Garner calls out his players

[indifferent]

Didn't see this posted anywhere. What's your take, abhorrent backstabbing or overreaction by SI?

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/tom_verducci/10/26/astros.game3/index.html

[vaball]

Phil Garner isn't a very good manager and never has been. It's not too hard to win games with pitchers like Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte and Lidge.

 

But when the other team can pitch with you, or can hit your pitcher, he has nothing to go on.

[CuseCubFan69]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

[indifferent]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

I know, but I agree with Verducci in that Garner made not one move to stop the bleeding. Manufacture a run with the squeeze, talk to Oswalt, pull Oswalt after a career high 46 pitches in the 5th, something!

 

I guess it's easy to not take the blame in the post game conference when you make absolutely no moves to question (other than non-moves)!

[Wild_Cubs04]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

[goonys evil twin]

I thought it was a silly outburst from Garner. His team hasn't been able to hit all season. I don't understand why he just seems to have figured that out. I could see if this was a great hitting team that disappeared in the playoffs, but they've been lucky to score as much as they have so far. What about Roy crapping the bed? I think Garner failed big time in that game, and blaming it on hitters failing (when those hitters have proven time and time again they will fail a lot more than others) is weak.

[CuseCubFan69]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

I know, but I agree with Verducci in that Garner made not one move to stop the bleeding. Manufacture a run with the squeeze, talk to Oswalt, pull Oswalt after a career high 46 pitches in the 5th, something!

 

I guess it's easy to not take the blame in the post game conference when you make absolutely no moves to question (other than non-moves)!

 

Again it goes with knowing your players and the situations that come up. I didn't see the game so I don't know the different examples that those who did watch it would but I am a believer that the manager knows his team and how each player reacts to different circumstances and can identify what to do. He sees them for 162 games+ and how often did this SI guy see them not to mention the mental part of this? It's a managers job to know when to coddle, us against them and when to let them have it.

[transplanted_suburbanite]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

 

A Dusty outburst would be tremendous. Maybe he doesn't care enough to get mad?

[snoodmonger]

Phil Garner isn't a very good manager and never has been. It's not too hard to win games with pitchers like Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte and Lidge.

 

But when the other team can pitch with you, or can hit your pitcher, he has nothing to go on.

 

I think you give managers in general too much credit. When the other team is pitching as well as you and hitting your pitchers, there's not much a manager CAN do.

 

And I'm not sure how much blame you can put on Garner RE: Clemens' two inning performance or Oswalt looking like crap. I do agree with indifferent, though, that he could take a few more risks.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Where's Lee Elia when you need him?

[sethuel1]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

 

A Dusty outburst would be tremendous. Maybe he doesn't care enough to get mad?

 

he's embarassed because last time he had a public tantrum it resulted in one of the funniest fark photoshop threads ever.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

 

A Dusty outburst would be tremendous. Maybe he doesn't care enough to get mad?

 

he's embarassed because last time he had a public tantrum it resulted in one of the funniest fark photoshop threads ever.

 

post plz

[cubssox fan]

I never thought Garner was a good manager either. The only reason they made that late run last season was because Beltran had an amazing last month to the season and carried that into the playoffs. This season I dont care what your offense is when you have Pettitte, Clemens, and Oswalt you better make the playoffs.....this is the majors no team should be shutout as much as they did....

[vaball]

Phil Garner isn't a very good manager and never has been. It's not too hard to win games with pitchers like Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte and Lidge.

 

But when the other team can pitch with you, or can hit your pitcher, he has nothing to go on.

 

I think you give managers in general too much credit. When the other team is pitching as well as you and hitting your pitchers, there's not much a manager CAN do.

 

And I'm not sure how much blame you can put on Garner RE: Clemens' two inning performance or Oswalt looking like crap. I do agree with indifferent, though, that he could take a few more risks.

 

He can order things like try a squeze, hit and run, steal, intentionally walk certain hitters, make pitching changes at the right time, get the best matchups possible out of his bullpen and off his bench late in the game. To me, Garner seems bad at doing any and all of that. I think he's a poor in game manager, basically.

 

I agree that if his players don't execute there isn't much he or any manager can do, but Garner can't even do what a manager in theory can do (above) to get/prevent runs. In short, Garner sucks.

[indifferent]

Phil Garner isn't a very good manager and never has been. It's not too hard to win games with pitchers like Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte and Lidge.

 

But when the other team can pitch with you, or can hit your pitcher, he has nothing to go on.

 

I think you give managers in general too much credit. When the other team is pitching as well as you and hitting your pitchers, there's not much a manager CAN do.

 

And I'm not sure how much blame you can put on Garner RE: Clemens' two inning performance or Oswalt looking like crap. I do agree with indifferent, though, that he could take a few more risks.

 

He can order things like try a squeze, hit and run, steal, intentionally walk certain hitters, make pitching changes at the right time, get the best matchups possible out of his bullpen and off his bench late in the game. To me, Garner seems bad at doing any and all of that. I think he's a poor in game manager, basically.

 

I agree that if his players don't execute there isn't much he or any manager can do, but Garner can't even do what a manager in theory can do (above) to get/prevent runs. In short, Garner sucks.

 

People look at the WS game score and see a blowout, but in reality, these have all been close games. Garner making the right moves could have changed the outcome of one, maybe two games. Who knows? But his ineptitude is especially disappointing given the close nature of the games. I know we're talking about Roy Oswalt, but I would have been fuming had Tony not pulled the starter in the 5th inning, even if it was Chris Carpenter.

 

Let us not forget this is the same manager who pulled Berkman in the 9th against ATL for a pinch runner in a tie game (along with expunging various starters - Ausmus was playing 1st base) and who had no bench or pitchers with the exception of Clemens in game 4.

 

Cuse Cubs, you give the manager the benefit of the doubt if you assume he knows what he's doing or what's best for his players. I don't think he gave much thought to it personally. I think it was an off the cuff, emotional reaction and any manager in any field should know better.

[CuseCubFan69]

Cuse Cubs, you give the manager the benefit of the doubt if you assume he knows what he's doing or what's best for his players. I don't think he gave much thought to it personally. I think it was an off the cuff, emotional reaction and any manager in any field should know better.

 

I may be giving him too much credit but when it comes to knowing his team I'm quite sure he knows how they would react a lot better than some writer.

 

I agree that the series is a lot closer then it seems but how do you know that Garner didn't help make it closer? When people look at 6-5 they assume that if the manager did something the team with 5 they might have won but is it possible that the manager helped get them to within 1 instead of down 2 or 3 and did all he could?

[goonys evil twin]

Cuse Cubs, you give the manager the benefit of the doubt if you assume he knows what he's doing or what's best for his players. I don't think he gave much thought to it personally. I think it was an off the cuff, emotional reaction and any manager in any field should know better.

 

I may be giving him too much credit but when it comes to knowing his team I'm quite sure he knows how they would react a lot better than some writer.

 

That sounds an awful lot like the Dusty Baker defense (he knows more than some fan who has never "been there").

[CuseCubFan69]

Cuse Cubs, you give the manager the benefit of the doubt if you assume he knows what he's doing or what's best for his players. I don't think he gave much thought to it personally. I think it was an off the cuff, emotional reaction and any manager in any field should know better.

 

I may be giving him too much credit but when it comes to knowing his team I'm quite sure he knows how they would react a lot better than some writer.

 

That sounds an awful lot like the Dusty Baker defense (he knows more than some fan who has never "been there").

 

I would think Baker would know better then we would and I said that the first year he was in Chicago. It's his job and since it is his job I have to assume that he can do it better than we can. Hendry thought he was the best man for the job and I assumed he was right. It's one thing about listening to ideas and quite another when it comes to the daily things that go on behind the scenes with a ball team.

[goonys evil twin]

Cuse Cubs, you give the manager the benefit of the doubt if you assume he knows what he's doing or what's best for his players. I don't think he gave much thought to it personally. I think it was an off the cuff, emotional reaction and any manager in any field should know better.

 

I may be giving him too much credit but when it comes to knowing his team I'm quite sure he knows how they would react a lot better than some writer.

 

That sounds an awful lot like the Dusty Baker defense (he knows more than some fan who has never "been there").

 

I would think Baker would know better then we would and I said that the first year he was in Chicago. It's his job and since it is his job I have to assume that he can do it better than we can. Hendry thought he was the best man for the job and I assumed he was right. It's one thing about listening to ideas and quite another when it comes to the daily things that go on behind the scenes with a ball team.

 

But you make it sound like that SI writer has no business questioning Garner, just like many say we have no business questioning Dusty.

[indifferent]

Maybe the rest of us have no way of knowing if the Astros players are masochists, but as an objective observer, I don't see the harm in questioning his in game moves.

[ConstableRabbit]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

 

A Dusty outburst would be tremendous. Maybe he doesn't care enough to get mad?

 

he's embarassed because last time he had a public tantrum it resulted in one of the funniest fark photoshop threads ever.

 

 

post plz

 

I think this is the one he was talking about.

 

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=919494&mode=voteresults

[RynoRules]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

 

A Dusty outburst would be tremendous. Maybe he doesn't care enough to get mad?

 

he's embarassed because last time he had a public tantrum it resulted in one of the funniest fark photoshop threads ever.

 

 

post plz

 

I think this is the one he was talking about.

 

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=919494&mode=voteresults

 

That's bloody hysterical.

 

And seriously, what should Garner do to counter the fact the Baseball G-ds are on the side of the Southsiders?

[vaball]

I would assume Garner knows his team better than some hack from SI.

 

Agreed. I wish Dusty could get even a little fired up and take it to the team sometimes.

 

Edited to also agree w/Indiff's last post :wink:

 

A Dusty outburst would be tremendous. Maybe he doesn't care enough to get mad?

 

he's embarassed because last time he had a public tantrum it resulted in one of the funniest fark photoshop threads ever.

 

 

post plz

 

I think this is the one he was talking about.

 

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=919494&mode=voteresults

 

That's bloody hysterical.

 

And seriously, what should Garner do to counter the fact the Baseball G-ds are on the side of the Southsiders?

 

How about not bring in Lidge in the 8th. That move was soooo bad I just started laughing and knew the White Sox were going to win.

[RynoRules]

That's bloody hysterical.

 

And seriously, what should Garner do to counter the fact the Baseball G-ds are on the side of the Southsiders?

 

How about not bring in Lidge in the 8th. That move was soooo bad I just started laughing and knew the White Sox were going to win.

 

That's a fair point, though I don't think its the reason the Stros got their buts handed to them.

[BeerHere]

Ensberg was awful in this series.