Guillen, Cox named Managers of the Year

[Derwood]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2218718

 

Wrong and also wrong

Edited November 9, 2005 by Derwood

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I can live with those choices.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I felt Cox deserves it. I hate Guillen, but he deserved it as much as anyone in the AL.

[Chris]

What's wrong with Cox winning the award?

[daske17]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2218718

 

Wrong and also wrong

 

I don't see why. They both did pretty amazing things with their teams this year. Who would you have chosen?

[Derwood]

What's wrong with Cox winning the award?

 

When you have an endless pool of minor league talent to fill your lineup holes with, it doesn't take a genius to win. His postseason managing, however, is atrocius.

 

I can accept Guillen more, simply because he really made no managerial mistakes the entire post season.

 

In the NL, I might have considered Frank Robinson or Ned Yost.

 

In the AL, Mike Scoscia (sp?) or Eric Wedge.

[rocket]

ned yost doesn't have an endless supply of minor league talent to fill his holes?

 

and frank robinson? are you serious?

[Andy]

I would've picked Wedge in the AL, but Cox is the right choice in the NL.

[Mizzou]

What's wrong with Cox winning the award?

 

Nothing. There's nothing wrong with Guillen winning it either. Both were the right choices, IMO.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

What's wrong with Cox winning the award?

 

When you have an endless pool of minor league talent to fill your lineup holes with, it doesn't take a genius to win. His postseason managing, however, is atrocius.

 

I can accept Guillen more, simply because he really made no managerial mistakes the entire post season.

 

In the NL, I might have considered Frank Robinson or Ned Yost.

 

In the AL, Mike Scoscia (sp?) or Eric Wedge.

 

You do know that these awards are voted on prior to the post season don't you?

[Backtobanks]

I root against the White Sox and have for 50 years, but when you look at results Ozzie deserved it and Kenny Williams should have won Exec. of the Year. They were in 1st place all year and ended up with 99 wins with a team that wasn't favored to win the Division.

[TB_11]

When you have an endless pool of minor league talent to fill your lineup holes with, it doesn't take a genius to win. His postseason managing, however, is atrocius.

 

But it does take a good manager to recognize talent that hasn't performed at the major league level and be patient enough to allow it to develop.

[bc2k]

I can't argue with either.

 

Not many publications picked the Sox to win the division, in fact, many had them as low as 4th place. Based on Guillen's successful smartball philosophy leading his team to the most wins in the league, Guillen is the obvious choice for AL Manager of the Year.

 

Wedge's Indians had a great second half, but they were expected by many publications to finish in first, and definately higher than Chicago. Also, in the second half, his Indians were swept twice in Jacobs Field by the Sox.

 

I don't see a better choice in the NL than Bobby Cox. His Braves looked to be dead at one point, but his team regrouped and won the division. Who were the other division winning teams? The Pads and the Cards. Bochy's team barely finished over .500, so he can't be considered.

 

An argument can be made that LaRussa should have won, being as his team won the most games in the NL and AL, and overcame some injuries too.

 

LaRussa or Cox wouldn't have been fine choices.

[SouthSideRyan]

Based on Guillen's successful smartball philosophy

 

KILL ME NOW.

[Andy]

Based on Guillen's successful smartball philosophy

 

KILL ME NOW.

If you want to give Ozzie MOY, fine. He's deserving, that's probably not arguable.

 

But the whole smartball is crap. The Sox won because their entire pitching staff basically had the years of their lives and the Sox were one of the most homer-happy teams in the AL, with seven (SEVEN) 15-HR hitters in their lineup.

 

Was Guillen great this year? Yes. Was it "smartball" that got them there? Absolutely not.

 

And thanks for the laugh, Ryan. :lol:

[bc2k]

Based on Guillen's successful smartball philosophy

 

KILL ME NOW.

If you want to give Ozzie MOY, fine. He's deserving, that's probably not arguable.

 

But the whole smartball is crap. The Sox won because their entire pitching staff basically had the years of their lives and the Sox were one of the most homer-happy teams in the AL, with seven (SEVEN) 15-HR hitters in their lineup.

 

Was Guillen great this year? Yes. Was it "smartball" that got them there? Absolutely not.

 

And thanks for the laugh, Ryan. :lol:

 

 

Smartball is definately what won them the division and the World Series. Their team home run total was impressive, but remember that the Sox offense was by far the worst part of the team all year. They certainly didn't have the ability to outmash teams in a home run, doubles contest. In 2005, the Sox double-digit scoring was far less than in 2004, when they relied on the home run/big inning and didn't have Podsednik and Iguchi playing smallball.

 

Those two players were so good at playing smallball, that the entire team's philosophy changed for 2005. Ozzie had told Ken Williams since he was hired, that he wanted a balanced team like his World Champion Marlins, with a Pierre and Castillo-like top of the order, air-tight defense and five quality starting pitchers who can win in the postseason.

 

With the manpower in place for 2005, Ozzie was able to implement his smallball philosophy on the team. Part of that philosophy was playing for one run and the lead in the first inning.

 

You're correct in giving their pitching a lot of the credit, because that is the team's strength. But as far as hitting, smallball definately played a large part in the Sox's and Ozzie Guillen's success.

 

This is how I would like to see the Cubs 2006 team constructed. We need men who can play smallball in the top 2 spots like Pods and Iguchi, at least two more quality bullpen arms, and possibly a new pitching coach (Oscar Acosta, anyone?). Assuming all five are healthy, our starting pitching is good enough.

 

1 Pierre CF

2 Furcal SS

3 Lee 1B

4 Ramirez 3B

5 Encarnacion-type RF

6 Barrett C

7 Murton LF

8 Cedeno 2B

 

Hendry has a lot of money to work with this offseason, and trading Walker would free up more. I think this lineup would also allow him to acquire a decent bullpen pitcher or two. With Furcal and Cedeno starting, the bench is improved by pushing Neifi to the bench. Though I wish he were signed for less money, Neifi does provide a nice safety net if Cedeno struggles.

[SouthSideRyan]

Seriously, First street in Champaign, the big house in between John and Green.

 

I'll pay for the bullet and gun.

Edited November 10, 2005 by SouthSideRyan

[SouthSideRyan]

"SMARTBALL" resulted in the brilliant White Sox runners getting thrown out stealing 33% of the time.

 

"SMARTBALL" resulted in the brilliant White Sox GO TEAM GO offense scoring 124 runs less than they did the year before.

 

The Sox pitching allowed 185 runs fewer than they did in '04. That's why they won. It had nothing to do with giving away outs for free or moronic team slogans spouted off by an incomprehensive jagoff.

[David]

Can we put this to rest, once and for all? PITCHING was what drove the White Sox to success this year. Their offense had nothing to do with it. It was a mediocre offense. Far worse than the 2004 offense. Their pitchers were great and it was that simple.

 

Watch that pitching regress to 2004 levels and see how many games they win with "smart-ball."

 

As for the topic of this thread, Guillen and Cox were fine choices.

[bc2k]

"SMARTBALL" resulted in the brilliant White Sox runners getting thrown out stealing 33% of the time.

 

"SMARTBALL" resulted in the brilliant White Sox GO TEAM GO offense scoring 124 runs less than they did the year before.

 

The Sox pitching allowed 185 runs fewer than they did in '04. That's why they won. It had nothing to do with giving away outs for free or moronic team slogans spouted off by an incomprehensive jagoff.

 

Nobody is saying that the pitching wasn't much better in 2005 than it was in 2004. That certainly was necessary to accomplish what they did. But if you were to put the Sox's 2004 offense on the 2005 team, I don't think they win the division, let alone the World Series. I say this because the 2005 offense was much more consistent from night to night than 2004's higher-scoring offense that was often all-or-nothing.

[Andy]

"SMARTBALL" resulted in the brilliant White Sox runners getting thrown out stealing 33% of the time.

 

"SMARTBALL" resulted in the brilliant White Sox GO TEAM GO offense scoring 124 runs less than they did the year before.

 

The Sox pitching allowed 185 runs fewer than they did in '04. That's why they won. It had nothing to do with giving away outs for free or moronic team slogans spouted off by an incomprehensive jagoff.

 

Nobody is saying that the pitching wasn't much better in 2005 than it was in 2004. That certainly was necessary to accomplish what they did. But if you were to put the Sox's 2004 offense on the 2005 team, I don't think they win the division, let alone the World Series. I say this because the 2005 offense was much more consistent from night to night than 2004's higher-scoring offense that was often all-or-nothing.

Didn't the White Sox win like fifteen 1-0 games this year?

 

The only way the 2005 offense was consistent was in their mediocrity.

 

edit - The Sox won 17 games this year in which they scored 2 runs or fewer. If they end up going 10-7 in those games rather than 17-0, they're not in the playoffs.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah but their one run record was so much better this year cause of SMARTBALL!!!

 

No wait, they were only slightly better after putting up a very good 28-18 record in one run games last year.

 

Well, the '04 Sox probably blew out way more teams than '05. No wait, that record isnt' very far apart either from year to year...

 

Hmmmm still looking for anything more than anecdotal evidence.

 

EDIT: Interesting tidbit, the lumbering, can't play smallball '04 team had 5 more sacrifices than the gogo '05 team.

[bc2k]

Yeah but their one run record was so much better this year cause of SMARTBALL!!!

 

No wait, they were only slightly better after putting up a very good 28-18 record in one run games last year.

 

Well, the '04 Sox probably blew out way more teams than '05. No wait, that record isnt' very far apart either from year to year...

 

Hmmmm still looking for anything more than anecdotal evidence.

 

EDIT: Interesting tidbit, the lumbering, can't play smallball '04 team had 5 more sacrifices than the gogo '05 team.

 

It's one of those times when numbers are thrown out the window. I stand by my statement that if you put the 2004 offense on the 2005 team, they don't win the division, and would choke in the playoffs.

 

Scott Podsednik and Tadahito Iguchi drastically improve the White Sox, no matter what the numbers report.

 

Did you watch Game 3 of the World Series? The plate patience of the 2005 team was the antithesis of the 2004 team.

[SouthSideRyan]

Ahhh plate patience.

 

435 walks for '05 Sox

 

499 walks for '04 Sox.

[Andy]

Yeah, there's absolutely no metric by which the Sox were better because of "smart ball".