Rumored trade proposal (Pierre to Cubs for Hill/Patterson)

[David]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

[USSoccer]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/12928234.htm

 

Scroll down to Centerfield.

 

Salary difference between which two players?

 

Pierre and Patterson. Corey made 2.8m and Pierre made 3.7m last season. It's not a huge difference.

 

I think a beter question would be which player Hendry would value more; Michaels or Pierre.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Disregarding durability is a joke. Also, there's a 20 point difference in their career obp's and Pierre's a much bigger stolen base threat. Yes, he gets thrown out a little more than one wants, but he distracts a pitchers.

 

Again, I'm talking rates of production. I posted the numbers already, they've been mirrors for the last 4 years, but if you want to use numbers from 5+ years back to show how dissimilar they've been, go for it. And no, the Pierre distracts pitchers theory has been debunked. It's simply not true.

 

Posting the rate of production and making a comparison with a player that can't even stay healthy and has only played half as many games as the other player is meaningless. Also, as CubfaninCA pointed out there is a 20 pt difference in OBP which IMO would be the most important stat for a leadoff hitter. Pierre has shown an ability to get On base at a .355 clip. That has got to be worth something.

 

I posted the numbers already, they've been mirrors for the last 4 years.

 

Again, why isn't anyone saying that Hairston is the leadoff hitter we need if he was able to stay healthy?

[USSoccer]

I don't think he's the type of player that would pique his interest, he is a tough nosed player similar to Freel, but he doesn't have the speed that Hendry likes in his CF'ers.

 

I'm beginning to think we might need a new GM, or at least a new assistant GM to get a new voice in there. If Hendry keeps looking for old-school "tools" guys we're going to have to count on health and luck to win.

[UK1679666180]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/12928234.htm

 

Scroll down to Centerfield.

 

Salary difference between which two players?

 

Pierre and Patterson. Corey made 2.8m and Pierre made 3.7m last season. It's not a huge difference.

 

I think a beter question would be which player Hendry would value more; Michaels or Pierre.

 

Pierre will likely get around 4.5, I see CP staying at 2.8.

 

I think Hendry would value Pierre more than Michaels and he'd be dead wrong if he did.

[CUBZ99]

There seems to be alot of skeptics regarding Pierre, just interested to where Pierre ranks up there with "starting" leadoff hitters (available or unavailable) in OBP over the last 3 or so years?

[CubfaninCA]

Disregarding durability is a joke. Also, there's a 20 point difference in their career obp's and Pierre's a much bigger stolen base threat. Yes, he gets thrown out a little more than one wants, but he distracts a pitchers.

 

Again, I'm talking rates of production. I posted the numbers already, they've been mirrors for the last 4 years, but if you want to use numbers from 5+ years back to show how dissimilar they've been, go for it. And no, the Pierre distracts pitchers theory has been debunked. It's simply not true.

 

Debunked how so?? Cause Bill James says so?? How many major league fastballs has he swung at? Go look at how Furcal has helped Marcus Giles from 2002 to 2005.

 

Can't see how you can disregard production. You're basically saying that Hairston for Pierre and Kerry Wood for Tim Hudson are good trade proposals. Throw out game's played and their numbers are pretty close.

[CUBZ99]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

[USSoccer]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

Sure you can. You aren't talking about a 25 or 50 AB sample size. There's enough sample out there for Hairston to make an adequate projection of everyday performance.

[TXCubsFan]

This IS a rumor:

 

Cubs would get: Juan Pierre

Marlins would get: Corey Patterson and Rich Hill

 

according to rumor, the marlins proposed this trade

 

Did Jim Hendry stop laughing before or after he hung up the phone?

[CUBZ99]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

Sure you can. You aren't talking about a 25 or 50 AB sample size. There's enough sample out there for Hairston to make an adequate projection of everyday performance.

 

and the corrolary of your argument is that there is enough sample size out there to make an adequate projection that Hairston cannot remain healthy.

[CUBZ99]

Disregarding durability is a joke. Also, there's a 20 point difference in their career obp's and Pierre's a much bigger stolen base threat. Yes, he gets thrown out a little more than one wants, but he distracts a pitchers.

 

Again, I'm talking rates of production. I posted the numbers already, they've been mirrors for the last 4 years, but if you want to use numbers from 5+ years back to show how dissimilar they've been, go for it. And no, the Pierre distracts pitchers theory has been debunked. It's simply not true.

 

Debunked how so?? Cause Bill James says so?? How many major league fastballs has he swung at? Go look at how Furcal has helped Marcus Giles from 2002 to 2005.

 

Can't see how you can disregard production. You're basically saying that Hairston for Pierre and Kerry Wood for Tim Hudson are good trade proposals. Throw out game's played and their numbers are pretty close.

 

:lol: :lol: =D>

[USSoccer]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

Sure you can. You aren't talking about a 25 or 50 AB sample size. There's enough sample out there for Hairston to make an adequate projection of everyday performance.

 

and the corrolary of your argument is that there is enough sample size out there to make an adequate projection that Hairston cannot remain healthy.

 

If health is a concern, you can platoon Hairston with a Lofton or some other backup CF. But keep in mind that this past season he missed time only because he tore a ligament diving for a catch. It's not like he had nagging hammy issues or something.

[UK1679666180]

There seems to be alot of skeptics regarding Pierre, just interested to where Pierre ranks up there with "starting" leadoff hitters (available or unavailable) in OBP over the last 3 or so years?

 

Don't know, but I know Michaels would have a higher OBP, better defensively, and cheaper.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

But CPatt isn't comparing a part-time player to a player that has put up good numbers consistently (because Juan Pierre hasn't put up good numbers consistently).

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Debunked how so?? Cause Bill James says so?? How many major league fastballs has he swung at? Go look at how Furcal has helped Marcus Giles from 2002 to 2005.

 

No, I actually researched it myself rather than blindly following someone else's thoughts. How about Pierre himself? Hasn't seemed to help Mr. Castillo very much.

 

Reposted from another thread from late July:

 

Pierre hitting #1

 

2003: .302/.359/.370/.729 (667 PA's)

2004: .336/.382/.422/.804 (632 PA's)

2005: .272/.319/.357/.676 (385 PA's)

 

Luis Castillo hitting #2

 

2003: .325/.389/.406/.794 (590 PA's)

2004: .285/.372/.332/.704 (488 PA's)

2005: .333/.423/.415/.838 (271 PA's)

 

Their OPS's are almost perfect proportions. When one goes up the other goes down.

 

Can't see how you can disregard production. You're basically saying that Hairston for Pierre and Kerry Wood for Tim Hudson are good trade proposals. Throw out game's played and their numbers are pretty close.

 

I'm not saying that at all. People would say that Wood and Hudson are pretty comparable when Wood is healthy, and that's generally true. Why doesn't anyone say the same about Hairston and Pierre? For the nth time I'll ask: Why does no one think Hairston is a good leadoff hitter if he could just stay healthy? It's been said about Nomar, Wood, Prior, etc., but when it comes to someone who's been Pierre's double when healthy, not at all.

[CUBZ99]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

But CPatt isn't comparing a part-time player to a player that has put up good numbers consistently (because Juan Pierre hasn't put up good numbers consistently).

 

.355 career OBP doesn't meet your criteria of good numbers? #-o

[USSoccer]

*Just for CPatt20, and since I believe it*

 

I think Hairston could be the leadoff hitter we've been waiting for, if he could just stay healthy

[CUBZ99]

Debunked how so?? Cause Bill James says so?? How many major league fastballs has he swung at? Go look at how Furcal has helped Marcus Giles from 2002 to 2005.

 

No, I actually researched it myself rather than blindly following someone else's thoughts. How about Pierre himself? Hasn't seemed to help Mr. Castillo very much.

 

Reposted from another thread from late July:

 

Pierre hitting #1

 

2003: .302/.359/.370/.729 (667 PA's)

2004: .336/.382/.422/.804 (632 PA's)

2005: .272/.319/.357/.676 (385 PA's)

 

Luis Castillo hitting #2

 

2003: .325/.389/.406/.794 (590 PA's)

2004: .285/.372/.332/.704 (488 PA's)

2005: .333/.423/.415/.838 (271 PA's)

 

Their OPS's are almost perfect proportions. When one goes up the other goes down.

 

Can't see how you can disregard production. You're basically saying that Hairston for Pierre and Kerry Wood for Tim Hudson are good trade proposals. Throw out game's played and their numbers are pretty close.

 

I'm not saying that at all. People would say that Wood and Hudson are pretty comparable when Wood is healthy, and that's generally true. Why doesn't anyone say the same about Hairston and Pierre? For the nth time I'll ask: Why does no one think Hairston is a good leadoff hitter if he could just stay healthy? It's been said about Nomar, Wood, Prior, etc., but when it comes to someone who's been Pierre's double when healthy, not at all.

 

because he has a .334 lifetime OBP.

[UK1679666180]

Jason Michaels has a career .380 OBP. :)

 

Yes, I want Michaels.

[CUBZ99]

Jason Michaels has a career .380 OBP. :)

 

Yes, I want Michaels.

 

:lol:

[David]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

Sure you can. You aren't talking about a 25 or 50 AB sample size. There's enough sample out there for Hairston to make an adequate projection of everyday performance.

 

and the corrolary of your argument is that there is enough sample size out there to make an adequate projection that Hairston cannot remain healthy.

 

He is not saying that Hairston can remain healthy. He never once argued that. So I doubt he would counter your argument that he can't remain healthy.

 

What he IS saying, and justifiably so, is that nobody has ever said that Hairston, if healthy, would solve our leadoff problem (which he wouldn't), even though, over the last 4 years, he's been a similar hitter to Pierre.

[David]

Debunked how so?? Cause Bill James says so?? How many major league fastballs has he swung at? Go look at how Furcal has helped Marcus Giles from 2002 to 2005.

 

No, I actually researched it myself rather than blindly following someone else's thoughts. How about Pierre himself? Hasn't seemed to help Mr. Castillo very much.

 

Reposted from another thread from late July:

 

Pierre hitting #1

 

2003: .302/.359/.370/.729 (667 PA's)

2004: .336/.382/.422/.804 (632 PA's)

2005: .272/.319/.357/.676 (385 PA's)

 

Luis Castillo hitting #2

 

2003: .325/.389/.406/.794 (590 PA's)

2004: .285/.372/.332/.704 (488 PA's)

2005: .333/.423/.415/.838 (271 PA's)

 

Their OPS's are almost perfect proportions. When one goes up the other goes down.

 

Can't see how you can disregard production. You're basically saying that Hairston for Pierre and Kerry Wood for Tim Hudson are good trade proposals. Throw out game's played and their numbers are pretty close.

 

I'm not saying that at all. People would say that Wood and Hudson are pretty comparable when Wood is healthy, and that's generally true. Why doesn't anyone say the same about Hairston and Pierre? For the nth time I'll ask: Why does no one think Hairston is a good leadoff hitter if he could just stay healthy? It's been said about Nomar, Wood, Prior, etc., but when it comes to someone who's been Pierre's double when healthy, not at all.

 

because he has a .334 lifetime OBP.

 

Why use career stats that go back several years when you can use much more pertinent recent stats... 3 or 4 years is definitely a good enough sample size to be representative of a hitter's current ability.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

because he has a .334 lifetime OBP.

 

How many times does it have to be said? PIERRE AND HAIRSTON'S NUMBERS OVER THE LAST FOUR HAVE BEEN NEARLY IDENTICAL. If Pierre's production is good for a leadoff hitter, then Hairston has to be considered the same when healthy.

[CUBZ99]

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

You're totally missing the point of his post...

 

because there is no point, you can't compare a part time player to a guy that has put up good numbers on a consistent basis.

 

Sure you can. You aren't talking about a 25 or 50 AB sample size. There's enough sample out there for Hairston to make an adequate projection of everyday performance.

 

and the corrolary of your argument is that there is enough sample size out there to make an adequate projection that Hairston cannot remain healthy.

 

He is not saying that Hairston can remain healthy. He never once argued that. So I doubt he would counter your argument that he can't remain healthy.

 

What he IS saying, and justifiably so, is that nobody has ever said that Hairston, if healthy, would solve our leadoff problem (which he wouldn't), even though, over the last 4 years, he's been a similar hitter to Pierre.

 

How does a .334 lifetime OBP solve the leadoff problem? Its not like Hairston had a breakout year last year or showed an ability to do better, his numbers were almost equivilent to his career numbers.