. The stint in Triple A Iowa was his second failed attempt at that level. Pinto continues to be plagued by his high walk rate, but hasn't yet gotten a fair shake in Iowa.

 

Baseball America ranked the 23 year-old righthander 6th among Cubs prospects entering the 2005 season. He has a good changeup, lively fastball, and deceptive delivery.

 

Now, considering the last update on Rotoworld is this yet this site claims they're reporting it's done, I don't know what value to put in this. Pierre rumors have been active all ofseason, there's no doubt in my mind that he will eventually be a Cub, I just don't know when that'll be.

 

WSCR 670 in Chicago is reporting that the Cubs are close to acquiring Juan Pierre from the Marlins for three prospects.

One would be left-hander Renyel Pinto. According to the report, center fielder Felix Pie wouldn't be involved. Another expendable reliever probably would be. Roberto Novoa or Jermaine Van Buren could help the Marlins. Nov. 23 - 9:10 pm et

[Sabermetrician]

No mention at all of Pierre at the 3:20 ET update - only Cubs mention was the Howry deal.

[Diffusion]

How many Red Sox fans are crying over the trade of Hanley Ramirez? Um, pretty much none.

 

Red Sox trade a top prospect or two and get one of the most valuable young starting pitchers in all of baseball period, a decent third baseman, they get to keep both for two years at least and, considered together, the Red Sox are paying a decent price in dollars for them.

 

Cubs trade a top(-pish) prospect and another pair of minor leaguers and get a player that on the whole is at best average, that is going to be paid as though he's above average, and that is a free agent in one year's time.

 

One of these teams has a GM. The other doesn't. One of these teams has won ninety-five games in each of the last three years. The other has won ninety-five games once in the last sixty years. One of these teams has won the World Series under the current President. The other last won the World Series under Theodore Roosevelt.

[mhuber92211]

I have begun to shake my head at these threads more and more. We demand changes from a "top 5" payroll team because it didn't work. So we put our money where our mouth is and people are upset with the way it is being spent. Yet none of the current ransactions have resulted in the team not acquiring any other players. Eventully will it? Maybe, but not before the remaining issues have been dealt with.

 

As for the idea of Hendry having a top 5 payroll and not being successful with I strongly disagree. Defining success is winning. Hendry has won more games in his tenure then any other GM in recent history. Now our expectations are higher because of this sucess. But what is interesting is that the sucess that led to the higher expectations now is not deemed as sucess at all but an example of the failure of the administration.

 

Its not faith that we need to have in the leaders of the Cubs organization, we just need to tell ourselves the right stories.