Keep Your Eyes/Ears on Pat Gillick Starting This Week

[SAMMYWHO]

What about David Kelton? His natural position is third. We have no use for him. What do you all think we could do in a trade that involved him?

[JeffH]

Kelton is a free agent. He's gone.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Prior most certainly is. Murton spent about the same time in each of the two systems(including his MLB time), and he had his greatest success in our system too.

 

What?! He spent less than a season in the minors. All he did was go through the paces. He was MLB ready out of college. I guess those 9 games in the minors "developed" him.

 

Murton spent little over 1 season in our system to get to the major league club.

 

So the Cubs get no credit for targeting players that need less development?

 

no, they get credit. the scouts get a nice pat on the back. good job. but they didn't "develop" that talent. they just took what was already there.

 

Identifying and developing talent are part of the system. In evaluating the system as a whole, like was being done in the original post, why wouldn't you include Murton and Prior?

 

i include murton and prior in the cubs organization, but not in the farm system, as we didn't have much to do with developing Prior or Murton. I use the word "developing" not "identifying." It was no big secret Prior was going to be a stud. Our farm system should be credited with doing the obvious and selecting Prior 2nd overall in the '01 draft?

 

murton seems to be a last minute throw in to the Nomar deal, not someone we scouted. it's almost dumb luck that we got him. JH's magic 8 ball is paying off. :lol:

 

our farm system isn't worthless. we identified and developed Zambrano (who spent around 3 full seasons in our system before coming to Wrigley). nice work. Z is a STUD.

 

however, we don't have a ton of great prospects, which confounds me, considering how much time we spent losing in the last 10 years and a notable lack of decent position players reaching the majors (who actually contribute).

 

as far as willis goes... if we're going to include identifying talent in the discussion, we can also blame the farm system for letting him go for Clement. if they had correctly identified his talent, as evidenced by their hands on experience developing him, we would never have let him go (his age makes no difference). willis is at most a testament to our development skills and a slap in the face to our ability to identify talent.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Realistic trade: Jerome Williams, Roberto Novoa and Felix Pie for Bobby Abreu. Philly gets the #4 starter they need, middle relief depth which they need, and our best prospect. Two years down the road or so, they could be fielding an outfield of Michaels, Pie and Victorino, which could be awesome. They also get salary relief right now, helping to land a free agent starting pitcher, and have the money to replace Billy Wagner, who will likely leave.

 

From the Cubs' standpoint, you give up a nice, young starter in Williams, but who will likely be replaced by a veteran free agent signee; Novoa, who is not a major piece of the puzzle (and not as highly thought of by the Cubs as Michael Wuertz); and Pie, whose upside is where Abreu is already at. Like the Choi for Lee trade, you're trading future potential (Pie) for immediate results (Abreu), in this case the disparity being great enough that you must include Williams, too.

 

I think it is a fair trade from both team's perspective.

 

Giving up Pie for Abreu, who's leaving his prime, wouldn't be sound. I'd try some other avenue short of giving him up.

 

You've got to give value to get value. Again--Pie's ceiling, is where Abreu is already at. The Cubs desperately need a bat like Abreu right NOW, they can't wait three years to see if Pie gets to that point himself. You can argue you don't want to make that tradeoff, but that gets you right back to Brian Giles again, and I'm not confident he'll be a Cub. If you can make the Abreu trade, I think you must. If Pie turns out as good as Abreu, but Abreu helps you get to the World Series in the next year or two, then that is a tradeoff I think most Cub fans would be willing to make at this point, self included.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

What do you do for CF then Don?

 

Plenty of options there. I think it is important to nail down Furcal first, if that is Hendry's intent, so the leadoff hitter thing is resolved. That means the CF option no longer must be a leadoff man, opening up additional possibilities.

 

There are the obvious choices: sign Kenny Lofton, trade for Milton Bradley, trade for Mike Cameron, trade for Juan Pierre. But my favorite choice would be a trade with Cleveland. How about:

 

Walker + Rich Hill + Ricky Nolasco for Grady Sizemore and Rafael Betancourt? Or if that is a bit too rich for Cleveland, substitute Coco Crisp for Sizemore. Walker is expendable, Hill doesn't fit in the Cubs' rotation plans if they are going to sign a free agent like Burnett or Millwood, and Nolasco is a promising prospect, but still, a prospect. Cleveland solves their need for a 1B/2B option that can hit, they get a young starter to plug into their rotation (or use in the bullpen) in Hill, and they get the free option on Nolasco, who would likely pitch AAA for them in '06.

 

Murton, Sizemore and Abreu in the OF, with Furcal and Cedeno up the middle, I really like that.... 8)

[CuseCubFan69]

What do you do for CF then Don?

 

Plenty of options there. I think it is important to nail down Furcal first, if that is Hendry's intent, so the leadoff hitter thing is resolved. That means the CF option no longer must be a leadoff man, opening up additional possibilities.

 

There are the obvious choices: sign Kenny Lofton, trade for Milton Bradley, trade for Mike Cameron, trade for Juan Pierre. But my favorite choice would be a trade with Cleveland. How about:

 

Walker + Rich Hill + Ricky Nolasco for Grady Sizemore and Rafael Betancourt? Or if that is a bit too rich for Cleveland, substitute Coco Crisp for Sizemore. Walker is expendable, Hill doesn't fit in the Cubs' rotation plans if they are going to sign a free agent like Burnett or Millwood, and Nolasco is a promising prospect, but still, a prospect. Cleveland solves their need for a 1B/2B option that can hit, they get a young starter to plug into their rotation (or use in the bullpen) in Hill, and they get the free option on Nolasco, who would likely pitch AAA for them in '06.

 

Murton, Sizemore and Abreu in the OF, with Furcal and Cedeno up the middle, I really like that.... 8)

 

Do the Indians have that much depth in the OF that they would consider trading Sizemore?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

As discussed in the Walker thread, Sizemore isn't going anywhere. He's about as available as David Wright. Crisp on the other hand, has been involved in past trade rumors, and would be an attractive candidate to play CF.

[jmajew]

Murton was the reason the Cubs made that deal. They were just gonna trade for Orlando Cabrera.

[CubfaninCA]

Murton was the reason the Cubs made that deal. They were just gonna trade for Orlando Cabrera.

 

Haven't heard this before?? Some like to portrary Murton as a mere throw-in. Don't want to make it appear as if Hendry's competent, ya know.

[BigbadB]

What do you do for CF then Don?

 

Plenty of options there. I think it is important to nail down Furcal first, if that is Hendry's intent, so the leadoff hitter thing is resolved. That means the CF option no longer must be a leadoff man, opening up additional possibilities.

 

There are the obvious choices: sign Kenny Lofton, trade for Milton Bradley, trade for Mike Cameron, trade for Juan Pierre. But my favorite choice would be a trade with Cleveland. How about:

 

Walker + Rich Hill + Ricky Nolasco for Grady Sizemore and Rafael Betancourt? Or if that is a bit too rich for Cleveland, substitute Coco Crisp for Sizemore. Walker is expendable, Hill doesn't fit in the Cubs' rotation plans if they are going to sign a free agent like Burnett or Millwood, and Nolasco is a promising prospect, but still, a prospect. Cleveland solves their need for a 1B/2B option that can hit, they get a young starter to plug into their rotation (or use in the bullpen) in Hill, and they get the free option on Nolasco, who would likely pitch AAA for them in '06.

 

Murton, Sizemore and Abreu in the OF, with Furcal and Cedeno up the middle, I really like that.... 8)

 

Absolute pipe dream if you think Cleveland gives up Sizemore. I hope Pie ends up being as good as Sizemore appears to be.

 

How many guys hit nearly .290, 111 runs scored, 70 XBH's and a .348 OBP at the age of 22? Tack on that he provides this kind of production from CF and will make 300K for a few more years yet, and you have what we like to call our top prospects, "untouchable".

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Murton was the reason the Cubs made that deal. They were just gonna trade for Orlando Cabrera.

 

Haven't heard this before?? Some like to portrary Murton as a mere throw-in. Don't want to make it appear as if Hendry's competent, ya know.

 

No more kool-aid for you two.

 

Murton was a last minute throw in, not the centerpiece. How can he be the "reason the cubs made that deal?"

 

He wasn't targeted from day 1. He wasn't going to be an addition to the MLB team at the deadline. Nomar was the centerpiece for us.

[CubfaninCA]

Murton was the reason the Cubs made that deal. They were just gonna trade for Orlando Cabrera.

 

Haven't heard this before?? Some like to portrary Murton as a mere throw-in. Don't want to make it appear as if Hendry's competent, ya know.

 

No more kool-aid for you two.

 

Murton was a last minute throw in, not the centerpiece. How can he be the "reason the cubs made that deal?"

 

He wasn't targeted from day 1. He wasn't going to be an addition to the MLB team at the deadline. Nomar was the centerpiece for us.

 

He never said Murton was the centerpiece. It appears his point was that the Cubs opted for Nomar instead of Cabrera when Murton was added. If true, then Murton was more than a mere throw in.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

The Cubs gave up Justin Jones,Frances Beltran,Alex Gonzalez & Brendan Harris for Nomar & Murton. The Cubs orginally wanted Cabrera, but then the Red Sox got involved b/c they were desperate to get rid of Nomar & knew the Cubs might be interested, in order for Boston to make Hendry bite they had to add Murton to the deal. At the time Boston was already in trade talks with the Twins for Doug Mien.... & were interested in a LH minor league prospect therefore the Cubs traded Jones to Minn. for Murton. That's how I understood the trade.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

What do you do for CF then Don?

 

Plenty of options there. I think it is important to nail down Furcal first, if that is Hendry's intent, so the leadoff hitter thing is resolved. That means the CF option no longer must be a leadoff man, opening up additional possibilities.

 

There are the obvious choices: sign Kenny Lofton, trade for Milton Bradley, trade for Mike Cameron, trade for Juan Pierre. But my favorite choice would be a trade with Cleveland. How about:

 

Walker + Rich Hill + Ricky Nolasco for Grady Sizemore and Rafael Betancourt? Or if that is a bit too rich for Cleveland, substitute Coco Crisp for Sizemore. Walker is expendable, Hill doesn't fit in the Cubs' rotation plans if they are going to sign a free agent like Burnett or Millwood, and Nolasco is a promising prospect, but still, a prospect. Cleveland solves their need for a 1B/2B option that can hit, they get a young starter to plug into their rotation (or use in the bullpen) in Hill, and they get the free option on Nolasco, who would likely pitch AAA for them in '06.

 

Murton, Sizemore and Abreu in the OF, with Furcal and Cedeno up the middle, I really like that.... 8)

 

Absolute pipe dream if you think Cleveland gives up Sizemore. I hope Pie ends up being as good as Sizemore appears to be.

 

How many guys hit nearly .290, 111 runs scored, 70 XBH's and a .348 OBP at the age of 22? Tack on that he provides this kind of production from CF and will make 300K for a few more years yet, and you have what we like to call our top prospects, "untouchable".

 

Like I said, if that's too rich for Cleveland, then Coco Crisp. They have some holes elsewhere--Walker makes a LOT of sense for them--and they have an extra outfielder. And there's more on the way from the minors, the Cleveland system is terrific, it's right up there with the Angels.

 

It's not like we'd be giving them junk, either--Hill and Nolasco are arguably our top two pitching prospects, and then there's the eminently affordable Todd Walker.

 

Milton Bradley is the more obvious and much cheaper option, granted, but I'm trying to figure how we can get Cleveland as a trade partner, since they've expressed an interest in the past about Walker, and have some extra players we might be interested in.

[BigbadB]

If I was Cleveland, I'd work a deal for Soriano or Kent before I'd make a play on Walker. Actually, why not offer up Crisp to San Diego for Loretta?

 

San Diego could then improve their outfield defense and promote Josh Barfield.

[rawaction]

If I was Cleveland, I'd work a deal for Soriano or Kent before I'd make a play on Walker. Actually, why not offer up Crisp to San Diego for Loretta?

 

San Diego could then improve their outfield defense and promote Josh Barfield.

 

I would like Crisp a lot. Not a game changer, but very solid, young, and cheap.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Looks like Philly may trade Howard instead of Thome. :shock:

 

Link.

 

It didn't take a decoder ring to figure out that Gillick's initial thought was that Howard would be the odd-man out, since he is by far the more attractive player to other teams on the trading block.

 

"It's a good situation," Gillick said. "There aren't many clubs with two players with that power. But with Thome, you just look at his track record."

 

When asked if there was a way to have both Howard and Thome in town, Gillick confessed, "Probably not.

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsbook/vezzini.jpg

Inconceivable!

[USSoccer]

Looks like Philly may trade Howard instead of Thome. :shock:

 

Link.

 

It didn't take a decoder ring to figure out that Gillick's initial thought was that Howard would be the odd-man out, since he is by far the more attractive player to other teams on the trading block.

 

"It's a good situation," Gillick said. "There aren't many clubs with two players with that power. But with Thome, you just look at his track record."

 

When asked if there was a way to have both Howard and Thome in town, Gillick confessed, "Probably not.

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsbook/vezzini.jpg

Inconceivable!

 

There's no way Gillick could be that dumb.

[CubsWin]

Since the Cubs farm system pretty much suks, they'll have a difficult time getting Abreu unless they're willing to give up Pie. Williams will probably have to go to Philly too. Can also see Philly insisting on a 3b, so perhaps Walker is dealt to another team and they send Philly a 3b. However, there may not be many bidders for Abreu. Can't see Philly dealing w/ NYM and the Yankees don't need a RF. Boston may make a nice offer though. Altogether, imo Philly will demand a huge price tag. Abreu >> Giles tho.

 

get ready to defend yourself.

 

Nah. I've seen a lot of posters make similar assessments of late.

Well, I'll agree it is not great, especially after producing major league caliber players like Murton and Cedeno just last season. It is thin at top end talent like Pie and Pawelek and maybe Guzman, but it has depth with other quality players that have a shot like EPatt, Harvey, Dopirak, Pinto, Marshall, Marmol, Nolasco, Gallagher and many others.

 

They'll probably rank in the middle of the pack after Murton and Cedeno joined the big club this season. If middle of the pack equals "suks" to you. That's fine. To me, this is the bottom part of their cycle. Their system has been fairly productive of late (Choi, B. Hill, Prior, Zambrano, Harris, Dubois, R. Hill, Murton, Cedeno, Pie) and needs to restock itself over the next couple of years. They've done it before. They can do it again.

 

Prior and Murton weren't products of our farm system.

In the same way that ROY Huston Street isn't a product of the A's farm system. But the point I was making is that they are no longer in the system. If Prior and Murton were still in the minors, the Cubs system would be ranked a lot higher next season. :wink:

[CubsWin]

Prior most certainly is. Murton spent about the same time in each of the two systems(including his MLB time), and he had his greatest success in our system too.

 

I think his point with Prior is he was the most major league ready SP prospect to come out of college in the last 50 yrs if not ever.

 

Yeah, but you can't just take away from the system because they were smart enough to draft him, or smart enough to trade for Murton. If Murton doesn't count, then we should be allowed to count Brendan Harris, Dontrelle Willis, etc.

 

well lets just count everyone that ever played 1 game in our system as "being developed by our system."

I never claimed they were developed by the Cubs' system. Though it is highly likely that both did receive coaching and adjustments along the way so Cubs instructors shouldn't be discounted completely.

 

I called them products of the Cubs' system. Both players made their major league debuts after having played in the Cubs minor league system. Thus, they are products of it and no longer in it. Thats all I was saying.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Looks like Philly may trade Howard instead of Thome. :shock:

 

Thome has one of the most unmovable contracts in the game. Right now Howards value might be at it's peak. I'm not shocked at all.

[E.J.]

Caught this little blurb in a Newsday article

 

In addition to working on Matsui's extension, the Yankees continue to work on their voids in centerfield and the bullpen. The Phillies are dangling Bobby Abreu, but the Yankees don't want to give up Robinson Cano or Chien-Ming Wang for him. Many team officials hold large reservations over pursuing Milton Bradley, whom the Dodgers will trade for virtually nothing.

 

If Abreu really is available I hope Hendry is thinking seriously about putting together a package for him.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Caught this little blurb in a Newsday article

 

In addition to working on Matsui's extension, the Yankees continue to work on their voids in centerfield and the bullpen. The Phillies are dangling Bobby Abreu, but the Yankees don't want to give up Robinson Cano or Chien-Ming Wang for him. Many team officials hold large reservations over pursuing Milton Bradley, whom the Dodgers will trade for virtually nothing.

 

If Abreu really is available I hope Hendry is thinking seriously about putting together a package for him.

 

It also re-inforces the view that Bradlet can be had for almost nothing. Mitre for Bradley, please.

[JeffH]

Please take a cue from The Wrath of Khan and create value (life) where there is none (lifelessness).

 

Trade SOMETHING for Bradley. At worst, you nontender him in December. At best, you either use him yourself or trade him for something later in the offseason.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Please take a cue from The Wrath of Khan and create value (life) where there is none (lifelessness).

 

Trade SOMETHING for Bradley. At worst, you nontender him in December. At best, you either use him yourself or trade him for something later in the offseason.

 

Seriously, he has much more value than the Dodgers want for him.