To Pie Or Not To Pie...

[CubsWin]

No, this isn't a thread about whether Moises Alou should toughen his hands a different way. Nor is it a thread about whether I should have a another slice of french silk.

 

Ken Rosenthals latest article on sportingnews.com got me thinking. If Pat Gillick really is considering trading Abreu, he must be doing so because Abreu is owed 30 mill over the next two seasons. He isn't going to give him away, but, in essence, this is a salary dump. Clearly, it is the only reason to trade Abreu. He isn't a clubhouse problem. He isn't a drunk. He isn't so old as to have serious decline in his production. The only reason to trade him is to get salary relief.

 

So given that any trade of Abreu is in essense a salary dump, here are the two questions for discussion in this thread:

 

1. Is it possible that Gillick will agree to a deal with the Cubs that doesn't include Felix Pie? Would a package of Jerome Williams, Corey Patterson, Rich Hill and/or others get it done? Clearly, the best of both worlds would be having Pie and Abreu on the same team in '07 assuming Pie is ready.

 

2. Is it in the best interest of the Cubs to trade away Felix Pie for a player who will be 32 before next season starts? Is it worth not having Pie, who could or could not be special, for the years that he is 22-28 years old and relatively inexpensive, in order to have a minimum of 2 guaranteed years of Bobby Abreu at the price of 30 million dollars?

 

Discuss...

[CubinNY]

No, this isn't a thread about whether Moises Alou should toughen his hands a different way. Nor is it a thread about whether I should have a another slice of french silk.

 

Ken Rosenthals latest article on sportingnews.com got me thinking. If Pat Gillick really is considering trading Abreu, he must be doing so because Abreu is owed 30 mill over the next two seasons. He isn't going to give him away, but, in essence, this is a salary dump. Clearly, it is the only reason to trade Abreu. He isn't a clubhouse problem. He isn't a drunk. He isn't so old as to have serious decline in his production. The only reason to trade him is to get salary relief.

 

So given that any trade of Abreu is in essense a salary dump, here are the two questions for discussion in this thread:

 

1. Is it possible that Gillick will agree to a deal with the Cubs that doesn't include Felix Pie? Would a package of Jerome Williams, Corey Patterson, Rich Hill and/or others get it done? Clearly, the best of both worlds would be having Pie and Abreu on the same team in '07 assuming Pie is ready.

 

2. Is it in the best interest of the Cubs to trade away Felix Pie for a player who will be 32 before next season starts? Is it worth not having Pie, who could or could not be special, for the years that he is 22-28 years old and relatively inexpensive, in order to have a minimum of 2 guaranteed years of Bobby Abreu at the price of 30 million dollars?

 

Discuss...

 

I think if the Cubs want Abreu they are going to have to give up Pie plus their best pitching prospect or Zambrano. I don't think the Cubs can get him for the likes of Hill, Patterson, or any other second tier prospect.

 

The luster of the Cubs minor league system is starting to wear off.

 

I would trade Pie in a package for any top 5 position player in the ML. Pie has only had 1/2 half of a season where he played really well and he is riding the pine in the Carribean right now with a low .200s BA. Pie has a lot of upside, but a season where he has medicore numbers at AAA or AA would do nothing to increase his value.

Edited November 21, 2005 by CubinNY

[don_kessinger_was_good]

I proposed this trade two weeks ago, in the Gillick thread, and I still like it:

 

Realistic trade: Jerome Williams, Roberto Novoa and Felix Pie for Bobby Abreu. Philly gets the #4 starter they need, middle relief depth which they need, and our best prospect. Two years down the road or so, they could be fielding an outfield of Michaels, Pie and Victorino, which could be awesome. They also get salary relief right now, helping to land a free agent starting pitcher, and have the money to replace Billy Wagner, who will likely leave.

 

From the Cubs' standpoint, you give up a nice, young starter in Williams, but who will likely be replaced by a veteran free agent signee; Novoa, who is not a major piece of the puzzle (and not as highly thought of by the Cubs as Michael Wuertz); and Pie, whose upside is where Abreu is already at. Like the Choi for Lee trade, you're trading future potential (Pie) for immediate results (Abreu), in this case the disparity being great enough that you must include Williams, too.

 

I think it is a fair trade from both team's perspective.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

[nolanwood]

I don't want Abreu if it costs us 15mil in salary this year + Pie, Williams, etc.

That would pretty much empty our pockets and screw us out of nice trading chips at the same time.

[CUBZ99]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

 

A career .300+ hitter, .400+ OBP and 900+ OPS and you don't want him? #-o

[RockTheIvy]

I'm all for obtaining Abreu. I think the trade proposed by DKWG is a good move. Then we trade Walker for Castillo, keep Cedeno at short, sign Bradley for CF:

 

Castillo

Murton

Lee

Abreu

Aram

Bradley

Barrett

Cedeno

 

cookin with grease!

[mg420]

i guess people didnt read the blurb about hendry turning away when other clubs inquire about pie or hill. they aint going anywhere and certainly not both for abreu. a silly trade proposal imo and one that hendry wouldnt consider for a second.

[Backtobanks]

i guess people didnt read the blurb about hendry turning away when other clubs inquire about pie or hill. they aint going anywhere and certainly not both for abreu. a silly trade proposal imo and one that hendry wouldnt consider for a second.

 

I agree with you although I still don't quite understand including Hill in this "untouchable" list. Pie isn't going anywhere, period.

[mg420]

i guess people didnt read the blurb about hendry turning away when other clubs inquire about pie or hill. they aint going anywhere and certainly not both for abreu. a silly trade proposal imo and one that hendry wouldnt consider for a second.

 

I agree with you although I still don't quite understand including Hill in this "untouchable" list. Pie isn't going anywhere, period.

 

he did lead all the minors in k's last year i believe (or maybe it was all lefties?). since he found his control he has dominated and he does have great stuff. he is 1 pitch away from being a very good starter in the majors imo. if he can work on a decent cutter or change, i can see him being a solid addition to the starting staff for years to come.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

 

A career .300+ hitter, .400+ OBP and 900+ OPS and you don't want him? #-o

 

He's going to be 32 next year. I'm not willing to trade our top prospects for someone who's about to hit the downhill of his career. I think he's definitely got a couple good/great seasons left, but if we're going to give away the cream of our farm system, let's at least get someone under the age of 30. Otherwise we just hurt ourselves in the future.

 

He can't catch the ball either. :wink: Yes, I know some fools gave him a gold glove.

[RynoRules]

I'm all for obtaining Abreu. I think the trade proposed by DKWG is a good move. Then we trade Walker for Castillo, keep Cedeno at short, sign Bradley for CF:

 

Castillo

Murton

Lee

Abreu

Aram

Bradley

Barrett

Cedeno

 

cookin with grease!

 

What he said.

[WindyCity]

1. Is it possible that Gillick will agree to a deal with the Cubs that doesn't include Felix Pie? Would a package of Jerome Williams, Corey Patterson, Rich Hill and/or others get it done? Clearly, the best of both worlds would be having Pie and Abreu on the same team in '07 assuming Pie is ready.

 

Yes, it is possible to put together a deal that doesn't include Pie -- folks often forget that the Cubs have another top outfield prospect that can be used in a trade.... Ryan Harvey. With a cannon arm in RF and 30-40 HR potential, Harvey would be very attractive to the Phils I would think (assuming they don't mind that he is 2-3 years away at best).

 

 

2. Is it in the best interest of the Cubs to trade away Felix Pie for a player who will be 32 before next season starts? Is it worth not having Pie, who could or could not be special, for the years that he is 22-28 years old and relatively inexpensive, in order to have a minimum of 2 guaranteed years of Bobby Abreu at the price of 30 million dollars?

 

No , not worth it for 2 years of Abreu. Now if the Marlins want to deal Cabrera, I would personally buy Felix a ticket to south Florida. :D

[mg420]

i think that either floyd or wilkerson will be the cubs right fielder next year. maybe a walker/nolasco/novoa/dopirak package would be enough to snag heilman & floyd. if the cubs can sign furcal, wilkerson can play cf instead of right. maybe cp, jvb, marmol & mitre for wilkerson?

[Wheelimus]

I don't give Pie up for anything, unless it nets us a young stud corner outfielder. And I'm not talking someone in their 30's.

 

Hill, now, I'd give him up in just about any good trade.

[USSoccer]

I'd give up Pie in any deal including Josh Beckett, and think long and hard about giving him up for Adam Dunn.

 

Beyond that, I'd offer Harvey or Dopirak as position players, and pretty much any minor league pitcher.

[Wheelimus]

Hehe, yup, Adam Dunn meets my criteria for a young stud corner outfielder who isn't in their 30's :D

[Mizzou]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

 

I've probably missed it, but based on your stance on a couple other players, I have to ask... who exactly DO you want?

[DivineBovine]

If Pie can get us a top caliber proven bat, then I'd trade him. He hasn't shown me he's a can't miss. All he really is now is a prospect with potential. And his K/BB ratio really does bother me. He could very easily be a flop, like so many other top tier Cub offensive prospects in recent years.

 

If the deal was right for Abreu, I'd do it and not think twice about it.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

 

I've probably missed it, but based on your stance on a couple other players, I have to ask... who exactly DO you want?

 

Adam Dunn

Wilkerson

Bradley

Marcus Giles

Coco Crisp

 

pitchers:

zito/burnett/beckett (i.e. another front line starter)

howry

 

I realize we're probably not going to get any of these players.

[mg420]

If Pie can get us a top caliber proven bat, then I'd trade him. He hasn't shown me he's a can't miss. All he really is now is a prospect with potential. And his K/BB ratio really does bother me. He could very easily be a flop, like so many other top tier Cub offensive prospects in recent years.

 

If the deal was right for Abreu, I'd do it and not think twice about it.

 

there is no such thing as a cant miss imo. his .903 ops in AA at 20 years old along with his gold glove fielding however is indicative of very good (if not great) things to come if he can improve his plate discipline.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If Pie can get us a top caliber proven bat, then I'd trade him. He hasn't shown me he's a can't miss. All he really is now is a prospect with potential. And his K/BB ratio really does bother me. He could very easily be a flop, like so many other top tier Cub offensive prospects in recent years.

 

If the deal was right for Abreu, I'd do it and not think twice about it.

 

there is no such thing as a cant miss imo. his .903 ops in AA at 20 years old along with his gold glove fielding however is indicative of very good (if not great) things to come if he can improve his plate discipline.

 

how many ABs did he have last year?

[mg420]

If Pie can get us a top caliber proven bat, then I'd trade him. He hasn't shown me he's a can't miss. All he really is now is a prospect with potential. And his K/BB ratio really does bother me. He could very easily be a flop, like so many other top tier Cub offensive prospects in recent years.

 

If the deal was right for Abreu, I'd do it and not think twice about it.

 

there is no such thing as a cant miss imo. his .903 ops in AA at 20 years old along with his gold glove fielding however is indicative of very good (if not great) things to come if he can improve his plate discipline.

 

how many ABs did he have last year?

 

240. not alot i know but he is very young for aa and put up some great #'s for his 1st time around. with pie, ep, marshall, gahllager, marmol, pinto & nolasco (unless they start at AAA), the double a team looks to be a very exciting one imo.

[woodprior04]

What about instead of Pie, we use Murton to get either Abreu or Dunn. With the way Murton performed for the short time he was up last year, his value is probably as high as it's going to be for a while. Would Murton, Hill and Williams get either Dunn or Abreu? If it did, we could then sign someone like Jones or Sanders for the other outfield spot, and keep Patterson in center or trade for Pierre.

[CubinNY]

What about instead of Pie, we use Murton to get either Abreu or Dunn. With the way Murton performed for the short time he was up last year, his value is probably as high as it's going to be for a while. Would Murton, Hill and Williams get either Dunn or Abreu? If it did, we could then sign someone like Jones or Sanders for the other outfield spot, and keep Patterson in center or trade for Pierre.

 

IMO, if Hendry finds the right deal for a corner outfielder with power and OBP he should trade Pie. Pie might be great some day but more than likely he won't. Right now he is the best the Cubs have to offer.

 

Where Pie comes from in the DR they have a saying, "You don't walk off the island." Pie may never develp plate discipline. He certianly isn't going gang busters this winter.