Braves Working on Furcal

[Derwood]

No Neifi, probably Nomar.

 

Rich Aurilia "backing up" Ronnie Cedeno.

 

 

...after all the good free agents are signed, because once again Hendry sits back and "waits for the dust to settle" before making any mobes

 

That's actually a very inaccurate assessment of Hendry's MO. He always seems to move quickly on players he has targeted and much slower on players that he just has an interest in acquiring.

 

Following the 2002 and 2003 seasons, bullpen was the target area. He moved quickly both times to sign Remlinger in 2002 and Hawkins in 2003. Last season, re-signing Nomar was his target and he did it relatively efficiently. While we may disagree with the targets (and I do again in the case of Furcal and not Giles being the target), Hendry has shown an ability to go hard and rapidly after the players he deems to be the ones needed or desired.

 

I was speaking more to signing Maddux in February and watching all the good OF's go off the board before settling with Burnitz.

[Backtobanks]

Betemit is not a top defender at SS.

Furcal is. I imagine the Braves view him as the most unique, and, therefore, most difficult of their infielders to replace.

 

They'll make him a good offer. It will be less than some others he gets. The size of the difference will likely be the determining factor in whether he stays or goes.

 

John S. knows that keeping Giles and letting Furcal go will reduce their talent stock, while keeping Furcal and trading Giles will be less of a talent reduction.

 

I heard somewhere that Betemit seems to be getting heavier and the Braves might think that a different position might fit his body frame better.

[CubsWin]

No Neifi, probably Nomar.

 

Rich Aurilia "backing up" Ronnie Cedeno.

 

 

...after all the good free agents are signed, because once again Hendry sits back and "waits for the dust to settle" before making any mobes

 

That's actually a very inaccurate assessment of Hendry's MO. He always seems to move quickly on players he has targeted and much slower on players that he just has an interest in acquiring.

 

Following the 2002 and 2003 seasons, bullpen was the target area. He moved quickly both times to sign Remlinger in 2002 and Hawkins in 2003. Last season, re-signing Nomar was his target and he did it relatively efficiently. While we may disagree with the targets (and I do again in the case of Furcal and not Giles being the target), Hendry has shown an ability to go hard and rapidly after the players he deems to be the ones needed or desired.

 

I was speaking more to signing Maddux in February and watching all the good OF's go off the board before settling with Burnitz.

It would be nearly impossible to know that based on what you wrote.

 

But based on this comment, I'm assuming that there was some other pitcher you were hoping Hendry would have signed that off season and you feel he was left to settle for Mad Dog? That's also inaccurate. If anything, Maddux was left to settle for the Cubs. And can we assume that you would have been happy paying Beltran the more than what the Mets paid him or Ordonez more than what the Tigers paid him? I wouldn't be.

[Flames24Rulz]

this probably good news for those of us who want giles over furcal. seriously, furcal is an upgrade to neifi, but not enough of an upgrade to warrant spending so much more. i still say bring back nomar, sign giles and lofton (lofton to a 1 year deal), and try to grab burnett.

 

if we can trade for abreu, i say do it, i just don't think hendry will, is all.

 

give me Millwood/Washburn over Burnett anyday...

 

and to get back on topic, Furcal is everything we need. Good (not great, but he did improve in the 2nd half this year) leadoff hitter, has a cannon for an arm and is probably one of the best defensive SS's in the game. I can see why Atlanta is so interested in bringing him back...he is not overrated at all. Get him plz Jim.

[nilodnayr]

John S. knows that keeping Giles and letting Furcal go will reduce their talent stock, while keeping Furcal and trading Giles will be less of a talent reduction.

 

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

John S. knows that keeping Giles and letting Furcal go will reduce their talent stock, while keeping Furcal and trading Giles will be less of a talent reduction.

 

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

 

Think of it this way. Giles + Draft pick compensation < Furcal + trade return for Giles.

[nilodnayr]

John S. knows that keeping Giles and letting Furcal go will reduce their talent stock, while keeping Furcal and trading Giles will be less of a talent reduction.

 

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

 

Think of it this way. Giles + Draft pick compensation + 7M (difference between their salaries) > Furcal + trade return for Giles.

 

fixed, remember we are talking about an extremely cash strapped org here. I guess it all depends on who you get for Giles, but for the money they would save they could pick up a pretty good pitcher and another arm for the pen, both areas that need addressing. Unless they can fix both of those cheaply in a Giles trade, I dont see it making them a better ball club.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

John S. knows that keeping Giles and letting Furcal go will reduce their talent stock, while keeping Furcal and trading Giles will be less of a talent reduction.

 

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

 

Think of it this way. Giles + Draft pick compensation + 7M (difference between their salaries) > Furcal + trade return for Giles.

 

fixed, remember we are talking about an extremely cash strapped org here. I guess it all depends on who you get for Giles, but for the money they would save they could pick up a pretty good pitcher and another arm for the pen, both areas that need addressing. Unless they can fix both of those cheaply in a Giles trade, I dont see it making them a better ball club.

 

JeffH was talking about talent level, which to me is indpendent of salary implications(of course excepting the one that forces them to choose between Furcal and Giles).

[nilodnayr]

John S. knows that keeping Giles and letting Furcal go will reduce their talent stock, while keeping Furcal and trading Giles will be less of a talent reduction.

 

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

 

Think of it this way. Giles + Draft pick compensation + 7M (difference between their salaries) > Furcal + trade return for Giles.

 

fixed, remember we are talking about an extremely cash strapped org here. I guess it all depends on who you get for Giles, but for the money they would save they could pick up a pretty good pitcher and another arm for the pen, both areas that need addressing. Unless they can fix both of those cheaply in a Giles trade, I dont see it making them a better ball club.

 

JeffH was talking about talent level, which to me is indpendent of salary implications(of course excepting the one that forces them to choose between Furcal and Giles).

 

I see what you are saying but i dont think you can determine that without answer, who the braves could get for giles, and who would pick up furcal (bottom 15 team or not) as well as the other FAs that team picks up to see what kind of draft picks the braves would get for him. But a first and sandwich pick could bring you as much talent (albeit prospects) as giles could net you in a trade. And I think speaking independent of dollars is pretty useless anyway for 90% of organizations anyway, especially in the braves case.

[JeffH]

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

 

On top of what everyone else has said, Giles is going to make quite a bit more than $3 next season. Probably around $5.

[nilodnayr]

What?!?!?!?

I know 2b is a more offensive position but you are talking about getting rid of a guy who will make ~3M and has averaged 850 OPS and 16/20 in SB over his first 3 full major league seasons. Yeah, thats not talent.

 

On top of what everyone else has said, Giles is going to make quite a bit more than $3 next season. Probably around $5.

 

His salary is not going to more than double. Probably a realistic figure is the middle ground of 4M

[CubsWin]

Regardless of what Marcus Giles's salary will be next season, he would be the best 2B the Cubs could possibly get. I sure hope this article means what it seems to, that the Braves are doing their best to resign Furcal, because that may mean a trade of Marcus Giles.

 

The question remains, however, what will it take to get him and do the Cubs have what the Braves will want?

 

But leaving reality aside for a moment, a middle infield of Cedeno and Giles for the next 4-5 years looks pretty darn good, doesn't it? And Marcus would make a pretty good lead-off man, too...

[nilodnayr]

Regardless of what Marcus Giles's salary will be next season, he would be the best 2B the Cubs could possibly get. I sure hope this article means what it seems to, that the Braves are doing their best to resign Furcal, because that may mean a trade of Marcus Giles.

 

The question remains, however, what will it take to get him and do the Cubs have what the Braves will want?

 

But leaving reality aside for a moment, a middle infield of Cedeno and Giles for the next 4-5 years looks pretty darn good, doesn't it? And Marcus would make a pretty good lead-off man, too...

 

If we were to get Giles, what would the Braves want back? Would they want Walker? Would they rather go cheap with Marte and Betemit and second and third? If they dont want Walker then we need to flip him to a team who needs a second baseman either for something to go to the braves or for bullpen help. Teams that need second basemen:

 

Twins (is the FO different from the guys who ruined Walker's career from giving him the unfair defensively incompetent stigma)

Mets

 

I cant really think of anyone else.

[nilodnayr]

Regardless of what Marcus Giles's salary will be next season, he would be the best 2B the Cubs could possibly get. I sure hope this article means what it seems to, that the Braves are doing their best to resign Furcal, because that may mean a trade of Marcus Giles.

 

The question remains, however, what will it take to get him and do the Cubs have what the Braves will want?

 

But leaving reality aside for a moment, a middle infield of Cedeno and Giles for the next 4-5 years looks pretty darn good, doesn't it? And Marcus would make a pretty good lead-off man, too...

 

If we were to get Giles, what would the Braves want back? Would they want Walker? Would they rather go cheap with Marte and Betemit and second and third? If they dont want Walker then we need to flip him to a team who needs a second baseman either for something to go to the braves or for bullpen help. Teams that need second basemen:

 

Twins (is the FO different from the guys who ruined Walker's career from giving him the unfair defensively incompetent stigma)

Mets

 

I cant really think of anyone else.

 

And I guess the Dodgers if they move Kent to first.

[Jehrico]

Cleveland has made it be known that they're still interested in Walker. They've been trying to sign him for the last couple of years, and they probably have the most to offer back as well. That's the team I would zero in on as a potential third partner in a deal with Atlanta.

[CubfaninCA]

Regardless of what Marcus Giles's salary will be next season, he would be the best 2B the Cubs could possibly get. I sure hope this article means what it seems to, that the Braves are doing their best to resign Furcal, because that may mean a trade of Marcus Giles.

 

The question remains, however, what will it take to get him and do the Cubs have what the Braves will want?

 

But leaving reality aside for a moment, a middle infield of Cedeno and Giles for the next 4-5 years looks pretty darn good, doesn't it? And Marcus would make a pretty good lead-off man, too...

 

If we were to get Giles, what would the Braves want back? Would they want Walker? Would they rather go cheap with Marte and Betemit and second and third? If they dont want Walker then we need to flip him to a team who needs a second baseman either for something to go to the braves or for bullpen help. Teams that need second basemen:

 

Twins (is the FO different from the guys who ruined Walker's career from giving him the unfair defensively incompetent stigma)

Mets

 

I cant really think of anyone else.

 

Seems like Atl will want major bullpen help and some budget relief. This has been discussed in other threads, but they may want to move Chipper Jones. Perhaps they'd take Ramirez in a trade and the Cubs could use Walker and/or Patterson to help them acquire some pen help. There has been talk of them moving Marte to LF... The Cubs could acquire Giles and Chipper.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Chipper Jones is due 17 million next season and 20 million the next. I like his production, but I'm not really willing to give up a much younger and cheaper Ramirez to get him.

 

If Ramirez gets me Chipper and Giles without giving up anything else, I might consider it...but likely not.

 

If Chipper would move back to LF, I'd be willing to offer some bullpen help for him without getting Giles.

 

Trading Ramirez and Walker for Giles and Jones only improves the team marginally and eats up a large part of the free salary we would have to use in other areas. In essence, it's a bad deal.

[USSoccer]

Why on earth are people using Aramis as a trading chip? And for Chipper Jones and Marcus Giles??

 

Aramis will outproduce Jones in every phase of the game in 2006, plus he is much cheaper. It's laughable how much better Aramis is than Jones. And if you think Aramis gets banged up, wait til you pay Jones $17m to be on the DL with back spasms, or elbow issues.

 

Marcus Giles isn't any betetr than Todd Walker. That's a bad idea right there.

 

Aramis should not be a trading chip. He should be a building block, and someone you only trade for a top 10 player. Trading him for those 2 is, as best, a lateral move, and doesn't make your team any better.

[goonys evil twin]

Why on earth are people using Aramis as a trading chip? And for Chipper Jones and Marcus Giles??

 

Marcus Giles isn't any betetr than Todd Walker. That's a bad idea right there.

 

I wouldn't even think about that trade.

 

But Giles is better than Walker.

[Tim]

Because of the health concerns, I'm willing to look at Aramis being used in a move. However, I'm not going to take back the bigger health concern of Chipper in return.

 

Including ARam in a deal for ARod would be a different matter altogether.

 

I'm sure Anaheim could put together a package that would interest me for ARam (though it would be based mostly on their prospects).

 

There's a few others, but it would take a lot to get me to make a move.

[USSoccer]

Why on earth are people using Aramis as a trading chip? And for Chipper Jones and Marcus Giles??

 

Marcus Giles isn't any betetr than Todd Walker. That's a bad idea right there.

 

I wouldn't even think about that trade.

 

But Giles is better than Walker.

 

He's faster. Better defensively. Walker has better power and patience.

 

I'd say it's a push.

[goonys evil twin]

Why on earth are people using Aramis as a trading chip? And for Chipper Jones and Marcus Giles??

 

Marcus Giles isn't any betetr than Todd Walker. That's a bad idea right there.

 

I wouldn't even think about that trade.

 

But Giles is better than Walker.

 

He's faster. Better defensively. Walker has better power and patience.

 

I'd say it's a push.

 

They're avg/obp/slg lines have been pretty similar the past two years. Go back three years and Giles takes the cake. Going forward I have to think Giles will stay up over the 800 mark much longer.

 

I'd take Giles over Walker without question.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Why on earth are people using Aramis as a trading chip? And for Chipper Jones and Marcus Giles??

 

Marcus Giles isn't any betetr than Todd Walker. That's a bad idea right there.

 

I wouldn't even think about that trade.

 

But Giles is better than Walker.

 

He's faster. Better defensively. Walker has better power and patience.

 

I'd say it's a push.

 

IsoP

Giles: .170

Walker: .169

 

IsoD

Giles: .074

Walker: .050

 

I love Walker, but Giles is pretty much superior in every aspect.

[CuseCubFan69]

Because of the health concerns, I'm willing to look at Aramis being used in a move. However, I'm not going to take back the bigger health concern of Chipper in return.

 

Including ARam in a deal for ARod would be a different matter altogether.

 

I'm sure Anaheim could put together a package that would interest me for ARam (though it would be based mostly on their prospects).

 

There's a few others, but it would take a lot to get me to make a move.

 

I can't imagine Hendry trading Ramirez for prospects, especially with this manager.

 

If the Cubs are going to pay 17 and then 20 for a player I wouldn't do it for Jones but I would for ARod and maybe Manny if the deal is right.

Edited October 14, 2005 by CuseCubFan69

[USSoccer]

Because of the health concerns, I'm willing to look at Aramis being used in a move. However, I'm not going to take back the bigger health concern of Chipper in return.

 

Including ARam in a deal for ARod would be a different matter altogether.

 

I'm sure Anaheim could put together a package that would interest me for ARam (though it would be based mostly on their prospects).

 

There's a few others, but it would take a lot to get me to make a move.

 

I think the durability concerns are a little overblown. It would take 1 offseason of a decent conditioning/stretching program to prevent these pulls. It's not like he's Griffey, with demolished legs.