Cardinals Bow Out Of Giles Race, Enter Dotel's

[nilodnayr]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

 

I don't know if you can honestly be satisfied with "he'll figure something out." Just read this thread - that's what we thought last year with our LF situation. Quality GM or not, the Cubs and Cardinals both share quite the black hole in the outfield this offseason. I don't really understand why you're "working on pitching" either, I don't see any reason to dump Marquis, and finding a fifth starter shouldn't be so overwhelming it takes your eyes off the prize.

 

Who thought that? Everyone knew going into last year that we would have a below average outfield but a healthy infield would more than make up for the OFs offensive deficiency and healthy pitching would carry us deep in the playoffs. Unfortunately neither was healthy. Even without corner OFs the cards still have an elite middle of the order with Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds. Lee, Giles, ARAM

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

 

I don't know if you can honestly be satisfied with "he'll figure something out." Just read this thread - that's what we thought last year with our LF situation. Quality GM or not, the Cubs and Cardinals both share quite the black hole in the outfield this offseason. I don't really understand why you're "working on pitching" either, I don't see any reason to dump Marquis, and finding a fifth starter shouldn't be so overwhelming it takes your eyes off the prize.

 

I understand your post but Jocketty has proven time and again that he caan get it done. Remember the Cards are getting a big bat during the offseason - Scott Rolan. I would be upset if we had 30m to play with but we don't. The Cards can't have everything and I accept that.

 

Hendry on the other hand...

 

1) Wastes money on players that don't make a difference.

 

2) Spends or will spend money on positions that have viable in house alternatives.

 

3) Doesn't seem to grasp how perfect of a fit Giles would be. However he might have something else up his sleave - we'll see.

 

4) Hasn't fired Dusty.

 

Seriously, how many non-Cubs fans like Dusty and Hendry? I don't hear many people outside of Chicago and SF praising either of them.

 

It seems like the objective opinion on both Dusty and Hendry is negative.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Seriously, how many non-Cubs fans like Dusty and Hendry? I don't hear many people outside of Chicago and SF praising either of them.

 

It seems like the objective opinion on both Dusty and Hendry is negative.

 

I don't like Dusty - I love him! I hope he's with the Cubs for a long, long time. :wink:

 

Honestly, I think Dusty's star has fallin a lot more then Hendry's. Really Hendry has had only one really bad offseason with last season. This one has had a bad start but jury is still out on it.

[Careless]

I certainly don't take anything from baseball and apply it to real life, it's a game. I just think when you're breaking down financial statistics, you need to find something to do outside of the house.

why are you in the transactions forum? Finances are intimately and inextricably connected with the possibilities for trades and signings. You can't pretend they don't exist and discuss transactions in any way resembling reality. Hendry has only so much money to work with, and while that was a lot at the start of the offseason, after he signs furcal it will be getting low.

[TXCubsFan]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

 

I don't know if you can honestly be satisfied with "he'll figure something out." Just read this thread - that's what we thought last year with our LF situation. Quality GM or not, the Cubs and Cardinals both share quite the black hole in the outfield this offseason. I don't really understand why you're "working on pitching" either, I don't see any reason to dump Marquis, and finding a fifth starter shouldn't be so overwhelming it takes your eyes off the prize.

 

I understand your post but Jocketty has proven time and again that he caan get it done. Remember the Cards are getting a big bat during the offseason - Scott Rolan. I would be upset if we had 30m to play with but we don't. The Cards can't have everything and I accept that.

 

Hendry on the other hand...

 

1) Wastes money on players that don't make a difference.

 

2) Spends or will spend money on positions that have viable in house alternatives.

 

3) Doesn't seem to grasp how perfect of a fit Giles would be. However he might have something else up his sleave - we'll see.

 

4) Hasn't fired Dusty.

 

Seriously, how many non-Cubs fans like Dusty and Hendry? I don't hear many people outside of Chicago and SF praising either of them.

 

It seems like the objective opinion on both Dusty and Hendry is negative.

 

What many on this board don't seem to understand is that Rusch and Neifi! are hedges against Wood being relegating to the bullpen and Furcal returning to the Braves. Hendry has been terrific in making trades, and he has enough pieces where he can protect himself against having to trade valued prospects (e.g., Hill, Pie) to put a major league team on the field.

 

Neifi! isn't great offensively, but he might be enough in the first couple of months of 2006 while Hendry works a trade for a good 2B, if needed.

[Careless]

As for the OP, A) I don't know nearly as much about the cardinals situation as I do the cubs. I (and, I suspect, most of us) would be arguing from positions of severe ignorance (instead of our usual moderate ignorance). B) the cardinals have a history of success under their management. I'd be much more willing to trust in hendry if we didn't appear to be on a negative trajectory.

 

 

What many on this board don't seem to understand is that Rusch and Neifi! are hedges against Wood being relegating to the bullpen and Furcal returning to the Braves. Hendry has been terrific in making trades, and he has enough pieces where he can protect himself against having to trade valued prospects (e.g., Hill, Pie) to put a major league team on the field.

 

Neifi! isn't great offensively, but he might be enough in the first couple of months of 2006 while Hendry works a trade for a good 2B, if needed.

When you have walker and cedeno, this is stupid.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

What many on this board don't seem to understand is that Rusch and Neifi! are hedges against Wood being relegating to the bullpen and Furcal returning to the Braves. Hendry has been terrific in making trades, and he has enough pieces where he can protect himself against having to trade valued prospects (e.g., Hill, Pie) to put a major league team on the field.

 

Neifi! isn't great offensively, but he might be enough in the first couple of months of 2006 while Hendry works a trade for a good 2B, if needed.

 

Why was he in such a hurry to sign those scrubs? Couldn't he have waited to see if he signed Furcal? Why did he give plan B bench guys so much money? Going in to a season with Nefei as a starter can not be an option.

 

EDIT: I hope I don't sound like a troll. I'm just a nerd who likes chatting about baseball.

[fearthecubs]

What many on this board don't seem to understand is that Rusch and Neifi! are hedges against Wood being relegating to the bullpen and Furcal returning to the Braves. Hendry has been terrific in making trades, and he has enough pieces where he can protect himself against having to trade valued prospects (e.g., Hill, Pie) to put a major league team on the field.

 

Neifi! isn't great offensively, but he might be enough in the first couple of months of 2006 while Hendry works a trade for a good 2B, if needed.

 

Why was he in such a hurry to sign those scrubs? Couldn't he have waited to see if he signed Furcal? Why did he give plan B bench guys so much money? Going in to a season with Nefei as a starter can not be an option.

 

EDIT: I hope I don't sound like a troll. I'm just a nerd who likes chatting about baseball.

 

Who else is available at SS to sign? I suppose you could trade for a Julio Lugo or Alex (Not S) Gonzalez to backup Furcal. And if we don't sign Furcal, that's one more shot to our depth chart at SS. I think 2/4 would have been a little better, but like I said, I don't understand why I should care about it. Why does it affect me as a Cub fan if they overspend on Rusch and Perez? They like the players, they want to keep them. Maybe the players even play harder seeing the loyalty from their team. As long as it doesn't impact another signing, I just see it as a sign of team loyalty and dedication to not bother with a bidding war and just get it overwith.

[RynoRules]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

[fearthecubs]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

 

I agree with ya again. Goes back to what I said...scouting and development, as a franchise we're subpar. Especially for a team of our clout and payroll.

[Keener98]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

 

There has been nobody in this thread that has said Jocketty is head and shoulders above Hendry. The question was brought up as how can Cards fans "trust Jocketty to find something" and me along with I believe some others are just saying they can trust their GM to find something because he has done it in the past with players nobody else wanted. You can say Larussa is the difference maker to a point, but Jocketty is the person that obviously seen something in players such as Eckstein, Rodriguez, Nunez to bring them in when nobody else wanted them. Yes it helps to have a manager that might put these players in a position to succeed, but Jocketty is the one evaluating the talent.

[badger1679666666]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

 

Yea well, if Hendry had fired Baker and hired someone like Girardi I'm sure EVERYONE on this board including his harshest critics (whom I don't agree with) would certainly offer him a great deal more of latitude in his decision making because they realize the bullpenn is going to be misused, Neifi wouldnt be starting regardless of how much he's making etc.

 

But Hendry is loyal to a fault, and it's gonna sink him.

[RynoRules]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

 

There has been nobody in this thread that has said Jocketty is head and shoulders above Hendry. The question was brought up as how can Cards fans "trust Jocketty to find something" and me along with I believe some others are just saying they can trust their GM to find something because he has done it in the past with players nobody else wanted. You can say Larussa is the difference maker to a point, but Jocketty is the person that obviously seen something in players such as Eckstein, Rodriguez, Nunez to bring them in when nobody else wanted them. Yes it helps to have a manager that might put these players in a position to succeed, but Jocketty is the one evaluating the talent.

 

I find that a completely self-serving analysis based on the history of those players. In other words, nothing they had done previously indicated that they would play as well as they did. Sometimes luck is involved, and Jocketty and co. have been lucky with some of those players. By contrast, IMO, Hendry has taken fliers on similar types and it hasn't gone well. That, at least in part, is Dusty's resposnibility as well.

[RynoRules]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

 

Yea well, if Hendry had fired Baker and hired someone like Girardi I'm sure EVERYONE on this board including his harshest critics (whom I don't agree with) would certainly offer him a great deal more of latitude in his decision making because they realize the bullpenn is going to be misused, Neifi wouldnt be starting regardless of how much he's making etc.

 

But Hendry is loyal to a fault, and it's gonna sink him.

 

I sorta saw this coming, and I agree that JH has (at least publicly) afforded the Dust Man too much latitude and deference. I wanted Girardi probably more than anyone, but after this year's performance and the lack of rumbling re Dusty's future, I became resigned to him being here. I have just accepted it and moved on. I also think JH sees Dusty as "his guy", and therefore may feel a certain sense of obligation to keep him on longer than might be prudent. Just some thoughts in general.

 

Back on topic: I think Jocketty will have to get lucky again with this year's FA crop being as weak as it is.

[CubfaninCA]

I guess Jocketty just isn't "creative." Isn't saying he doesn't have money just an excuse??

 

Good luck getting production from Eckstein, LF, RF, and catcher, and having a healthy Grudz. The Cards hitting could fall off big time..

[radarluv1]

I guess Jocketty just isn't "creative." Isn't saying he doesn't have money just an excuse??

 

Good luck getting production from Eckstein, LF, RF, and catcher, and having a healthy Grudz. The Cards hitting could fall off big time..

 

i remember alot of us (me, too) saying that last year. they managad just fine.

[erik316wttn]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Don't be so sure about that until we have a moment where we're close to getting to the World Series and don't blow it in a most agonizing fashion.

 

This is just one of those things that will get our hopes up, and then we'll all be bummed out when those hopes are crushed. It's called "Being a Cub fan".

[CubfaninCA]

I guess Jocketty just isn't "creative." Isn't saying he doesn't have money just an excuse??

 

Good luck getting production from Eckstein, LF, RF, and catcher, and having a healthy Grudz. The Cards hitting could fall off big time..

 

i remember alot of us (me, too) saying that last year. they managad just fine.

 

The Cubs didn't have near their pitching or luck.

[CP_414]

I wouldn't count the Cards out of the running for Giles just yet. I do believe, as I have for a few weeks now, that Giles most likley destination is Yankee Stadium, but it's far from a done deal. If true, this is good news (the Giles part anyway).

 

Don't you just know that if they sign Dotel he will become the setup man he was in Houston? Seems like a typical Cardinal situation.

[Keener98]

For those of you who think Jocketty is head-and-shoulders above Hendry, remember that he is made to look better by the guy in the dugout. Please don't tell me you were all pining for the Ecksteins, Nunezs, Taguchis, and Rodriguezs of the world. LaRussa is the difference maker - he knows how to handle what is given to him.

 

There has been nobody in this thread that has said Jocketty is head and shoulders above Hendry. The question was brought up as how can Cards fans "trust Jocketty to find something" and me along with I believe some others are just saying they can trust their GM to find something because he has done it in the past with players nobody else wanted. You can say Larussa is the difference maker to a point, but Jocketty is the person that obviously seen something in players such as Eckstein, Rodriguez, Nunez to bring them in when nobody else wanted them. Yes it helps to have a manager that might put these players in a position to succeed, but Jocketty is the one evaluating the talent.

 

I find that a completely self-serving analysis based on the history of those players. In other words, nothing they had done previously indicated that they would play as well as they did. Sometimes luck is involved, and Jocketty and co. have been lucky with some of those players. By contrast, IMO, Hendry has taken fliers on similar types and it hasn't gone well. That, at least in part, is Dusty's resposnibility as well.

 

First off, I dont see what is so self-serving about my post but oh well I guess. Secondly, while luck definatly is involved, why couldnt it have also just been that Jocketty seen something in these players that would fit in well with his team. Where as maybe Hendry tried getting similar players and it hasnt gone as well, maybe, just maybe that could be Hendry seen something in these players but was wrong about them. Which would go right back to talent evaluation mainly among position players. Isnt it a possibility that the reason we havent been able to develop any position players, and the "fliers" that Hendry has taken a chance on that havent worked out as well as the Cards, comes down to the fact that maybe Hendry just isnt a good postion player talent evaluater? I am not saying Hendry is a terrible GM in no means, but some of the types of players he keeps signing or re-signins really has to make you wonder about his position player talent evaluation ability.

[RynoRules]

Fliers are fliers. Luck is luck. There was no way - based on objective statistics - for Jocketty to have known that the scrubs he signed would be better than the ones Hendry signed. Scrubs are scrubs (just ask Bruce Levine), and since the Cards' scrubs outplayed the Cubs scrubs' by a mile, I look into the dugout for an explanation.

[RynoRules]

Just to continue my mini-rant, here are Nunez's career stats. They are worse than Neifi's, that is, until he became a Cardinal:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/n/nunezab01.shtml

 

Here's some more fun. So Taguchi, who according to baseballreference.com, compares favorably with the legendary Bruce Aven and the immortal Johnny Dickshot (couldn't help but point that out):

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tagucso01.shtml

 

And finally, exhibit C, Mr. Eckstein, who prior to this past season, posted an OBP over .340 just once:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/eckstda01.shtml

 

I say Jocketty is lucky. Nunez could easily have been Macias; Eckstein could easily have been avg.; and did anyone else realize just how old Taguchi is?!

[Keener98]

Just to continue my mini-rant, here are Nunez's career stats. They are worse than Neifi's, that is, until he became a Cardinal:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/n/nunezab01.shtml

 

Here's some more fun. So Taguchi, who according to baseballreference.com, compares favorably with the legendary Bruce Aven and the immortal Johnny Dickshot (couldn't help but point that out):

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tagucso01.shtml

 

And finally, exhibit C, Mr. Eckstein, who prior to this past season, posted an OBP over .340 just once:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/eckstda01.shtml

 

I say Jocketty is lucky. Nunez could easily have been Macias; Eckstein could easily have been avg.; and did anyone else realize just how old Taguchi is?!

 

I understand what you are saying completely, however I think there has to come a point and time where you start ruling out it was all luck when it continues to happen over and over and over again.

[Lefty]

[\quote]

 

I haven't been around these boards lately due to the incessant sniping at Hendry. I can understand the loathing towards Baker, but why Hendry? Is it just 'popular' around here to badmouth him or what?

 

Hendry misses the big picture, and that bothers some of us more than others, and some of us are more intellectually honest than others.

 

Signing middle relievers to long and expensive contracts makes no economic sense. You all know the arguments by now. It's not like the Cubs have unlimited payroll.

 

He pays way more than minimum to players like Perez and Macias and Blanco. Hendry perceives a lack of available mediocre talent. In all his talk about depth he doesn't understand that great frontline talent is immeasurably more important.

 

Yeah, Baker is awful. But when Hendry signs Macias and Perez, and lets Baker carry 12 pitchers, well he is an "enabler."

 

Some poster has a great sig. "Jim Hendry: Overpaying for mediocrity since 2004." That sums it up very nicely.

[USSoccer]

[\quote]

 

I haven't been around these boards lately due to the incessant sniping at Hendry. I can understand the loathing towards Baker, but why Hendry? Is it just 'popular' around here to badmouth him or what?

 

Hendry misses the big picture, and that bothers some of us more than others, and some of us are more intellectually honest than others.

 

Signing middle relievers to long and expensive contracts makes no economic sense. You all know the arguments by now. It's not like the Cubs have unlimited payroll.

 

He pays way more than minimum to players like Perez and Macias and Blanco. Hendry perceives a lack of available mediocre talent. In all his talk about depth he doesn't understand that great frontline talent is immeasurably more important.

 

Yeah, Baker is awful. But when Hendry signs Macias and Perez, and lets Baker carry 12 pitchers, well he is an "enabler."

 

Some poster has a great sig. "Jim Hendry: Overpaying for mediocrity since 2004." That sums it up very nicely.

 

8)