Howry signs with Cubs (yes, it's official)

[CubinNY]

A comment on the concern that the Cubs might be closing in on using up all their allowed free agent signings, could it be yet another sign that the outfield will be upgraded via trade?

 

Or it could be a sign that Hendry will resign Burnitz and keep Patterson in CF.

 

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying that is what will happen

[wade]

A comment on the concern that the Cubs might be closing in on using up all their allowed free agent signings, could it be yet another sign that the outfield will be upgraded via trade?

 

Or it could be a sign that Hendry will resign Burnitz and keep Patterson in CF.

 

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying that is what will happen

 

No kidding. You know, if the upgrade in right is significant I'd be o.k. with Patterson. Like others have said (BBB in particular, I think) his value is so low, they're arguably better off batting him 7th or 8th and hoping for a rebound.

[JeffH]

I highly doubt the Cubs are at risk of a grievence if they use Dempster as a set-up man rather than a closer.

 

I wonder what the basis for your doubt is.

 

You'd be greatly lowering Dempster's market value for his next contract.

[RynoRules]

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

isn't he supposed to be the clubhouse/chemistry/attitude superking? if so, he should take it in stride since it would be the best thing for the team.

 

Sure. That seems to be the response anytime this question or one like it comes up. Its a very helpful and productive solution.

 

A better argument - and one I could understand - would be that we should not have resigned Dempster until we took a run at Ryan. That's a reasonable argument.

 

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I love how these guys are treated like robots simply b/c stats exist by which we can evaluate them.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

well, you're acting like they're sensitive, insecure little cry babies that will single handedly take down a team from the inside if they pitch the 8th inning instead of the 9th.

 

Yeah, so? I guess that sort of thing has never happened, according to you? It happens all the time (I don't have the time to tick off all the examples, but lets start with Sosa's crying about being "demoted" to the six hole in the line up) But I am not sure if I would blame Dempster if he they signed him to close and then went out and grabbed Ryan.

[goonys evil twin]

I highly doubt the Cubs are at risk of a grievence if they use Dempster as a set-up man rather than a closer.

 

I wonder what the basis for your doubt is.

 

You'd be greatly lowering Dempster's market value for his next contract.

 

The basis for my doubt is that I think that would be a ridiculously far-fetched, and unprecedented theory. And that I think Dempster is pretty much a good guy and team player who is very happy with how the Cubs have treated him and would love to see the team get better. He never begged for the job. This isn't a TO situation. He's got nothing to stand on. If he has incentive clauses for games finished, I could see his agent asking for them to be changed to appearances, but I highly, highly doubt he'd be a problem. And I think that the fear of him tearing apart this team from the inside is a rather illogical reason to avoid upgrading the bullpen with the best arms possible.

[brinoch]

Wow, up to 18 pages of people complaining about a possible move that will no doubt make our team better? The negativity on this board has kicked into over drive this offseason.

 

Wow, that was a ridiculous thing to say. This has hardly been 18 pages of complaining. I've seen a lot of the space used for questions, clarifications and praise.

 

 

But it's good to see the spirit police spring into action to try and haul in those evil people who have the audacity to question a move made by the impeccable Cubs management team.

 

I've read the thread, the majority of it has been complaining.

 

Spirit police? LOL. No, it's just that no matter what Hendry does (or doesn't do) he gets slammed for it, and frankly it gets old. Signing Howry will make our team better. The specifics of the contract may not be ideal in your eyes, but answer me this: when was the last contract that a Cubs player signed that you thought WAS ideal?

 

Dem's the breaks of a messageboard. You are always going to attract adherents of various philosphies that clash in their immediate, long-term, and player targeting priorities.

 

Some want to upgrade pitching, some the offense, others want more defense. Everyone has an opinion, and I'm glad to see that many are offering those opinions! Debate is healthy, and the lifeblood of a messageboard.

[Mark_R]

Wow, up to 18 pages of people complaining about a possible move that will no doubt make our team better? The negativity on this board has kicked into over drive this offseason.

 

Wow, that was a ridiculous thing to say. This has hardly been 18 pages of complaining. I've seen a lot of the space used for questions, clarifications and praise.

 

 

But it's good to see the spirit police spring into action to try and haul in those evil people who have the audacity to question a move made by the impeccable Cubs management team.

 

I'm just glad we're all above labels, since you know, this board hates them so much.

[CuseCubFan69]

Let's please get back on topic and stop the labeling of posters.

 

Thank you.

[SeldomSeen]

The guy just got a huge extension! We're not taking money away from him, we're putting him in a different role. Would you accept a demotion if you got a huge raise and job security for several years?

You don't become a professional athlete without a competitive ego. No, I wouldn't be happy about "job security" and a "huge raise" that came along with a demotion. I also wouldn't want to spend 8 months with a guy who was told to do just that. You play to compete and win, the money is a secondary issue.

 

 

Right, money is secondary.

 

If Dempster would turn into a problem child if the Cubs acquired a far better reliever and gave that guy the closer's role, then Dempster is a bigger clubhouse cancer than any of the victim's of the great chemistry experiment of 2004.

 

We just differ on how we'd deal with the people involved, not necessarily on how we'd build the team. I'm all for signing the best guy available for any given position, but if Dempster was signed as the closer, and that was part of the negotiations, once he's signed I'm no longer looking for a closer. It looks like Hendry is following this "checklist" type of offseason, and looking to fill other perceived holes. Whether or not Dempster was the best option is another debate for an earlier time.

 

Also, I'm not saying some guys don't eventually get to the point of playing for paychecks, but that's not what got them to the major leagues. The best guys want to win, be it in golf, ping pong, or celebrity bowling tournaments.:wink:

[sethuel1]

Let's please get back on topic and stop the labeling of posters.

 

Thank you.

party pooper

[badger1679666666]

Deleted post. Edited November 22, 2005 by badger

[goonys evil twin]

But it's good to see the spirit police spring into action to try and haul in those evil people who have the audacity to question a move made by the impeccable Cubs management team.

 

I'm talking about how incredibly immature it is of you to blah blah blah

 

The hypocracy is palpable.

 

Please, tell me where the hypocrisy is.

 

There was a long discussion about this reported signing, and then a whole bunch of stuff related to it. It was hardly all negative or complaining. But somebody felt the need to once again admonish those people who were in the discussion for taking part, and for having opinions. The whole point of this board is to have discussions and share opinions. I didn't threaten to bump this thread and shove that back in his face if next season indeed does end in failure due to a bunch of bad signings.

[brinoch]

But it's good to see the spirit police spring into action to try and haul in those evil people who have the audacity to question a move made by the impeccable Cubs management team.

 

I'm talking about how incredibly immature it is of you to blah blah blah

 

The hypocracy is palpable.

 

Cuse has already asked to get this thread on topic and to stop labeling posters. Let the Mods do their jobs. If you have a concern, let one of the online Mods know and he or she will handle it as quickly as possible.

[CuseCubFan69]

I warned you all politely once and it was ignored so until the thread will remain locked for awhile. Let's not have this escalate into a debate on something off topic please. If you want to have a personal arguement please do it via e-mail or AIM and not on here.

 

Thank you.

[JeffH]

I highly doubt the Cubs are at risk of a grievence if they use Dempster as a set-up man rather than a closer.

 

I wonder what the basis for your doubt is.

 

You'd be greatly lowering Dempster's market value for his next contract.

 

The basis for my doubt is that I think that would be a ridiculously far-fetched, and unprecedented theory. And that I think Dempster is pretty much a good guy and team player who is very happy with how the Cubs have treated him and would love to see the team get better. He never begged for the job. This isn't a TO situation. He's got nothing to stand on. If he has incentive clauses for games finished, I could see his agent asking for them to be changed to appearances, but I highly, highly doubt he'd be a problem. And I think that the fear of him tearing apart this team from the inside is a rather illogical reason to avoid upgrading the bullpen with the best arms possible.

 

I have to admit that I misread your first answer. I agree that it's very likely that Dempster wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

My underlying point is that signing player X, bumping player Y from the role he was signed for is not the kind of thing that's done without player Y's permission. As I said before, I believe that players have the means through the union to protect themselves against that type of thing. Whether they use them is a separate issue.

[badgercub]

Oh, good, the thread is back. I just wanted to make an observation on the topic of filing a grievance. I am 99.9% sure Goony was correct. I don't think there would be anything in Dempster's contract promising him he will be the closer. Look at all the injuries from last year, what would happen in a bunch of starters went down and Dempster got pressed into service to start because he has prior experience doing that, would he file a grievance then? what if he starts to suck, can the Cubs take that job away from him? Sure they can, people get transferred in their jobs all the time. If Dempster didn't like it, he could quit and tell the Cubs to keep their money.

[badger1679666666]

Oh, good, the thread is back. I just wanted to make an observation on the topic of filing a grievance. I am 99.9% sure Goony was correct. I don't think there would be anything in Dempster's contract promising him he will be the closer. Look at all the injuries from last year, what would happen in a bunch of starters went down and Dempster got pressed into service to start because he has prior experience doing that, would he file a grievance then? what if he starts to suck, can the Cubs take that job away from him? Sure they can, people get transferred in their jobs all the time. If Dempster didn't like it, he could quit and tell the Cubs to keep their money.

 

Is that really the type of reputation you want your organization to have. IT would have an impact on future FA signings. Right now, If I'm not mistaken, Hendry really appears to be a man of his word, for better or worse. Mistreating players, misleading players would get around through the fraternity. Hence why I don't want him to F over Walker (besides the fact his production for 2.5 million is an absolute steal.

[badgercub]

Oh, good, the thread is back. I just wanted to make an observation on the topic of filing a grievance. I am 99.9% sure Goony was correct. I don't think there would be anything in Dempster's contract promising him he will be the closer. Look at all the injuries from last year, what would happen in a bunch of starters went down and Dempster got pressed into service to start because he has prior experience doing that, would he file a grievance then? what if he starts to suck, can the Cubs take that job away from him? Sure they can, people get transferred in their jobs all the time. If Dempster didn't like it, he could quit and tell the Cubs to keep their money.

 

Is that really the type of reputation you want your organization to have. IT would have an impact on future FA signings. Right now, If I'm not mistaken, Hendry really appears to be a man of his word, for better or worse. Mistreating players, misleading players would get around through the fraternity. Hence why I don't want him to F over Walker (besides the fact his production for 2.5 million is an absolute steal.

 

But everything is fluid and I think the players realize that. If a situation arises where you are able to acquire a premier closer, I dont' think it would ruin your reputation by moving Dempster (who hasn't even spent a whole year closing, not to mention his peripherals really aren't spectacular) to a setup role. The GM has a job to do as well, and that is to put the best team on the field. The only way I can see it being a real negative would be if you totally misled the player from the beginning and really had no intention of letting him close in the first place, which I don't think would be the case in this particular hypothetical. It can be a fine line I guess.

[goonys evil twin]

Oh, good, the thread is back. I just wanted to make an observation on the topic of filing a grievance. I am 99.9% sure Goony was correct. I don't think there would be anything in Dempster's contract promising him he will be the closer. Look at all the injuries from last year, what would happen in a bunch of starters went down and Dempster got pressed into service to start because he has prior experience doing that, would he file a grievance then? what if he starts to suck, can the Cubs take that job away from him? Sure they can, people get transferred in their jobs all the time. If Dempster didn't like it, he could quit and tell the Cubs to keep their money.

 

Is that really the type of reputation you want your organization to have. IT would have an impact on future FA signings. Right now, If I'm not mistaken, Hendry really appears to be a man of his word, for better or worse. Mistreating players, misleading players would get around through the fraternity. Hence why I don't want him to F over Walker (besides the fact his production for 2.5 million is an absolute steal.

 

But everything is fluid and I think the players realize that. If a situation arises where you are able to acquire a premier closer, I dont' think it would ruin your reputation by moving Dempster (who hasn't even spent a whole year closing, not to mention his peripherals really aren't spectacular) to a setup role. The GM has a job to do as well, and that is to put the best team on the field. The only way I can see it being a real negative would be if you totally misled the player from the beginning and really had no intention of letting him close in the first place, which I don't think would be the case in this particular hypothetical. It can be a fine line I guess.

 

I'm not sure which badger fan I'm responding to here.

 

I don't buy the "keep the reputation intact at the expense of the team" theory. Hendry has talked about that stuff for years, especially with the theory that Baker will talk free agents into coming here (and Dusty seems quite convinced half of baseball really wants to play for him). But every indication is he's going to trade Walker against his will. And he already went overboard in the diss Sammy ordeal. They let the whole Mercker/Alou/announcer thing get out of hand. I don't think signing a great reliever and bumping Dempster to set-up man is going to hurt their reputation anymore than any of these things did, if that's even an issue to beging with. I think most players would be excited to play for a team that's willing to keep getting better. As long as Hendry presents it well to Dempster, I can't see it as a problem.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Free Agents do come here because of Dusty and good clubhouse chemistry, e.g. Eyre.

 

I only hope that carries over to keeping Prior and Zambrano.

 

I can't imagine Dempster being a problem if moved to the setup role. Hendry could always ask him and see if he has a problem with it. If he does, he wouldn't chance pursuing a top notch closer.

 

This isn't going to happen anyway as Hendry has said all he wants is one more right handed arm in the pen (looks like howry is the guy) and said that he wasn't interested in ryan or wagner. he deliberately aimed to snag the 2nd tier FA relievers while other teams were dinking around trying to land the big fish (ryan and wagner). i don't agree with that, but it was shrewd, even if he did overpay for Eyre.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Free Agents do come here because of Dusty and good clubhouse chemistry, e.g. Eyre.

 

I only hope that carries over to keeping Prior and Zambrano.

 

Not to hijack the thread but...

 

Zambrano #'s and innings + Boras + Beckett $ = Crazy Huge Contract

[goonys evil twin]

Free Agents do come here because of Dusty and good clubhouse chemistry, e.g. Eyre.

 

I only hope that carries over to keeping Prior and Zambrano.

 

$11m had a lot to do with Eyre coming here. And I was thinking more about impact free agents, not middle relievers with sketchy career numbers.

 

If Brian Giles signs here because he really wanted to play for Dusty, or if Furcal signs here for the same or similar money that Atlanta offered because he wanted to play for Dusty, or if BJ Ryan signs here because he wanted to play for Dusty, then I'll start to listen. But there have been a lot of impact free agents in the market since Dusty came in, and none of them signed with the Cubs.

[CubfaninCA]

Not a good idea to reward someone who saved 33 out of 35 w/ a setup role after you signed them as a closer. Interesting that the only time people seem to get upset about players getting a supposed raw deal is when it's Todd Walker or Nomar.

[CuseCubFan69]

Free Agents do come here because of Dusty and good clubhouse chemistry, e.g. Eyre.

 

I only hope that carries over to keeping Prior and Zambrano.

 

I can't imagine Dempster being a problem if moved to the setup role. Hendry could always ask him and see if he has a problem with it. If he does, he wouldn't chance pursuing a top notch closer.

 

This isn't going to happen anyway as Hendry has said all he wants is one more right handed arm in the pen (looks like howry is the guy) and said that he wasn't interested in ryan or wagner. he deliberately aimed to snag the 2nd tier FA relievers while other teams were dinking around trying to land the big fish (ryan and wagner). i don't agree with that, but it was shrewd, even if he did overpay for Eyre.

 

Free agents go to Dusty because they know if they start to play poorly they still will get the benefit of doubt. I'm still waiting for Baker to get some of those impact players that will play no matter who their manager is.

[goonys evil twin]

Not a good idea to reward someone who saved 33 out of 35 w/ a setup role after you signed them as a closer. Interesting that the only time people seem to get upset about players getting a supposed raw deal is when it's Todd Walker or Nomar.

 

I don't believe Walker or Nomar got a raw deal, or are getting a raw deal. I just think the Cubs are making a mistake with them.

 

If they end up improving the trade with a Walker trade, I'll have no problem. That's part of the reason I really wanted that option picked up.