Moneyballing?

[CubinNY]

With Depodesta being fired and Epstine quiting have the old guard dinosaurs won the battle against the stat geek know-it-alls?

 

Will baseball ever warm up to anything new?

 

Thoughts?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

[CubinNY]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

 

So you are thinking it is a coincedence that the only two "moneyballers" besides Bean were let go/walked away?

 

I'm not saying it's not but I find it interesting. The Gary Hughes' of the world hate the stat heads.

[rocket]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

 

So you are thinking it is a coincedence that the only two "moneyballers" besides Bean were let go/walked away?

 

I'm not saying it's not but I find it interesting. The Gary Hughes' of the world hate the stat heads.

 

Well, Theo was offered a 3 year extension and Theo turned it down.

[Mark_R]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

 

So you are thinking it is a coincedence that the only two "moneyballers" besides Bean were let go/walked away?

 

I'm not saying it's not but I find it interesting. The Gary Hughes' of the world hate the stat heads.

 

JP Riccardi is still in Toronto.

[imb]

Depo is the only one that got kicked out, Boston wanted Epstein, and it wouldnt shock me to see them call up Depodesta, although im sure Epstein would warn him against it.

[biittner77]

Depo is the only one that got kicked out, Boston wanted Epstein, and it wouldnt shock me to see them call up Depodesta, although im sure Epstein would warn him against it.

 

 

I wonder what Theo could say that would make having the 2nd highest payroll and a playoff caliber team already in place not sound attractive to an out of work GM.

 

"Have you heard the way these people talk, They say "Chow-da" for Pete's sake!"

[cubbieinexile]

It looks like Theo had a clash with his mentor, Lucchino. Nor is Lucchino old guard. So Theo leaving wasn't the old guard puching out the new guard. It was the new guard fighting with the new guard.

 

Over in LA you have a new owner firing his first GM. He is a new owner and he wants results. This off-season he cleaned house. Got rid of Depo and Tracy. Sort of like Snyder and the redskins.

[treebird]

the dumber the other teams are the smarter the a's look in comparison

 

i hope all the other teams go stupid and act like the cubs.

[katway]

It looks like Theo had a clash with his mentor, Lucchino. Nor is Lucchino old guard. So Theo leaving wasn't the old guard puching out the new guard. It was the new guard fighting with the new guard.

 

Over in LA you have a new owner firing his first GM. He is a new owner and he wants results. This off-season he cleaned house. Got rid of Depo and Tracy. Sort of like Snyder and the redskins.

 

Exactly. Nothing new guard versus old guard in any of these instances. In addition, Bill James (a stat geek above all others) is being retained by the Red Sox, who will probably pursue Kevin Towers.

[RynoRules]

the dumber the other teams are the smarter the a's look in comparison

 

i hope all the other teams go stupid and act like the cubs.

 

Wow. Why must we compare these situations? They are completely different. How can you possibly compare the cash-happy LA and Bos. organizations, with their meddling ownership and unrealistic expecttaions, with Oak., where Beane is bigger than the organization?

 

If that's not what you intended, then I apologize. But I don't think its fair to make that sweeping statement and comparison.

[Blizzau]

the dumber the other teams are the smarter the a's look in comparison

 

i hope all the other teams go stupid and act like the cubs.

 

Wow. Why must we compare these situations? They are completely different. How can you possibly compare the cash-happy LA and Bos. organizations, with their meddling ownership and unrealistic expecttaions, with Oak., where Beane is bigger than the organization?

 

If that's not what you intended, then I apologize. But I don't think its fair to make that sweeping statement and comparison.

 

I believe Treebeard's point was to proclaim respect and admiration of the A's, who continually are one of the most cost effective, efficient and well-run organizations in Major League Baseball.

 

I found the juxtaposition to other, richer, less progressive clubs completely relevant. And he makes a good point.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I don't think it has anything to do with MoneyBall. Well....the DePo firing does, he's been ridiculed from day one and it hasn't stopped.

 

Anyway what we SHOULD be thinking is...there are a sh*tload of franchise changing GMs out there....

 

DePo

Fuson

Epstein

Towers potentially

Logan White

The Twins scouting director

David Forst

 

And even more lucky for the Cubs, there is a legit shot all of these guys will be available NEXT year.

 

God, I would be so happy to see the Cubs hire a GM who isn't a [expletive] and isn't completely traditional.

[Larry Horse]

I don't think it has anything to do with MoneyBall. Well....the DePo firing does, he's been ridiculed from day one and it hasn't stopped.

 

Anyway what we SHOULD be thinking is...there are a sh*tload of franchise changing GMs out there....

 

DePo

Fuson

Epstein

Towers potentially

Logan White

The Twins scouting director

David Forst

 

And even more lucky for the Cubs, there is a legit shot all of these guys will be available NEXT year.

 

God, I would be so happy to see the Cubs hire a GM who isn't a [expletive] and isn't completely traditional.

 

Twins scouting director? I like the sound of that for the Cubs. Anyone have any info on him?

[BigbadB]

I don't think it has anything to do with MoneyBall. Well....the DePo firing does, he's been ridiculed from day one and it hasn't stopped.

 

Anyway what we SHOULD be thinking is...there are a sh*tload of franchise changing GMs out there....

 

DePo

Fuson

Epstein

Towers potentially

Logan White

The Twins scouting director

David Forst

 

And even more lucky for the Cubs, there is a legit shot all of these guys will be available NEXT year.

 

God, I would be so happy to see the Cubs hire a GM who isn't a [expletive] and isn't completely traditional.

 

The harsh language was not needed at all to make your point. Try it!

[Laura]

Depo is the only one that got kicked out, Boston wanted Epstein, and it wouldnt shock me to see them call up Depodesta, although im sure Epstein would warn him against it.

 

Boston has already called him according to espn radio.

[Bruce Miles]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

 

So you are thinking it is a coincedence that the only two "moneyballers" besides Bean were let go/walked away?

 

I'm not saying it's not but I find it interesting. The Gary Hughes' of the world hate the stat heads.

 

I won't get many on this board to agree with me, but Gary Hughes doesn't "hate" the "stat heads." He's one of the more open-minded guys I've been around, and believe it or not, he relies on stats. He just happens to value the opinions of scouts. I think he has a pretty impressive record of procuring talent in places like Montreal and Florida. Just think of the teams Montreal could have had if they had money.

I've talked to Gary on numerous occasions and find him very enlightened on a lot of trends in baseball. My belief is that there is plenty of room in this game for input from all sides. Theo Epstein, another talented guy, isn't just a "Moneyball" disciple. He relies on scouts, too. He'll be a tremendous addition to his next organization. Too bad for him and the Red Sox he lost a power struggle in Boston.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

BTW:

 

Riccardi

Towers

Schapiro

Jocketty

Byrnes

Daniels

 

 

Are all "MoneyBall" GM's. And there are more coming, and many other guys employed by teams.

[USSoccer]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

 

So you are thinking it is a coincedence that the only two "moneyballers" besides Bean were let go/walked away?

 

I'm not saying it's not but I find it interesting. The Gary Hughes' of the world hate the stat heads.

 

I won't get many on this board to agree with me, but Gary Hughes doesn't "hate" the "stat heads." He's one of the more open-minded guys I've been around, and believe it or not, he relies on stats. He just happens to value the opinions of scouts. I think he has a pretty impressive record of procuring talent in places like Montreal and Florida. Just think of the teams Montreal could have had if they had money.

I've talked to Gary on numerous occasions and find him very enlightened on a lot of trends in baseball. My belief is that there is plenty of room in this game for input from all sides. Theo Epstein, another talented guy, isn't just a "Moneyball" disciple. He relies on scouts, too. He'll be a tremendous addition to his next organization. Too bad for him and the Red Sox he lost a power struggle in Boston.

 

I think a lot of opinions of Hughes stem from that round table he was a part of last winter where it seemed like he was anti-stat. Also, if he does value stats, they might just be the more traditional BA/HR/RBI stats judging by the Cubs' moves the past 18 months.

 

You definetly have better insight than I, so I'll take your word on it, and hope we see more of a focus on OBP and such this winter.

[SouthSideRyan]

BTW:

 

Riccardi

Towers

Schapiro

Jocketty

Byrnes

Daniels

 

 

Are all "MoneyBall" GM's. And there are more coming, and many other guys employed by teams.

 

What makes these people moneyball GMs? I hate these random distinctions. EVERY GM, even the LaMars of the world are using stats.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Oh....well then whats the point of labeling guys MoneyBall GMs?

 

Obviously I listed those guys because they use stats more heavily than other GMs. Otherwise there'd be no point in distincting them from the others if all GMs used stats...no?

 

I mean do you think these "MoneyBall GMs" are the guys who fire ever single scout they have and sit at their laptop with their computer nerd slave running through lists of OBPs of every play in the country?

[SouthSideRyan]

Oh....well then whats the point of labeling guys MoneyBall GMs?

 

That's my point. It's stupid. There's good GMs and there's bad GMs, that's it.

 

Obviously I listed those guys because they use stats more heavily than other GMs. Otherwise there'd be no point in distincting them from the others if all GMs used stats...no?

 

I mean do you think these "MoneyBall GMs" are the guys who fire ever single scout they have and sit at their laptop with their computer nerd slave running through lists of OBPs of every play in the country?

 

HOLY STRAWMAN!!

 

So in the past week or so of Byrnes and Daniels' tenures as GMs they've proven to you that they use stats more than the standard GM? I don't hear Shapiro talked about as a stats guy often at all. Amazing what a 90 win season can do for your moneyball status. Labelling Jocketty as stats oriented seems a stretch at best.

 

 

Stats or not, Ricciardi is not a good GM. I used to be a Towers fan, but he 's disappointed me in the past couple years. DePodesta made some questionable moves.

 

Billy Beane is one of the best in the business, I don't understand this need to claim so many guys as being subscribers to his same theories

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

All evidence surrounding Byrnes (who would have replaced Epstein as Bostons GM) and Daniels point to them being sabermetrically inclined GMs. Same thing for Schapiro and Jockety, just because its not shoved in your face by the media doesn't mean its not there. Its pretty well known by now that MGL over at Primer and scout.com has worked for the Cardinals, which is why its so hard to find anything recent with UZR (a defensive stat - shockingly used on a team whose pitching staff is very dependent on its defense).

 

You're acting like the things said in MoneyBall are new....they're not. Branch Rickey was saying this stuff 50 and 60 years ago....

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Moneyball is a book, not an adjective.

[SouthSideRyan]

All evidence surrounding Byrnes (who would have replaced Epstein as Bostons GM) and Daniels point to them being sabermetrically inclined GMs. Same thing for Schapiro and Jockety, just because its not shoved in your face by the media doesn't mean its not there. Its pretty well known by now that MGL over at Primer and scout.com has worked for the Cardinals, which is why its so hard to find anything recent with UZR (a defensive stat - shockingly used on a team whose pitching staff is very dependent on its defense).

 

You're acting like the things said in MoneyBall are new....they're not. Branch Rickey was saying this stuff 50 and 60 years ago....

 

You're right, anyone with a stats system for defense is SABRiffic. I'm walking away rather than being patronized by somebody who thinks reading a little BA makes him a statistician.