The 2005-2006 Chicago Bulls Thread

[DivineBovine]

Paxson says in the Trib that there is no interest on the Bulls part, and this is the first he's heard of it.

Sun-Times[/url]"]'It is a total fabrication,'' Paxson said of an item published in the New York Post on Monday that said the Knicks made a ''serious inquiry'' about Gordon. ''I have not spoken to that organization since last October, so the Post has printed something that is false.

 

''If the Knicks do plan on making an inquiry, they can save themselves a phone call because I'm not interested.''

 

 

Good for you Pax. Who would we possibly want? Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis? I'll pass. Jamal Crawford? Man, I wouldn't take him back if they paid his ridiculous salary.

 

I don't doubt that Isaiah wants Gordon. I'm sure he does. But the deal sounds absurd.

[Chocolate Milk]

WILD SPECULATION: I saw Michigan State's Paul Davis by Navy Pier yesterday. He was actually going into my girlfriend's building with a dude that looked like he could have been his agent. Is he in town for a workout or something? Could he be someone we're targeting with our second first rounder?

 

DID HE HAVE A FURROWED BROW THAT MADE HIM LOOK UPSET??????????

 

Hahahaha, we call him "Sad Eyes" in my house. He didn't dissapoint, he looked like he had been recently kicked in the crotch.

[cubweiser03]

Paul Davis sucks because of the motion offense at MSU. Get him out of that guard/forward system and let him post up a little more or play some pick and roll and he might do well.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Paul Davis sucks because of the motion offense at MSU. Get him out of that guard/forward system and let him post up a little more or play some pick and roll and he might do well.

 

I don't think he has the foot speed to do well at the next level. He was a great(and over-criticized) college player, but I don't think his game translates well to the NBA.

[BigSlick]

Paul Davis sucks because of the motion offense at MSU. Get him out of that guard/forward system and let him post up a little more or play some pick and roll and he might do well.

 

No he sucks because he plays like a pussycat and has no toughness.

[Chocolate Milk]

Paul Davis sucks because of the motion offense at MSU. Get him out of that guard/forward system and let him post up a little more or play some pick and roll and he might do well.

 

No he sucks because he plays like a pussycat and has no toughness.

 

Also he has sad eyes.

[Mark_R]

I could live with Gordon and Tyson for Channing Frye and Jalen Rose.

[1908]

I could live with Gordon and Tyson for Channing Frye and Jalen Rose.

Gambling the Bulls could sign one of the big free agents in next year's class?

[Mark_R]

I could live with Gordon and Tyson for Channing Frye and Jalen Rose.

Gambling the Bulls could sign one of the big free agents in next year's class?

 

That would indeed be the plan. I saw the list awhile back, and it was sick.

 

Edit:

 

Looking it over, the list includes guys likely passing up their player option to put themselves into the Free Agent Pool. Here is the list:

 

Bibby

Billups

Dirk

Rashard Lewis

Vince Carter

Jamison

Stackhouse

Edited May 17, 2006 by Mark_R

[1908]

I could live with Gordon and Tyson for Channing Frye and Jalen Rose.

Gambling the Bulls could sign one of the big free agents in next year's class?

 

That would indeed be the plan. I saw the list awhile back, and it was sick.

Still a long shot to pry any of the truly elite players away from their current teams. Might be able to land a guy like Carter, but how much does he have left? A little too risky for my tastes, but it could pay off.

[Mark_R]

I could live with Gordon and Tyson for Channing Frye and Jalen Rose.

Gambling the Bulls could sign one of the big free agents in next year's class?

 

That would indeed be the plan. I saw the list awhile back, and it was sick.

Still a long shot to pry any of the truly elite players away from their current teams. Might be able to land a guy like Carter, but how much does he have left? A little too risky for my tastes, but it could pay off.

 

The reward far outweighs the risk. Gordon won't become a great player in NY because there still wouldn't be enough ball for everyone. Tyson may develop into a servicable player out there, but nothing great. You get rid of his albatrostic contract for the next five years and gain a huge bargaining chip with Jalen Rose. If you draft Aldridge or Bargnani, you've got your front line for a long time and a two guard in the league is probably the EASIEST position to replace.

 

I tried it at realgm, it didn't work, so there may have to be some salary throw in to make it work for both sides.

 

On paper it looks a bit outlandish, but the logic behind a move like that is strong.

[1908]

Gordon won't become a great player in NY because there still wouldn't be enough ball for everyone.

Assuming NY stands pat this off season.

 

I'm more concerned with what Gordon could turn into here. I remember you calling him nothing more than a role player this past season, but I see a lot of Arenas in his future.

 

You get rid of his albatrostic contract for the next five years and gain a huge bargaining chip with Jalen Rose.

I'm not ready to write Tyson off yet. Although he was very disappointing this year, he's still a defensive presence. How old was Ben Wallace when he finally figured stuff out?

 

Rose's expiring contract would be a nice chip, but they've got a lot of nice chips already without him.

 

On paper it looks a bit outlandish, but the logic behind a move like that is strong.

It's a gamble. Could pay off, could fail, not a no-brainer -- and I suspect the Knicks are planning on making a run at next off season's free agent class, too.

[Mark_R]

Gordon won't become a great player in NY because there still wouldn't be enough ball for everyone.

Assuming NY stands pat this off season, but I'm more concerned with what Gordon could turn into here. I remember you calling him nothing more than a role player this past season, but I see a lot of Arenas in his future.

 

You get rid of his albatrostic contract for the next five years and gain a huge bargaining chip with Jalen Rose.

I'm not ready to write Tyson off yet. He was very disappointing this year, but he's still a defensive presence. How old was Ben Wallace when he finally figured stuff out? Rose's expiring contract would be a nice chip, but they've got a lot of nice chips already without him.

 

On paper it looks a bit outlandish, but the logic behind a move like that is strong.

It's a gamble. Could pay off, could fail, certainly not a no-brainer.

 

Gordon's a good player, but not a top guy. What this trade could allow is that we can be good next year with our two draft picks, not give up the farm for a guy like Garnett, grab a great young player who's a legit Center, and have the cap space in the summer of 07 to lock up our own core with the possibility of bringing in another superstar.

 

About Tyson to Wallace. Could be. That's the risk you take. I think its worth noting that two guard is the easiest spot in the game to replace. Given a very underwhelming big man group, start with two great young talents like the draft pick and Frye and let them develop with Deng, Nocioni, and Hinrich.

[1908]

Gordon's a good player, but not a top guy.

Not yet. But it's only his second year. Way too early to make that pronouncement. Look at Arenas, Billups, etc. for examples.

 

What this trade could allow is that we can be good next year with our two draft picks, not give up the farm for a guy like Garnett, grab a great young player who's a legit Center, and have the cap space in the summer of 07 to lock up our own core with the possibility of bringing in another superstar.

I don't see how this trade would make the Bulls better next year. Frye's a nice young piece, but he wouldn't make up for Gordon's scoring, and Rose is useless. It could make the team better longterm if everything fell into place, but the same holds true if the Bulls hang on to Tyson and Ben and they blossom.

 

About Tyson to Wallace. Could be. That's the risk you take. I think its worth noting that two guard is the easiest spot in the game to replace. Given a very underwhelming big man group, start with two great young talents like the draft pick and Frye and let them develop with Deng, Nocioni, and Hinrich.

How much younger is Fyre than Chandler? And I don't know if your claim that two guard is the easiest spot to fill is accurate or not. Are you speaking from a production standpoint or the number of bodies out there standpoint?

[BigSlick]

Gordon won't become a great player in NY because there still wouldn't be enough ball for everyone.

Assuming NY stands pat this off season.

 

I'm more concerned with what Gordon could turn into here. I remember you calling him nothing more than a role player this past season, but I see a lot of Arenas in his future.

 

You get rid of his albatrostic contract for the next five years and gain a huge bargaining chip with Jalen Rose.

I'm not ready to write Tyson off yet. Although he was very disappointing this year, he's still a defensive presence. How old was Ben Wallace when he finally figured stuff out?

 

Rose's expiring contract would be a nice chip, but they've got a lot of nice chips already without him.

 

On paper it looks a bit outlandish, but the logic behind a move like that is strong.

It's a gamble. Could pay off, could fail, not a no-brainer -- and I suspect the Knicks are planning on making a run at next off season's free agent class, too.

 

Wait, what? I'm a huge Gordon fan, but he hasn't the size or ability to drive like Arenas does. The comparison is fairly ridiculous.

 

BTW, he means its rather easy to find sharpshooting guards that can hit open 3's...which is fairly true.

[1908]

Wait, what? I'm a huge Gordon fan, but he hasn't the size or ability to drive like Arenas does. The comparison is fairly ridiculous.

Arenas isn't much bigger, and I think Gordon's every bit as athletic as he is.

 

BTW, he means its rather easy to find sharpshooting guards that can hit open 3's...which is fairly true.

If you think that's all Gordon does, I see little value discussing it further.

[jaydee]

Gordon won't become a great player in NY because there still wouldn't be enough ball for everyone.

Assuming NY stands pat this off season.

 

I'm more concerned with what Gordon could turn into here. I remember you calling him nothing more than a role player this past season, but I see a lot of Arenas in his future.

 

You get rid of his albatrostic contract for the next five years and gain a huge bargaining chip with Jalen Rose.

I'm not ready to write Tyson off yet. Although he was very disappointing this year, he's still a defensive presence. How old was Ben Wallace when he finally figured stuff out?

 

Rose's expiring contract would be a nice chip, but they've got a lot of nice chips already without him.

 

On paper it looks a bit outlandish, but the logic behind a move like that is strong.

It's a gamble. Could pay off, could fail, not a no-brainer -- and I suspect the Knicks are planning on making a run at next off season's free agent class, too.

 

Wait, what? I'm a huge Gordon fan, but he hasn't the size or ability to drive like Arenas does. The comparison is fairly ridiculous.

 

BTW, he means its rather easy to find sharpshooting guards that can hit open 3's...which is fairly true.

 

name some of these guards that are comparable to gordon then?

 

There is no point in trading anyone on this team unless it brings in a superstar. What this teams need is:

1) A big guard who can play D

2) inside size and scoring

 

I would be fine with finding a big guard that can play 1/2 and rotate hinrich/gordon and him in.... but more than anything the bulls need size and scoring down low. Guard play is the least of this team's worries.

[Mark_R]

Per 40 numbers (Points, rebounds, assist, fg%, ft%) and PER:

 

-Chandler: 8, 13.5, 1.5, 57%, 50%, and 12.23 PER (after being right around average for the prior three seasons)

-Gordon: 21.7, 3.5, 3.9, 42%, 78%, and 14.59 PER (15 is the average)

 

-Frye: 20, 9.5, 1.3, 48%, 82%, 18.12 PER

-Rose (pretty irrelevant since he would play almost zero time here, but...)

18, 4, 3.5, 42%, 78%, 13.95 PER.

 

And Rose's contract off the books and no more Tyson(!) would be tough to pass up.

 

Bear in mind, I realize some other minor salary contributors would be needed to make this deal a possibility. It would probably be insignificant players.

[BigSlick]

Wait, what? I'm a huge Gordon fan, but he hasn't the size or ability to drive like Arenas does. The comparison is fairly ridiculous.

Arenas isn't much bigger, and I think Gordon's every bit as athletic as he is.

 

BTW, he means its rather easy to find sharpshooting guards that can hit open 3's...which is fairly true.

If you think that's all Gordon does, I see little value discussing it further.

 

Thats not all I think he does, but it isn't hard to find someone that can effectively duplicate his point totals...however he has the potential to be so much better.

 

But he really doesn't have the same game as Arenas. Theres no way I could see him evolve and turn into that kind of player...because that just isn't his game.

[1908]

Per 40 numbers (Points, rebounds, assist, fg%, ft%) and PER:

 

-Chandler: 8, 13.5, 1.5, 57%, 50%, and 12.23 PER (after being right around average for the prior three seasons)

-Gordon: 21.7, 3.5, 3.9, 42%, 78%, and 14.59 PER (15 is the average)

 

-Frye: 20, 9.5, 1.3, 48%, 82%, 18.12 PER

-Rose (pretty irrelevant since he would play almost zero time here, but...)

18, 4, 3.5, 42%, 78%, 13.95 PER.

I like PER. I think it sums up the stats you provided above nicely. But it does a poor job evaluating defense. For instance, Ben Wallace produced a 17.54 PER this year. Do you think Fyre was the better player? I expect Tyson's PER to rebound next year, and Fyre has a ways to go before he's in the same class defensively as Tyson.

 

I also have my doubts about its predictive value, especially when looking at the first few seasons of a player's career. Diaw jumps from 8.82 and 9.97 to 17.31. Noch jumps form 9.96 to 16.12.

[Mark_R]

Per 40 numbers (Points, rebounds, assist, fg%, ft%) and PER:

 

-Chandler: 8, 13.5, 1.5, 57%, 50%, and 12.23 PER (after being right around average for the prior three seasons)

-Gordon: 21.7, 3.5, 3.9, 42%, 78%, and 14.59 PER (15 is the average)

 

-Frye: 20, 9.5, 1.3, 48%, 82%, 18.12 PER

-Rose (pretty irrelevant since he would play almost zero time here, but...)

18, 4, 3.5, 42%, 78%, 13.95 PER.

I like PER. I think it sums up the stats you provided above nicely. But it does a poor job evaluating defense. For instance, Ben Wallace produced a 17.54 PER this year. Do you think Fyre was the better player? I expect Tyson's PER to rebound next year, and Fyre has a ways to go before he's in the same class defensively as Tyson.

 

I also have my doubts about its predictive value, especially when looking at the first few seasons of a player's career. Diaw jumps from 8.82 and 9.97 to 17.31. Noch jumps form 9.96 to 16.12.

 

Frye was a pretty good defensive player in college. I think he will get better up front. What hurts Tyson, though, is that he has never been able to stay on the court for extended periods of time. He gets way too many ticky tack fouls that kill our interior presence. In his one season in the NBA, Frye averaged approx 1 foul per 8 minutes while Chandler was at 1 in less than 7 minutes. Those extra 5-6 minutes a game on the floor are critical. Also bear in mind how much "softer" Tyson has to play when he's being cognizant of his foul issues.

 

I think Tyson is a decent role player, but not for the money he's making. Would be nice to have a real center who could draw some attention. Not to mention three glorious years under team control before drawing a moderately sized payday.

[1908]

Frye was a pretty good defensive player in college. I think he will get better up front. What hurts Tyson, though, is that he has never been able to stay on the court for extended periods of time. He gets way too many ticky tack fouls that kill our interior presence. In his one season in the NBA, Frye averaged approx 1 foul per 8 minutes while Chandler was at 1 in less than 7 minutes. Those extra 5-6 minutes a game on the floor are critical. Also bear in mind how much "softer" Tyson has to play when he's being cognizant of his foul issues.

 

I think Tyson is a decent role player, but not for the money he's making. Would be nice to have a real center who could draw some attention. Not to mention three glorious years under team control before drawing a moderately sized payday.

I think you're selling Tyson a bit short, but I'd trade him straight up for Fyre with money in mind. With their cap space and top 5 pick, the Bulls should be able to address their front line without giving up on Gordon prematurely. That's my preference, and the path I expect Paxson to follow.

[Mark_R]

Frye was a pretty good defensive player in college. I think he will get better up front. What hurts Tyson, though, is that he has never been able to stay on the court for extended periods of time. He gets way too many ticky tack fouls that kill our interior presence. In his one season in the NBA, Frye averaged approx 1 foul per 8 minutes while Chandler was at 1 in less than 7 minutes. Those extra 5-6 minutes a game on the floor are critical. Also bear in mind how much "softer" Tyson has to play when he's being cognizant of his foul issues.

 

I think Tyson is a decent role player, but not for the money he's making. Would be nice to have a real center who could draw some attention. Not to mention three glorious years under team control before drawing a moderately sized payday.

I think you're selling Tyson a bit short, but I'd trade him straight up for Fyre with money in mind. With their cap space and top 5 pick, the Bulls should be able to address their front line without giving up on Gordon prematurely. That's my preference, and the path I expect Paxson to follow.

 

Naturally, I'd prefer to keep Gordon if I could net Frye without dealing him. With Isaiah, you never know what is possible ;)

[ctcf]

Frye was a pretty good defensive player in college. I think he will get better up front. What hurts Tyson, though, is that he has never been able to stay on the court for extended periods of time. He gets way too many ticky tack fouls that kill our interior presence. In his one season in the NBA, Frye averaged approx 1 foul per 8 minutes while Chandler was at 1 in less than 7 minutes. Those extra 5-6 minutes a game on the floor are critical. Also bear in mind how much "softer" Tyson has to play when he's being cognizant of his foul issues.

 

I think Tyson is a decent role player, but not for the money he's making. Would be nice to have a real center who could draw some attention. Not to mention three glorious years under team control before drawing a moderately sized payday.

I think you're selling Tyson a bit short, but I'd trade him straight up for Fyre with money in mind. With their cap space and top 5 pick, the Bulls should be able to address their front line without giving up on Gordon prematurely. That's my preference, and the path I expect Paxson to follow.

 

Naturally, I'd prefer to keep Gordon if I could net Frye without dealing him. With Isaiah, you never know what is possible ;)

I am a huge fan of Gordon but I think I could possibly live with this deal. Like Mark said I'd much rather try to trade someone besides Ben.

[snoodmonger]

Out of curiousity, who on the Bulls would you folks be least willing to trade?

 

I'd post my own thoughts, but they're so biased toward Kirk, I don't think they're even legitimate.