End of season MVP Discussion

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Well, the season is over, so we can now look at the overall numbers and discuss the MVP.

 

The three leading contenders seem to be Lee, Pujols, and A. Jones. Here's how they stack up.

 

Batting Average

1. Derrek Lee: 335

2. Albert Pujols: 330

3. Andruw Jones: 263

 

On Base %

1. Pujols: 430

2. Lee: 418

3. Jones: 347

 

Slugging %

1. Lee: 662

2. Pujols: 609

3. Jones: 575

 

OPS

1. Lee: 1080

2. Pujols: 1039

3. Jones: 922

 

Home runs

1. Jones: 51

2. Lee: 46

3. Pujols: 41

 

RBI

1. Jones: 128

2. Pujols: 117

3. Lee: 107

 

XBH

1. Lee: 99

2. Pujols: 81

3. Jones: 78

 

Runs Created

1. Lee: 144

2. Pujols: 142

3. Jones: 90

 

Win Shares

1 (tie) Lee: 36

Pujols: 36

3. Jones: 24

 

What is clearly evident is that Jones belongs no where in the discussion. His numbers in nearly every stat pale to Lee and Pujols. Where Lee and Pujols lead the league in Win Shares, Jones doesn't even crack the top ten.

 

Lee seems to have a very slight edge in the stats. The question is whether playing on a winning team should have any value and if so, how much value?

 

I'd give the MVP to Lee. He leads in OPS and runs created. On the other hand, I fully expect the BWAA to hand the award to Pujols.

[Geech]

Lee:

BRAA: 74

FRAA: 14

Net: 88

 

Pujols:

BRAA: 71

FRAA: 2

Net: 73

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Lee has a 75 to 70(roughly) advantage over Pujols in VORP as well. Jones is around 61.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The numbers are clearly in Lee's favor, not that it will matter much to the voters.

[JoshiQ]

I just wish they would clarify to the voters if it were most valuable player that got into the playoffs or the guy that had the best season overall....until then I find it hard to put a lot of emphasis on the MVP.

[Tim]

MVP to Pujols

Hank Aaron award to Lee

[Magnetic Curses]

MVP to Pujols

Hank Aaron award to Lee

 

it's the 98 sosa/mcgwire question. i'd do the same thing.

[OleMissCub]

I think Pujols wins it. I'm sure there are alot of voters who feel bad that he got shafted of the MVP all those years that Bonds won it.

 

In the American League I think A-Rod gets it. Ortiz has similar stats but I think voters, and myself, would be reluctant to give the MVP to a Designated Hitter.

[Derwood]

I agree with the idea that Pujols will win on a "make up call" for the last 2 seasons where he lost to Bonds.

 

It's also about perceived value vs. cold-hard stats. Pujols (and even Jones) are perceived as being more valuable because they play on winning teams. Jones will get quite a few votes since he really excelled at a time when there were 47 rookies on the team.

 

You all give the voters WAY too much credit for statistical analysis. Many probably don't even know what OBP is much less Win shares or VORP

[Exile on Waveland]

MVP to Pujols

Hank Aaron award to Lee

 

I agree. Jones doesn't deserve to be anywhere in the discussion, but Pujols' numbers are close enough to Lee's that the difference in team winning percentage would swing my vote.

 

I do hate to say it, though. I'm also sure quite a few will disagree with me, but it's not the silver slugger award, it's the MVP.

[gus_dog]

I don't subscribe to the 'make-up' thing to Pujols. Past years stand on their own merit and are irrelevant to this season (or at least, they should be).

 

Pujols had his opportunities those years, and maybe he should have won at least one, but IMO, it is still irrelevant to this year's discussion.

 

I believe Lee had a slightly better year, but since Pujols' team made the post-season, he will win.

[neely crenshaw]

jones led two of the glamour stats hr-rbi. his team made the playoffs with a cast of nobodies. most of the season he was alone in the order but still put up these stats. chipper had an bad year and was hurt. the rooks played well but look at their stats. no pitcher on the staff had a great year. one guy(jones) had an awesome year and that was it. they are in the payoffs simply because of jones. he will be the mvp in a not so close vote.

dlee should be player of the year but he won't be mvp, with this team his only chance would have been to win the triple crown or win 2 of them and make a run at the 3rd catagory.

 

right or not it will be jones.

[Geech]

I agree. Jones doesn't deserve to be anywhere in the discussion, but Pujols' numbers are close enough to Lee's that the difference in team winning percentage would swing my vote.

 

I do hate to say it, though. I'm also sure quite a few will disagree with me, but it's not the silver slugger award, it's the MVP.

 

What did Pujols do to help his team win that Lee did not? Lee was not only the better hitter, he was the much better defender.

[K-Town]

They both had great years.

 

Derrek Lee won't be the first player to be victimized (if you want to call it that) by playing for a bad team.

 

Giving the MVP award to Pujols isn't as much of a crime as some of you like to think. The fact that he was able to do what he does with players like John Rodriguez, Abraham Nunez, Mark Grudzielanek, and So Taguchi supporting in the lineup for a big chunk of the year is pretty impressive. Pujols made them all better, in my opinion. Pitchers knew from day 1 that Pujols could hurt them, so they pitch around him as much as possible, starting on opening day. Derrek Lee, meanwhile, came out of nowhere, so pitchers kept feeding him for the first 2 months of the season. After the All-Star break, when they started pitching to him the way they pitch to Pujols, Lee wasn't quite as good.

 

There is no "lifetime achievement award", so I don't have a problem with giving Pujols the edge because he does it year after year after year, even if it isn't exactly the intention of the yearly MVP award.

 

That said, it won't bother me at all if Lee wins.

[cubbieinexile]

For me what is clear from those stats is that Albert Pujols does not belong in this discussion. Both Lee and Pujols are first basemen and Lee has put up better numbers then Pujols, the only thing Pujols beats him on is OBP. So to me Pujols as no real case for MVP other then what his team as a whole did. AS for Andruw I think you are forgetting about the other side of the game, which is the defensive part of the game. Andruw a CF'er and DLee a first basemen.

 

Is it enough? I don't think so, what is odd or funny for me though is that if Griffey hadn't got himself injured at the end of the season he would probably look better then Jones. And he might even have had a valid shot at the MVP, though they never would have voted for him. Before his injury Griffey was getting red hot. He could have finished close to Lee in home run totals, had a better AVG, OBP, and SLG then Andruw Jones all while playing CF. If he had finished out the season I would be saying DLee vs Griffey not DLee vs. Andruw.

[gus_dog]

They both had great years.

 

Derrek Lee won't be the first player to be victimized (if you want to call it that) by playing for a bad team.

 

Giving the MVP award to Pujols isn't as much of a crime as some of you like to think. The fact that he was able to do what he does with players like John Rodriguez, Abraham Nunez, Mark Grudzielanek, and So Taguchi supporting in the lineup for a big chunk of the year is pretty impressive. Pujols made them all better, in my opinion. Pitchers knew from day 1 that Pujols could hurt them, so they pitch around him as much as possible, starting on opening day. Derrek Lee, meanwhile, came out of nowhere, so pitchers kept feeding him for the first 2 months of the season. After the All-Star break, when they started pitching to him the way they pitch to Pujols, Lee wasn't quite as good.

 

There is no "lifetime achievement award", so I don't have a problem with giving Pujols the edge because he does it year after year after year, even if it isn't exactly the intention of the yearly MVP award.

 

That said, it won't bother me at all if Lee wins.

 

I did not see any evidence whatsoever in this thread supporting your claim (see bolded sentence).

 

As for the rest of your statement about Lee's performance. I agree, to a lesser extent, but the Cubs hitters (and I use the term 'hitters' lightly) batting around of Lee were progressively worse as the season went on, which made it easier to pitch around him. I think that 'feeding him' is probably not the best choice, because it's not like they were throwing batting practice to him. They were throwing at the documented holes in his swing, which HE closed. Lee still had to hit them, and he did.

[gus_dog]

For me what is clear from those stats is that Albert Pujols does not belong in this discussion.

 

:shock:

 

Huh?

 

Pujols is so close in many catagories that the difference is almost statisically insignificant.

 

I give the overall nod to Lee due to his slugging stats and superior defence, but it's still a closer race, IMO.

[K-Town]

They both had great years.

 

Derrek Lee won't be the first player to be victimized (if you want to call it that) by playing for a bad team.

 

Giving the MVP award to Pujols isn't as much of a crime as some of you like to think. The fact that he was able to do what he does with players like John Rodriguez, Abraham Nunez, Mark Grudzielanek, and So Taguchi supporting in the lineup for a big chunk of the year is pretty impressive. Pujols made them all better, in my opinion. Pitchers knew from day 1 that Pujols could hurt them, so they pitch around him as much as possible, starting on opening day. Derrek Lee, meanwhile, came out of nowhere, so pitchers kept feeding him for the first 2 months of the season. After the All-Star break, when they started pitching to him the way they pitch to Pujols, Lee wasn't quite as good.

 

There is no "lifetime achievement award", so I don't have a problem with giving Pujols the edge because he does it year after year after year, even if it isn't exactly the intention of the yearly MVP award.

 

That said, it won't bother me at all if Lee wins.

 

I did not see any evidence whatsoever in this thread supporting your claim (see bolded sentence).

 

As for the rest of your statement about Lee's performance. I agree, to a lesser extent, but the Cubs hitters (and I use the term 'hitters' lightly) batting around of Lee were progressively worse as the season went on, which made it easier to pitch around him. I think that 'feeding him' is probably not the best choice, because it's not like they were throwing batting practice to him. They were throwing at the documented holes in his swing, which HE closed. Lee still had to hit them, and he did.

 

My point is that nobody anticipated Derrek Lee hurting them much when the season started, so they pitched to him. Pujols on the other hand, was considered dangerous from day one, so he was pitched accordingly. Lee's hot start was partially a result of him catching the league by surprise. In the 2nd half, when he was past the point of "surprising" anyone, the league adjusted, and slowed him down just a bit. Pujols wasn't going to "surprise" anybody, so they pitched him carefully all season long.

[sonofsamiam]

I think only Pujols and Lee deserve mention for this award, and the fact is they are really about even in value. Pujols is infinitesimally behind Lee in VORP and Runs Created, and final Win Shares are not out yet but my guess is they'll be even or almost even there, as well.

 

Yes, Lee is a better fielder, but at a position which is significantly easier than most other positions, so that's sort of a wash. Basically, IMO, their stats are so close to even, it would not be a terrible thing if Pujols wins, and this is one case where the tie going to the guy on the better team might make some sense.

 

I certainly hope Pujols wins rather than Jones, who does NOT deserve it, regardless of what many of ESPN's "analysts" seem to think. In any case, I think D-Lee is destined to come in 3rd in the final vote.

[woodprior04]

All I have to say is this-If Andruw Jones wins the MVP, it just proves that all these awards are becoming a joke. The guy's OBP is over 80 points lower than Pujols' and more than 70 points lower than Lee. He shouldn't even be considered. But since most of the voters seem to think avg, hr and rbi's are the only stats that matter, I fully expect him to win it.

[gus_dog]

My point is that nobody anticipated Derrek Lee hurting them much when the season started, so they pitched to him. Pujols on the other hand, was considered dangerous from day one, so he was pitched accordingly. Lee's hot start was partially a result of him catching the league by surprise. In the 2nd half, when he was past the point of "surprising" anyone, the league adjusted, and slowed him down just a bit. Pujols wasn't going to "surprise" anybody, so they pitched him carefully all season long.

 

I'd say that's pretty accurate.

 

As a fan, I'd vote for Lee as MVP. :P

 

As a baseball writer, I'd vote for Pujols.

 

Andruw Jones, 3rd place.

[K-Town]

My point is that nobody anticipated Derrek Lee hurting them much when the season started, so they pitched to him. Pujols on the other hand, was considered dangerous from day one, so he was pitched accordingly. Lee's hot start was partially a result of him catching the league by surprise. In the 2nd half, when he was past the point of "surprising" anyone, the league adjusted, and slowed him down just a bit. Pujols wasn't going to "surprise" anybody, so they pitched him carefully all season long.

 

I'd say that's pretty accurate.

 

As a fan, I'd vote for Lee as MVP. :P

 

As a baseball writer, I'd vote for Pujols.

 

Andruw Jones, 3rd place.

 

 

You'd be nuts not to vote for Lee, as a Cubs fan. He's deserving, even if you're not a Cubs fan.

 

History says that Pujols will probably win, however.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

When does the final voting commence?

[Catman61]

his team made the playoffs with a cast of nobodies. most of the season he was alone in the order but still put up these stats. chipper had an bad year and was hurt. the rooks played well but look at their stats. no pitcher on the staff had a great year. one guy(jones) had an awesome year and that was it. they are in the payoffs simply because of jones..

 

Problem is that just isn't true

3. He has had help. "He's carrying that team by himself," said both Vinny Castilla and Ken Griffey Jr. last week. And they're just the latest. It's conventional wisdom now. It's a given. Only problem is, it isn't true. It's a team thing in Atlanta. Though Jones has been very strong in the second half of the season, the idea that the Braves' division-title run is all his doing just doesn't hold water. It doesn't take into account the contributions of Marcus Giles (24 Win Shares), who leads the team in runs … Chipper Jones, who's got 10 home runs, 36 RBI and an OPS of 1.048 since the All-Star Break … Rafael Furcal, who's stolen 40 bases on the season and posted a .316/.392/.461 line in the second half … and Jeff Francoeur, who, in addition to hitting a ton since his call-up, has 11 assists in 49 games started.

 

4. There are some chinks in the armor. The on-base percentage isn't weak, but it's 50 and 70 points lower than Lee and Pujols respectively. That's a problem. Jones has managed only three stolen bases (while Lee and Pujols have 15 apiece) and attempted only six all year long. That's a problem. He's hitting just .275 (the last MVP to hit under .300 was Kevin Mitchell, and he had the gold tooth thing working as compensation). That's a problem. Yes, he's hitting a league-leading .304 in "close and late" situations, but he's managing just .222 with runners in scoring position (.208 for the season)(compared with Lee's .342 and Pujols' .336). That's a problem.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neel/050914&num=2

[Catman61]

When does the final voting commence?

Voting ended yesterday (Sun Oct 2)